My 1 granary Damascus should have 6162 people, in 5 large villas and 68 grand or large insulae, with most or all of the insulae grand.

20 vegetable and 20 pig farms can produce about 4% extra food. Vegetable and meat warehouses should help with stability as the granary will sometimes be full. The vegetable farms and vegetable warehouse are a little closer to the granary than the meat buildings, so vegetables are more likely to fill the granary than meat. Housing blocks with markets that are close to the granary, which includes the villa block, should easily be able to get both foods.

Housing blocks with markets that are far from the granary may have some trouble getting meat. But vegetables are preferred, so when a market is out of both foods, it should usually try to get vegetables (and often succeed). A few houses may run out of meat, but they should devolve only to large insulae. (If less than 10 houses are large insulae, and 10 seems like a lot, Prosperity will be 100.) Those housing blocks will also have at least one market that is too far from the granary to get food, so its buyer will only get non-food goods.

A fruit farm will store fruit in a warehouse, in case the Emperor requests fruit. (I'd guess that the Emperor is more likely to request fruit from the desert than vegetables or meat, and sending fruit will not disturb food distribution.) There will be 3 olive farms and 2 grape farms. 46 farms should fit around the west oasis.

There will be 3 timber yards. 6 furniture, 6 oil, and 4 wine workshops will produce enough to fill the export quotas, but no more (since I want to use workers to man towers). Exports will fall as houses evolve to high levels, but that's when taxes become large. 4 pottery workshops will use imported clay. 2 iron mines and 4 weapons workshops should keep the legionaries supplied.

Those housing blocks will also have at least one market that is too far from the granary to get food, so its buyer will only get non-food goods.

I thought the market will not collect non-food goods if it doesn't have source of food. It will search for food indefinitely, doesn't it?

I thought the market will not collect non-food goods if it doesn't have source of food.

The original unpatched version (1.0) of C3 may have worked that way. But in the patched version (1.1), which most players use, a market can get non-food goods even if there is no food available, as long as its trader (or buyer) has gone by houses that need those goods. My Palace Peaks has 12 markets that get only non-food goods (while the other 24 markets get only food).

However, in Pharaoh, a bazaar trader is not sent out unless the bazaar has something in it. Since a bazaar won't try to get non-food goods until the trader goes by a house that needs that good, it must get food first. Once the bazaar has obtained food and its trader has gone by a house that needs non-food goods, it will continue to get those goods even if it does not have any food.

Hey Brugle, how are you. Been a long time! I just listened to some C3 music on Youtube and thought to drop by C3H for a look.

Really cool to see that you're still pushing the limits of this game and your skills with great new ideas. This is a very interesting challenge. Good luck with it!

Hi Duan Xuan. It's nice that old-timers drop by occasionally.

The 1 granary challenge was proposed by Zarquan. I don't know how much trouble I'll have building Damascus, but the design so far has been interesting.

I edited the opening post to indicate that a long walk is OK if it doesn't do anything useful. Sometimes an accidental long walk is hard to avoid.

The vegetable, pig, and fruit farms are on two loops northeast and southeast of the west lake, with the granary between them. The olive and grape farms are next to them, south of the west lake.

The north housing block is close to the granary and supplies labor access to farms on the more northern of the loops and to the towers guarding the two northern approaches.

The center housing block is close to the granary and supplies labor access to farms on the more southern of the loops and to the olive and grape farms. It has the villas and hippodrome.

The south housing block is far from the granary and will supply labor access to the towers guarding the south and east approaches. It has the senate and colosseum, which are near the villas, hippodrome, and governor's residence. This should make a fine city center.

My tentative plan was to have a west housing block, far from the granary, to also supply labor access to the olive and grape farms. However, it appears to be unnecessary--the olive and grape farms should eventually get good labor access from the center block alone, although it may take longer to get them started. It would be more efficient to not have the west block, but that would mean putting a lot of temples around the other blocks (which I think can be done).

Grand insulae must be prevented from evolving to villas. In the center housing block, villas are the only houses exposed to priests of multiple gods. In the north housing block, all the houses on the outside of the loop road are exposed to priests of multiple gods, so I carefully controlled their desirability. Following some of my usual rules (such as no house is next to bare ground or an unplazaed road), I found that fairly difficult. Therefore, for the first time, I used a desirability calculator during design--it certainly was easier! The south and (if it exists) west housing blocks haven't been designed yet.

A city would naturally develop around the lake rather than farther into the desert (which requires a longer wall). My emphasizing efficiency over aesthetics and defense was silly. My Damascus will have a small west housing block (and near the lake is a good place for several Neptune temples).

The fruit farm may be moved from the southern farm loop to near the west housing block.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 08-27-2017 @ 12:51 PM).]

