Keeping Up With The Hoteps has several interesting problems. I think I will play it some day, but at the moment my little play time is spend in C3 on No Clinic Capua.

If all reasonable requests are satisfied, are there any problematic world map changes? For example, if the quota for imported game meat or straw or barley or beer or linen was reduced, it could mess up a design. Such changes can be fun, but knowing they can occur would affect my plans.

After finishing No Clinic Capua (which may take weeks), I intend to try Keeping Up With The Hoteps. When I do, should I start a new thread or use this one?

There are no unmotivated changes to the world map. Any changes which occur will happen as a consequence of your response to requests.

Can't say I have a strong preference for where your discussion of the map ends up. Here is just as good a place as any, but if you want to start your own thread about it, that's also fine.

Looking forward to your thoughts either way.

[This message has been edited by Afterburner (edited 05-03-2020 @ 11:51 AM).]

I'm determined to finish No Clinic Capua before starting this mission!

Was the total reed import quota raised to 4000 "to make the mission slightly less frustrating", since the "Librarians not spawning despite having papyrus and full employment" thread said 1500? Were there any other world map changes that are visible at the start of the mission?

Did you use long (forced) walks? That could reduce papyrus, linen, and beer consumption.

Quoted from Brugle:

I'm determined to finish No Clinic Capua before starting this mission!

I gather it is tempting you?

Quoted from Brugle:

Was the total reed import quota raised to 4000 "to make the mission slightly less frustrating", since the "Librarians not spawning despite having papyrus and full employment" thread said 1500?

Yep. I never could get a stockpile of papyrus in any of my libraries or schools. They were constantly running with less than 100 papyrus, even with importing additional papyrus.

I suspect that raising the Reeds import quota to 4000 might make it a bit *too* easy. 3000 might've been a better sweet spot.

Quoted from Brugle:

Were there any other world map changes that are visible at the start of the mission?

Dunqul Oasis now sells 2500 Game Meat per year instead of 1500 Game Meat.

Quoted from Brugle:

Did you use long (forced) walks?

Nah. I have never really been interested in that mechanic, and have never used forced walkers.

[This message has been edited by Afterburner (edited 05-04-2020 @ 10:20 PM).]

My intention is to build the city using conditions that make it as tough as your original map. (You probably realized that.) I will avoid buying more than 1500 game meat/year--the final city will use considerably less. I will only build 3 papyrus makers (which use 1694 reeds/year) and will avoid buying more than 1500 reeds/year until the city is making plenty of money and could easily afford to buy another 194 papyrus/year. I will not use long (forced) walks.

Some of my usual "personal rules" would be interesting.

If you want to play the scenario exactly as I had it originally, before I made the adjustments, here it is:

http://www.infinitecities.com/stuff/Hoteps.zip

That has the original import levels for everything, and is the version of the map I was playing when I was having my papyrus distribution problems.

It is, as mentioned in the thread-starting post, unwinnable. The required Culture Rating is too high. You can open the map up in the map editor and lower the required Culture Rating to 70 if you really want to see the Victory pop-up. Or you can play it as-is and consider the game won if you can get 70 CR while meeting all the other victory conditions.

[This message has been edited by Afterburner (edited 05-13-2020 @ 06:16 AM).]

The original map has a total annual quota of 5000 straw--I'd guess reducing it to 2500 hurts more than increasing the game meat quota to 2500 helps. When playing your map (after No Clinic Capua), I expect it will be the one currently in the downloads. Maybe I'll use the map editor to reduce the reed and game meat quotas to be as in the original (but leave the smaller straw quota alone).

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 05-13-2020 @ 03:31 PM).]

The reduction of importable straw was unintentional. I didn't even realize I had done it until you said something.

One of the minor problems I had discovered when I tested the map originally was that the traders from Toshka had too much to do. They were buying and selling so many things that they spent too much time in my city hopping from warehouse to warehouse, and it was negatively impacting the amount of goods I could import from them annually.

So when I edited the map and made the adjustments, I took straw away from them as an importable good with the intention of giving it to another city and maintaining the same level of 5000 straw importable annually.

Looks like I forgot to give it to another city.

the traders from Toshka ... spent too much time in my city hopping from warehouse to warehouse

A good design should handle it.

straw ... I forgot to give it to another city

Another challenge.

AFTERBURNER SAID:

So when I edited the map and made the adjustments, I took straw away from them [Toshka] as an importable good with the intention of giving it to another city and maintaining the same level of 5000 straw importable annually.

HENIPATRA REPLIES:

How do you choose which city you get a particular item from? I can figure out a few ways of doing it, but could you expand on that point a little more?

Henipatra

Quoted from Henipatra:

How do you choose which city you get a particular item from?

You can specify what goods each city sells in the mission editor. Afterburner changed Toshka to not sell straw and intended to set another city to sell straw (not Sawu, which already does), but forgot.

