I may or may not have an answer for you. From all of my observations into this matter, it always seemed that the bazaar collector would choose the food that was first delivered to the granary. In your case, that happens to be grain. It could also be quantity of available food which determines their preferences.

Well, I'll let the others lend an ear to this matter as well. Perhaps I'm right, perhaps not. Hehe.

Welcome Don't be a mushroom, come out into the light !

I havn't got a clue what the answer is , but will be interested to hear one someone does explain....

V-AIA where are you when we need you !!!

One thing I have observed along the same lines is that if you set a granary to "get" multiple foods they tend to wander around trying to get the least available foodstuff, anyone else noticed this ???

For brand new housing that doesn't have any food at all, I suspect the algorithim simply sends them to the closest source of food.

If houses has more types of food than it needs, the residents probably eat only the most preferred food(s). I would guess that eating preferences are in the order that foods are listed in "special orders" (most preferred at the top). A bazaar will, of course, resupply houses with foods that are eaten, and eventually get more of those foods.

Afterburner,
If a buyer brings back a lot of a food and the trader doesn't distribute it immediately, then the bazaar will still have plenty when the buyer leaves again. In this case, the buyer will get a second food, which may be distributed to the same houses that already have the first food, even though some of the houses that the trader passes don't have any food. This happened to me in Behdet, and since then I generally haven't supplied multiple foods to houses that don't need them.

Welcome to the forums.

Your question brings up a lot of interest and some questions.

Question: If a home has two food types will they extinguish one type completely before they start on the other. In other words, they want more than one food type (health reasons), but will they only eat the second type when the first type is extinguished. Not sure what occurs but I think they eat one and then the other. What have others seen?

Point: You can always force the people to eat the food types you want by just commanding the bazaar buyers to buy only that type of food.

An approach to take is to have one housing block dedicated to grain, the other to lettuce. This would guarentee lettuce would be consummed almost equally with grain. Only drawback is people would have only one food type (health).

Or within one block, have two bazaars, one dedicated to lettuce and the other to grain. It would be interesting to see how many trips each buyers makes to the grainary and what the people prefer.

Good gaming,
Vriesea

[This message has been edited by Vriesea (edited 04-06-2001 @ 04:24 PM).]

I did make a couple of quick observations. I filled a granary with ½ grain and ½ game meat. I had the bazaar set to buy grain only. Once all of the houses had a stockpile of grain, I changed the bazaar setting to buy grain and game meat. On the next trip to the granary, the bazaar lady picked up game meat only. The game meat was quickly delivered to about 2/3 of the houses. The bazaar buyers continued to pick up game meat until the granary was empted of it, and then returned to buying grain. The game meat was delivered to houses until it was depleted. However, the game meat kept going to the same houses, even though there were other houses that had only grain.

I don’t like this arrangement. It makes it difficult to control distribution. Here is what I intend to do when more than one food type is available:

In housing blocks that require only one food type for evolution, I am going to build one bazaar and set it to buy only one type of food. This will handle all housing up to and including Common Residences. At Common Residence, the single bazaar will be delivering one type of food, pottery and beer. With good access to granaries and storage yards, this is a reasonable workload for one bazaar. I know that additional food types are supposed to improve health, but with adequate coverage by a physician (and apothecary when required) I have never had health problems in my cities.

For housing between Spacious Residence and Stately Manor, I will have two bazaars. One bazaar will be set to buy food type “A”, pottery and linen. The other bazaar can buy food type “B” and beer and luxury goods.

For Estate blocks, I will add a third bazaar. Most likely, the bazaars will be set up like this: Bazaar #1 buys food type “A” and pottery, Bazaar #2 buys food type “B” and beer, Bazaar #3 buys food type “C”, linen and luxury goods. This appears to be a light workload for all three bazaars. If I am having trouble getting delivery of a certain type of good, it can always add that good to a second, or third, bazaar.

Setting up things this way makes it easier to control food distribution IMO.

I didn't make any new observations in the last time, but I was always working on an assumption (based partially on observations I did when the game was new and partially on experience from C3), that:
1) any "eating" housing level will accept any type of food and any number of food varieties (up to 4, of course), if this food type is in bazaar in the moment when seller is passing the house
2) food preferences are from left to right (as shown on bazaar or house infopanel); if a house has more food types stocked than it requires, it only consumes the more preferred food types - e.g. if a cottage has grain and meat, it will only consume grain until all is eaten, and then starts eating meat
3) multiple food influence on health is based either on supplies in granaries or in houses, but in any case it does not play any role whether the food types are in the same house (i.e. 1 block eating only lettuce and 1 block eating only grain still constitute a city that has 2 food types, with all the beneficiary effects on health)
4) bazaar lady can fetch multiple types of food or goods on one trip, and even visit several granaries/SY's

It would be interesting to verify (or reject) at least some of these assumptions... anyone wants to try? I don't have time for it right now .