To get more workers for towers, there will be 2 more grand or large insulae (for a total of 70), making 6330 people. Barely 1% extra food will be produced. Prosperity 100 will require fewer than 7 large insulae.

The south housing block is designed. Almost half of its grand insulae are exposed to priests of multiple gods. (Just for fun, the colosseum is touching the hospital and is the only undesirable building touching the governor's palace.)

One of the villas (in the center block) has enough desirability to not devolve but will need to expand over gardens to evolve.

The west housing block hasn't been designed yet, but its markets will be too far from the wine warehouse to get wine.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 09-02-2017 @ 03:21 PM).]

The design is done. There will be 5 to 7 academies and 7 to 13 schools, but schools plus academies cannot exceed 18. (Each place where an academy or school may not be built is mostly or entirely forest.)

A "double wall" surrounds the city: at any place, an enemy must destroy two structures (wall, tower, or gatehouse) to gain entry. There is a legionary fort and a javelin fort near both places (north and south) where the city is close to the map edge.

Warehouses will collect some of all locally produced goods, in case a request is received. Fruit does not have its own warehouse: small amounts will be stored in several other warehouses.

My biggest question is the performance of markets that are far from the granary. We'll see.

I tried to minimize engineer posts (6) and prefectures (11)--hopefully fire protection will be OK. One farm loop road has 52 road tiles, with the prefect rotating both ways. The west housing block loop road has 68 road tiles, but the prefect always rotates clockwise.

No identical education, entertainment, or religious buildings touch.

Buildings are in tighter groups than in my 1 granary Tarsus. Each bath house is touching a barber and is separated from a clinic by no more than 4 tiles. Each set of education buildings are touching or are separated by only a road, and has at least one school and at least one library or academy.

Quoted from Brugle:

.., but the prefect always rotates clockwise.

Can that be predicted by understanding this “Ambulomancy” thing? Then I have to study this

Quoted from trolgu:

Quoted from Brugle:

.., but the prefect always rotates clockwise.

Can that be predicted by understanding this “Ambulomancy” thing?

Sort of. You need that knowledge, but there is also some C3 specific knowledge that is not covered in Ambulomancy since it is written for Pharaoh walkers. Specifically, Pharaoh walkers who follow roads do not cut corners (except in a very unlikely case). C3 walkers who follow roads do cut corners when they are heading for a specific place.

The rest of this post uses terms from Ambulomancy. You may want to skip it.

When a walker in a grounded walk reaches the walk target, it shifts to random mode. At that point it does not reverse direction. In Pharaoh, if there isn't an intersection there, it will continue in the same direction on the road. However, in C3, the walker may arrive at the walk target having cut a corner, so it may go back along the road (since it isn't reversing its direction). The direction that the C3 walker follows in that case is the first one of these: NE, SE, SW, NW).

For example, the west loop road extends from the prefecture to the SE and SW. On 3 of his walks he starts out walking SE and continues around the loop clockwise. On 1 of his walks he start out walking SW, where the road shifts to going NW he cuts the corner going W and reaches his walk target. At this point he chooses SE (this doesn't reverse his direction since he is heading W) and goes back by the prefecture and around the loop clockwise. Note that a Pharaoh fire marshal would not do that--since he doesn't cut corners, he would reach the walk target heading NW, so instead of reversing his direction he continues to go NW and goes around the loop counterclockwise.

I haven't figured out what happens when a C3 walker heading for his walk target encounters a gatehouse while cutting a corner. As before, it doesn't reverse its direction but I don't think it follows the same choice described above. Perhaps some day I will investigate this, but it was easier for me to design 1 granary Damascus to avoid the problem.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 09-11-2017 @ 01:19 PM).]

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation
I am very curious about your version of Damascus.

I realized that trees cannot cover meadow and there is no need for the exception on not using future knowledge. I edited the opening post.


How to begin? The first industries will be grapes/wine and olives/oil, with wine and oil sold to Tarsus caravans. I will try to get blessings from Neptune, Mars, and Mercury.

The minimum time to satisfy the Peace requirement is 12 years. Prosperity 100 in 12 years is a reasonable goal.

I'd like to get Prosperity 6 at the end of the first year, which means some houses must be watered. Not counting the cost and workers of a fountain, watering the west block is cheap: 82 Dn for a reservoir and deleting a tree. Watering the rest of the city is expensive: about 448 Dn for much of the north block, about 544 Dn more for the rest of the north block and a part of the center block, about 406 Dn more for the south block, and about 410 Dn more for most of the center block (which, along with the west block, supplies labor access to the first industries).