Angel Baltic

I am certain I read somewhere that the preferred food type for any house is the one that it first receives. Even if supplied with a second food type, the first will remain the preferred food type as long as it lasts. Once the first type runs out, the house will then begin using the second food, which then becomes the preferred food type as long as it lasts. Even if the house is restocked with the original first and preferrred food, it will still continue using the second as long as it is supplied.

I don't recall ever seeing this in operation, but I have always assumed that it was true.

In reference to your first paragraph, that is exactly what happened. This is precisely the point that I was trying to make. If a bazaar seller passes a house with food or goods that the house can use, the house will receive the food and/or goods. I was hoping that, as the bazaar seller continued her loop back to the bazaar, she would notice the houses that she passed that didn’t have any of the food and/or goods that was in the bazaar, and give these houses priority on the next trip. Unfortunately, this doesn’t appear to be the case.

This is why, in a large housing block, you can end up with some houses with a lot of food and some houses with none. A house is not “passed by” until each resident in a house has 6 units of each type of food available. The houses at the end of the loop can remain without food until the houses at the beginning of the loop are filled to capacity. For this reason, it is better (at least initially) to provide only one food type to a housing block.

For example, a 2x2 Meager Shanty (food and water only) can have a maximum population of 28 residents. If you are providing one type of food, this house will have to have 168 units of food until it is “passed by” and the houses at the end of the loop receive food. If you are providing two types of food, this same house must have 336 units of food before it is “passed by”. It could, therefore, take twice as long for all houses to receive food.

The advantage of providing more than one type of food is that the stockpile of food in a house is greater. A maximum of 6 units of each type of food can be stockpiled for each resident. In case of a food shortage, a house with one food type can go for two years without being restocked. If this house is fully stockpiled with two food types, it has a 4-year supply of food. Three food types equal 6 years, etc.

As for your observations 1 through 4, I can verify 1 and 4. For #3, the food influence on health, I have no doubt that you are correct. I have never checked it, but I was assuming that it was on a house-by-house basis. Citywide coverage makes more sense and I am sure that you are correct. The idea of food preferences (#2) is an interesting one, and I will try and verify it this weekend. I will work on this one. You can spend your time getting the competition ready.

I didn’t see your reply until after I made mine. I am glad that you posted your thoughts on the subject. I will be sure and check out this option as well. If you are correct, there still remain a couple of unanswered questions.

If food type “A” is the first one received, and the house obtains food types “B” and “C” while it still has a supply of “A”, which one will it consume when it runs out of “A”? Will it be the one that is “higher on the preference list” or will it be the first one that the house was supplied with after “A”?

In the above example, assuming that “B” was the second choice, and the house was restocked with “A” and then runs out of “B”, will “A” remained the preferred food type, or will the residents go on to “C” because they had it before they received the restock of “A”? (Did that make any sense?)

Some of you may be thinking, “What difference does it make?” For housing blocks where two or more types of food are required, it could make a huge difference. If we can determine how food preferences are established, then we can be sure that the preferred food is one that we can produce in abundance and not one that we have to import. Properly managed, we could keep the block supplied with the preferred food so that the imported food was never consumed. Once all of the houses in a block were fully stockpiled with the imported food, the import cost of the food would drop to zero. Equally important is when available food imports are limited.

First of all thanks for researching this topic. It is very much appreciated.

You mentioned the Meager Shanty requiring 168 units of food. My question is what happens to this shanty on subsequent trips by the Bazaar distributor?

In other words, If she passes again and say the shanty now has 152 units of food, is she required to pass out another 16 units to 168. Or is there some range of satisfied food level that the bazaar distribtor checks on subsequent runs.

If it appears she always checks for the 168 level, then your houses at the end of the run are always going to take longer to fill. If there was a range say of 140 to 168 then a house at 152 could be passed over and houses at the end of the run would be serviced sooner and evolve sooner.

With Impressions "Upgraded Bazaars" this would help speed the evolution as the bazaar distributors could be teleported passed the food established houses and into areas not yet visited (hopefully teleported into the same block).

What you have researched seems to imply that for an equal number of bazaars in a housing block, for evolution purposes it is more efficient to places them as close to the distribution center as possible. Thus if you have two bazaars it is more efficient to place them together nearest the distribution center then to place one on one side of the block and the other on the other side of the block. As the time to stock the bazaar is more important then where the bazaar is located (assuming no teleporting).

Good gaming,
Vriesea

[This message has been edited by Vriesea (edited 04-13-2001 @ 03:56 PM).]

In the brief time that I have already spent looking into this, it appears that food is indeed rationed out among several houses. That is, the bazaar delivery lady does not give a house its full compliment of food on the first pass. I will try and determine how much each resident receives on each pass.

I had already decided to run my tests with unimproved bazaars. Teleporting bazaar ladies are too unreliable and unpredictable to counted on to perform in any particular fashion. If fact, a teleporting bazaar lady would make my observations much more difficult. You are correct that teleporting to a previously unvisited area of the housing block could actually improve distribution.

As far as the location of multiple bazaars in a block goes, locating them close to the entrance will certainly improve the speed in which the bazaar receives food and goods. As for distribution to the houses, it depends. If the bazaars are located next to each other and the delivery ladies walk in opposite directions, then more houses will receive food more quickly. If the bazaars are located on opposite sides of the block, and the delivery ladies walk in the same direction, then more houses will receive food quicker. Even if you ran a test at the beginning of a new block to see which way they would go most often, this could change as the game progresses. Since this behavior cannot be controlled, I would go with the one that I could be sure of. Locate the bazaars as near to the entrance point of the block as possible.

I just love trying to figure this stuff out. What a great game!

In such system, one doesn't pay that much attention to which food is eaten first, and if I have to import some food, then it is always either the only food for a block that is disconnected from production, or additional food type required for evolution (in which case both types are consumed).

Oh, BTW, I forgot one thing... but that is not an assumption anyway, that is in the manual or help somewhere:
5) If the food requires multiple food types, usage is divided between the given (required) number of food types equally. E.g., residences above common always consume 1/2 of the quota in one food type and 1/2 in another.

Angel Baltic

What did you expect, a short and quick answer? You know me (and this game) better than that!

I built 2 housing blocks in Sandbox. One I started on fish and the other on grain. I raised both to Spacious Homestead level, and when they had both stabilized with a large food supply, I changed the bazaar orders to buying both food types. When houses in both blocks had a large supply of both foods, between 200 and 400 units, I deleted all the bazaars to prevent further food distribution. I rebuilt them to continue distributing pottery. Then I turned up the game speed and watched the houses to see how the food was being used.

All houses in both blocks ran out of grain while they still had a large supply of fish. This seems to do away with the idea of the preferred food type being the first one used that I posted earlier. It would seem to indicate that food is consumed in the order listed in the bazaar.

The same test in a housing block stocked with all food types
should prove or disprove that this is the case.

However, I am not sure how a bazaar (or market) trader delivers food to houses. In my observations (limited and quite possibly wrong), it appeared that a Pharaoh bazaar trader delivered all foods up to the limit (6 units per person of each type) if the bazaar had them (just like for goods), but a C3 market trader sometimes did not.

When given a choice, I always place bazaars (or markets) close to food/good sources. Even if the rules for distributing food to houses are not simple, making the buyer go a lot farther to get food is a big disadvantage.

In my experience, bazaar trader teleportation is unreliable and too infrequent to be useful.

The way that I typically build (supplying houses with only the number of foods they need), food preferences don't matter much, but there are situations where food preferences might make a significant difference. For a simple example, assume that everyone will live in few enough spacious apartments (no papyrus) to fit in a single block, we can't grow enough food, we can import lots of another food, and we want to import as little as possible in the long run. If the imported food is preferred, we have to decide how many houses will eat each food (difficult if food production is variable, as in most floodplain farming) and keep imported food away from those houses that shouldn't have it. However, if the locally-grown food is preferred, there is a simpler solution--give both foods to all houses, so all will be supplied with imported food but will eat it only when the locally-grown food runs out.

Food preferences can also matter while multiple-food houses are being created. For example, assume that some spacious residences are to be built, there is plenty of one food, and barely enough of the other. If the abundant food is preferred, then food should not be a problem--evolve all houses to common residences, give them both foods, but don't give them dentists until they are fully stocked with the scarce food. However, if the scarce food is preferred, getting to the same final state is trickier.

The citizens of Pharaoh have a preference in the food types that they eat. They are, in order:

Grain
Meat
Lettuce
Chickpeas
Pomegranates
Figs
Fish
Game Meat

If a type of housing only requires one type of food, the residents in that housing will only eat the most preferred type of food until it is depleted. This is true no matter how many types of food the house contains. Once the most preferred food is entirely consumed, the residents will start eating the second most preferred food. It doesn’t matter which food was consumed or delivered first.