The west block will have 4 grand insulae, and with 3 vacant lots placed for each, can have 12 large tents. With those, 48 small tents will give a prosperity cap of 6. Even if all of the small tents are 1x1, the population will be 324, which should be enough to get through the 200-300 push. However, many of the initial vacant lots in other blocks will be placed in 2x2 squares, and some of them are likely to merge. Even if only a single 2x2 small tent forms early, that will allow a population of 339, which will make it easier to get through the 200-300 push.

The end of the first year should have 12 1x1 large tents (in the west block) and 48 small tents (hopefully, some of them 2x2).


Construction time!

Damascus starts (at Very Hard difficulty) with 0 people, Cu 0, Pr 0, Pe 0, Fa 40, and 4500 Dn.


3 squares of four tents merged from the initial 39 vacant lots, allowing plenty of vacant lots in the 200-300 push. Therefore, for the first time at Very Hard difficulty (since their avoidance in my 1 granary Tarsus was accidental), I deliberately avoided the "People disgruntled" and "Emigration" messages (which required sending 3 immigrants on a longer path through the woods, where aqueducts and roads will be put later). Peace 44 (the maximum) in 12 years is now a goal.

1st Year (50 AD): The grape and olive industries were completed. The wine, oil, and pig industries were begun. Blessings were received from Mercury (Jun) and Ceres (Oct). The trade route to Tarsus was opened. The year ended with 414 people (84 in large tents, 330 in small tents), Cu 30, Pr 6, Pe 2, Fa 39, and 795 Dn.


In my next post, perhaps tomorrow, I will explain why it's taken me so long to report.

I finished the first year several days ago, but before reporting I decided that my west housing block design was faulty in two ways. First, the trader from every market (including the one that is too far from the granary to get food) did not pass all houses on every walk. Giving a market a guaranteed supply of non-food goods is not much use if its trader doesn't pass houses often enough! So I decided to modify the design to let all of the markets get food, have traders from all markets pass by all houses on every walk, and control house desirability so they could get wine (which allows the markets to be within range of the wine warehouse).

Note that the south housing block design is unchanged. With 18 grand insulae, I think it is possible that all markets will concentrate on getting food and simultaneously run out of a non-food good. Also, the trader from the market that is too far from the granary goes by every house on every walk.

Second, I am concerned about not having enough schools. Having a few more possible schools would ease my mind.

I designed a new west housing block, ignoring what I already built. It has a shorter loop road, since it doesn't go almost to the map edge. Only a few things would need to be deleted (including a few large tents), but I do not like abandoning my "no delete" rule (especially this early in a mission).

Starting the mission over was more appealing. The play would be very similar, so it shouldn't take me too long. For a while this was my plan, which is why I delayed reporting the first year's results.

However, I eventually decided to modify the west housing block design without changing anything that already exists. This new design has a loop road of 70 tiles (2 tiles longer) and could have 1 or 2 additional schools: up to 15 schools with 5 academies, up to 14 schools with 6 academies, up to 12 schools with 7 academies.

There was a protestor in Mar (and more later). The goal of Peace 44 in 12 years has failed.

2nd Year (51 AD): The timber industry was completed. The furniture, pottery, and vegetable industries were begun. The hippodrome, senate, governor's palace, barracks, and cavalry fort were built. Blessings were received from Venus (Jan), Neptune (Aug), and Mars (Dec). Taxes were collected. The trade route to Hierosolyma was opened. Contaminated water reduced city health from excellent to poor. The year ended with 998 people (105 in large hovels, 624 in small hovels, 84 in large tents, 185 in small tents), Cu 38, Pr 14, Pe 3, Fa 38, and 792 Dn.


I should have more play time now.

I've had some play time, but most of it was spent figuring out what will be done over 3 years in the future!

So far no house has had vacancies at the end of a year (to avoid creating more children), which will continue as much as possible. When 3 tiles of an eventual grand insula can hold 1x1 medium insulae, they can be evolved to a large insula which will fill before the end of the year. The problem occurs when only 2 tiles of the house are watered. (The city has 2 houses with only 1 watered tile, and I've given up on them.)

The north block is farthest from the entry point. To fill a large/grand insula with 2 watered tiles before the end of the year, 2 1x1 small tents are added to the 2 1x1 medium insulae. I haven't figured out how to do that for all of the houses with 2 watered tiles, but I intend to do it for most of them. Depending on which houses with 2 watered tiles are evolved, some other north block houses will not be started at that time, to make the paths of immigrants shorter. (Some of the more distant houses may not be filled by the end of the year, since there is some "random" delay before an immigrant enters the map--I can only try and see.) My concern is placing vacant lots (mostly in the north block) near the end of the 3rd year.