If two types of food are required for a level of housing, the residents will only eat the two that are most preferred, no matter how many food types are available. They will consume the two types of food at an equal rate. The same is true for Palatial Estates, where three types of food are required. Even if there are four food types available, only the three most preferred will be eaten. These three types of food will be consumed at the same rate.

Examples:

A Common Residence (requires one type of food) has both Chickpeas and Figs. The Chickpeas, and Chickpeas only, will be eaten until they are entirely depleted. Only when there are no more Chickpeas, will the Figs be consumed. If Meat is delivered to this Common Residence while it still has a store of Chickpeas and Figs, the residents will stop eating Chickpeas and start consuming Meat (because it is a more preferred food type). There are no exceptions to this rule.

A Stately Manor (two types of food required) has Meat, Lettuce and Fish available. The residents will consume Meat and Lettuce in equal proportions until one of the food types is depleted. If they run out of Lettuce, then they will eat Meat and Fish. If they still have Meat, Lettuce and Fish, and then Grain is delivered, they will stop eating Lettuce and consume only Grain and Meat.

So, consumption is very straightforward: The most preferred food(s) are eaten first. The bazaar ladies who visit the granaries and storage yards, and those that deliver food to the houses have a different priority. The bazaar ladies try to provide the most variety in food types.

Example: A housing type only requires one type of food, but four food types are available. The bazaar buyer will pick up equal portions of the two most preferred foods on her first trip, and will pick up the third and fourth most preferred food types on the second trip. Food will be distributed to housing in the same manor.

I don’t see how understanding all this gives us any advantage in playing the game. But, I have always considered knowledge a good thing. If nothing else, I feel confident that the theory that I outlined in reply #7 is the proper course to follow.

So, the way I understand it is like leaving a kid at home alone and giving him three types of food - ice cream, cereal and broccoli. The kid will eat ice cream first, then go with cereal and when he becomes really hungry, he (she) will eat broccoli.

Very useful information for me, thanks. That is because I always try to plant farms equally if there are several types of foods availible. Even if only one type is needed.

Thanks for the information. I also played around with a sandbox version and saw the same things your did.

Here are a couple of other interesting observations. They may already be published somewhere but I thought they were worthy of displaying here. Note these observations were all made at Common Shanty to Common Apartment level, where only one food type is required.

1) Concerning the distribution. Amount of goods bazaar ladies supplies each house is a function of population of that house. She will try and provide each person with 6 units of food at every house. So if a Meager Shanty has a population of 36 the target food supplied to that house (2x2) is 216 food units (216 food units = 36 people x 6 units).

2) Food is consumed at .25 food units per month. Therefore a Meager Shanty will consume 9 units of food per month (9 = 0.25 consume/person x 36 people). Note: If the housing requires two food types I am assuming that number is divided by two and subtracted from the two preferred food types.

3) Food is delivered to a house no matter how little was consummed. In other words, she will always caculate the 6 food units times the populace of the house and provide the difference. Note: Food in a house seems to be calculated at the end of a month. The bazaar lady will check the population of the house (could have increased or decreased) and provide the difference between the end of the month food and the new calculated value based on the population.

Some interesting observations:

I was very surprised at the rate of consumption and the amount of food that can be stored at a house.

For example:

A Common Apartment with 80 people consumes 240 food units per year (240 food = 80 people x 0.25 food/month x 12 months).

If that house was stocked with 4 food types you could store 1920 food units in that house (1920 food = 80 people x 6 food units x 4 food types.

Therefore, that Common Apartment could survive on it's stocked food for 8 game years before needing another visit by the bazaar lady.

Also playing around with the sandbox let me appreciate more what is meant by filling the pipeline. This is the amount of time it takes to visit every house and provide it with it required food stocks. Or, a better way of putting it would be the time it takes a bazaar lady to eventually pass through all houses on the block and end up with a surplus. In the example I was playing with it took the bazaar lady 5 trips before she could go through all houses and end up with a surplus. Note: The block I was using eventually evolved to 20 Common Residences with 1600 population. In addition, I use 1 bazaar with unlimitd food supplies.

Well, it was interesting but as VitruviusAIA indicated it probably won't provide any advantage in playing the game.

Good gaming,
Vriesea

In reading your findings I think there is one point that would provide an advantage. You state in your example:

"A housing type only requires one type of food, but four food types are available. The bazaar buyer will pick up equal portions of the two most preferred foods on her first trip, and will pick up the third and fourth most preferred food types on the second trip. Food will be distributed to housing in the same manor."

If this is true, then it is more efficient in the evolution of houses to set the bazaar to only buy one preferred food.

In otherwords, If a Meager Shanty qualifies for 192 food units (populace of 32), and the bazaar lady passes it 2 times she will provide the house with roughly 768 food units (768 = 192 x 4 food types). That means other houses downstream will take much longer to evolve. If on the other hand she has one food type she will only provide it roughly 192 units and have more left over to provide the other houses downstream which will evolve sooner.

If this is correct it makes good sense to set a bazaar to only buy a single food good and set it to buy a 2nd, or 3rd good when the housing needs to be evolved. Also, like Baltic seemed to indicate multiple foods are credited towards health by what is in the grainary and SYs, so you would not be penalized as such.

Later post ....

Well, I've figured this one out. Went home and played around with it some more and observed that the bazaar buyer will get three times the number of food units if she has access to three goods.

Observed buyer bringing back 900 grain, 700 chickpees, and 700 fish all in one trip. The bazaar distributor then passed it out at the same rate as if she only had one food type. So I can only conclude the evolution of housing is not dependent on the number of food types accessable by the bazaar.

Good gaming,
Vriesea

[This message has been edited by Vriesea (edited 04-17-2001 @ 03:49 AM).]

Thanks for clearing the matter, Vitruvius and Vriesea!
I was pretty sure this is how it works, but not enough to argue with people equally sure that first delivered is preferred.
Yes, I have observed buyers carrying huge amounts of food, too - but not often.

There are a few implications (besides the already mentioned) that can help when playing the game:
- overproduce preferred food if possible
- give more room in granaries to the preferred food (if I have 2 food types in a granary, I use to give 3/4 to one and 1/2 to the other; not a mistake - such "overlapping" seems to help both distribution and city health, because the granary is more likely to be full)
- build granaries with different food types adjacent to each other or allow both types in one granary, if you intend to allow all of them in the same bazaar, to shorten the routes (I've seen a buyer to almost pass her own bazaar carrying one type of food and going to fetch another from the opposite side of block)

Vriesea,
please allow me to correct your quotation of my post. I'm not sure that multiple food types affect health the way I described - I only suppose it - but if it is true, then I'm quite confident that only food in Granaries is counted. That's how the supplies for X months are calculated, and I don't see any reason why it should be done differently here.
This is the problem with importing the food - it can lower your city health considerably if you don't have any food in granaries, even if all houses are supplied and several SY full. E.g. in Tribute, the only way to improve health was to build a granary, import food and move it into the granary. Game meat in SY didn't help any.
(It is possible that I'm wrong, but I work on the assumption that it is necessary to keep the algorithms simple.. therefore preferences are stable, the same number is used for calculation of various things, and numbers that can be obtained easily are preferred - e.g. not counting how many houses or even people have two food types, but just checking whether more than one food type is available in the city).

Angel Baltic

[This message has been edited by Baltic (edited 04-18-2001 @ 04:48 AM).]

Your implications are accurate and confirmed by my observations.

Having a good stock of multiple food types will not evolve housing quicker but will make housing more stable enabling it to endure food availability swings. The added big plus is that if multiple food types are available they can be distributed at the same time and rate as if only a single preferred food type was available. This is because of the large amounts of food the bazaar buyer will carry back to the bazaar. My observatins showed multiple times 2300 units of food being brought back to the bazaar with three types of food available. Have not confirmed it but with four types you are probably talking about 3000 units being brought back which is almost equivalent to the contents of an entire grainary.

You comment on keeping the food grainaries with multiple food stock close together was excellent. In my sandbox I had 4 to 6 grainaries but the two closest grainares had two food types each in a "Getting" mode. They were across from each other allowing the bazaar buyer to only go one distance and not have to extend her trip to a second or third grainary. This shortens the time it takes to buy all goods when you have multiple food types available.

Another thing I noticed, and I'm not sure of it because of my vision, was that when the bazaar buyer purchased more then 900 food units the boys who carry the food doubled. If you look closely you will see two rows of carriers. It is hard to distinguish because they are so close together. Wonder if anyone else has noticed this or if I am just seeing things.

I have no reason to disagree with your assumptions concerning health of the city and multiple food types being in the grainaries. It probably is the only disadvantage to importing food types.

Good gaming,
Vriesea

[This message has been edited by Vriesea (edited 04-18-2001 @ 03:59 PM).]