Immigrants get to north block houses by walking through the center block. Recently I changed which center block houses will first be evolved to large villas, but that changed immigrant paths, so I had to reconsider the north block all over again!

Invasions stop immigration, so these evolutions will be done at the beginning of a year without a scheduled invasion. So far, invasions have been scheduled in the 5th and 6th years, so the earliest is the 7th year. (I assume there will be some years with no invasions.)

By the way, I am not only remembering my C3 skills, I am learning new ones. When multiple houses could evolve at the same time into the same space, the one that evolves is the first in the building list (which is often, but not always, the first one built). I wish I had known this technique earlier!

3rd Year (52 AD): Both javelin forts were built. The 2nd blessing was received from Ceres (Aug). The year ended with 1661 people (126 in medium villas, 80 in small villas, 20 in a medium insula, 19 in a small insula, 51 in small casas, 1125 in large hovels, 156 in small hovels, 84 in large tents), Cu 52, Pr 24, Pe 8, Fa 37, and 1627 Dn.

4th Year (53 AD): The iron, weapon, wine, and oil industries were completed. The military academy was built. The 2nd blessing was received from Neptune (May). Everyone was taxed. The Emperor requested 10 weapons. An iron mine caved in. The year ended with 2230 people (180 in large villas, 84 in medium villas, 40 in a small villa, 84 in a large insula, 60 in medium insulae, 57 in small insulae, 76 in large casas, 952 in small casas, 645 in large hovels, 52 in small hovels), Cu 47, Pr 34, Pe 13, Fa 36, and 14488 Dn.

Another mistake: a road tile was placed 1 off diagonally, which caused a west block market trader to not go by houses on 1 out of 4 of her walks. This won't be corrected (other markets should handle the load), so the "no delete" rule is intact.


5th Year (54 AD): All three legionary forts were built. Egyptian invaders were defeated without waking Mars's spirit. Contaminated water reduced city health from almost perfect to below average. The year ended with 2683 people (270 in large villas, 42 in a medium villa, 40 in a small villa, 84 in a grand insula, 336 in large insulae, 95 in small insulae, 1700 in small casas, 90 in large hovels, 26 in small hovels), Cu 59, Pr 44, Pe 18, Fa 35, and 17505 Dn.


[Corrected typo.]

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 11-11-2017 @ 03:13 PM).]

6th Year (55 AD): The first towers were built. Egyptian invaders were defeated without waking Mars's spirit. 10 weapons were dispatched. The year ended with 3007 people (270 in large villas, 42 in a medium villa, 40 in a small villa, 504 in grand insulae, 336 in large insulae, 1020 in medium insulae, 247 in small insulae, 493 in small casas, 15 in a large hovel, 40 in small tents), Cu 56, Pr 54, Pe 23, Fa 42, and 18749 Dn.


[Corrected typo.]

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 11-11-2017 @ 03:15 PM).]

7th Year (56 AD): The fruit and vegetable industries were completed. The colosseum was built. All forts were full. The 3rd blessing was received from Ceres (Mar). The Emperor requested 10 weapons. The year ended with 3681 people (270 in large villas, 42 in a medium villa, 40 in a small villa, 1176 in grand insulae, 1242 in large insulae, 240 in medium insulae, 114 in small insulae, 19 in a large casa, 493 in small casas, 15 in a large hovel, 30 in small tents), Cu 56, Pr 63, Pe 28, Fa 41, and 21179 Dn.

For the first time, 2 houses had vacancies at the end of the year. 1 was inevitable and 1 had bad luck (its immigrant families took too long to appear after they were created), while 2 other questionable houses had good luck.

For the first time, 2 houses had vacancies at the end of the year.

What is the benefit of avoiding vacancies at the end of the year? Or you want just to have accurate statistics?

Quoted from jaroslav80:

What is the benefit of avoiding vacancies at the end of the year?

Births occur shortly after the start of a year, and only occur in vacancies. Each of the houses with vacancies (one with 6 and one with 12) caused 4 births, which means 8 more school children (although 1 might die if contaminated water occurs again). Since the number of schools is limited, I want to minimize school children.

Deaths occur at the same time, and people can be born in the vacancies created by deaths, although in this case, with a young city and nearly perfect city health, there were no deaths. (In the 3rd and 6th years, when contaminated water the year before greatly reduced city health, there were a lot of deaths and births.)

8th Year (57 AD): A local uprising was defeated, with Mars's spirit's help. 10 weapons were dispatched. Contaminated water reduced city health from perfect to average. The year ended with 4036 people (450 in large villas, 2856 in grand insulae, 168 in large insulae, 220 in medium insulae, 57 in small insulae, 272 in small casas, 13 in a small hovel), Cu 52, Pr 73, Pe 33, Fa 48, and 23459 Dn.