Perhaps that's not what you're asking. Do you want to know how to buy a good from a particular city when multiple cities sell that good? In this example, you might want to buy straw (and some beer and a few gems) from Sawu and buy clay and reeds and papyrus (not straw) from Toshka. That's complicated (for details, see reply #2 in What Storage Yard is Chosen by a Docker or Trade Caravan?), but it can be done.

A caravan prefers to sell to a storage yard that is closer and has more empty bays. There might be 3 storage yards that are close together, for clay and reeds and papyrus, with each of those goods set to import up to 1600 (and the rest of the storage yard empty). There might be a straw storage yard that is farther from the entry point and is set to import up to 3200 straw. Toshka caravans would prefer to sell clay or reeds or papyrus (and if they couldn't and ended up selling a bit of straw, that's fine). Sawu caravans would sell its goods including straw.

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 05-14-2020 @ 02:56 PM).]

Quoted from Henipatra:

How do you choose which city you get a particular item from? I can figure out a few ways of doing it, but could you expand on that point a little more?

I'm talking about using the mission editor to create and edit a custom scenario. Are you asking about that? Or about something else?

I was asking about an existing mission where you can't hack the mission itself. And I was already aware of what Brugle recommended. I just wondered if there was anything else I was missing.

Henipatra

I started free-handing this map today, only on Hard difficulty and am only 3 years in. Thought I'd share some initial thoughts, because I don't know if I'll find the time to complete it tomorrow or in a month. Also spoiler free, nothing that can't be seen just by opening the map.

The starting money is deceptively small. It looks like a lot but this map is a real economic challenge so far, comparable or better than Hetep (which I think is the hardest economic map, but unfortunately has a very clear roadmap on how you're meant to play it based on what trade routes open)

I'm 3 exports in so far. I chose to start with both the stones as they are cheap and quick to set up but low profit, and pottery as Toshka buys the stones and sells both clay and reeds, and have then transitioned into papyrus once I had enough money. I chose pottery over papyrus just because I was trying to free-hand quickly and if I started again, I'd go papyrus then pottery.

After already getting 3 exports up though, money is a lot tighter than most maps. I can already tell that my initial exports aren't bringing in as much as usual, because of the low volume and need to import raw materials/export finished goods.

The map can fit 5 farms but only 4 of them can be road connected. With low numbers, low fertility and the risk of requests, I'm hesitant to rely on them for beer/linen export. I will probably hedge my bets and only use them for early request stockpiles before setting it up as an export or food source.

For food, fish is very efficient in the south. 2 wharves are within 1 tile of the spawn and another 2 are very close by. I suspect 2nd and 3rd foods are more difficult but a 100CR doesnt take too many PEs with predominantly CRs. I also don't know how the population requirement with food is going to go either, didn't plan that far ahead.

Going forward, I'm at the transition stage where, 3 exports are up and running, and yet I'm not pulling in a lot of money. Should I start putting some military down or plan for some requests to come in. Could I start the monuments. Or maybe I could be even greedier and go for a quick investment in upgrading my houses to get good tax income first. I'm just really loving it right now that the way the map is designed, I'm hoping these next steps will have some real consequences when the requests and events start coming in.

Quoted from evil_live_vile:

I don't know if I'll find the time to complete it tomorrow or in a month

You'll probably finish it before I start.

Quoted from evil_live_vile:

I started free-handing this map today, only on Hard difficulty and am only 3 years in. Thought I'd share some initial thoughts, because I don't know if I'll find the time to complete it tomorrow or in a month. Also spoiler free, nothing that can't be seen just by opening the map.

Wow! Thanks for the detailed feedback! As funny as it sounds, I'm glad to hear that you're finding it harder than usual to make money. Curbing the runaway profits good players tend to make in these scenarios was one of my design goals, and it sounds like I may have achieved it at least a little bit.

We'll see how Brugle does, though. If *he* feels a financial pinch, I will award myself a gold star!

Anyhow, glad you are enjoying the map! Hopefully you will continue to find it challenging for a while longer. (Based on what you've outlined, you've got an interesting dilemma you're going to have to eventually solve.)

Quoted from evil_live_vile:

I started free-handing this map ... I don't know if I'll find the time to complete it tomorrow or in a month

Made any progress? If you have (or expect to soon), maybe I'll try to play two games at the same time, since a mission often seems more fun if someone else is playing it at the same time. (Otherwise, I should finish No Clinic Capua first.)

Quoted from Afterburner:

you're finding it harder than usual to make money ... We'll see how Brugle does

The personal rules I expect to use will probably reduce initial money-making a bit. Should be fun.

Haven't yet but yea, if you're wanting to, I'll put a few hours in on the weekends. I'll even slow down a bit too, at least plan what the final housing composition will be with a couple generic housing blocks, work out how much money I'm actually bringing in and try for at least a moderate monument completion speed.

evil_live_vile,
I hope to post my personal goals (and some of their consequences) by tomorrow. One of the personal goals is to not delete anything that I build, so I'll want to plan the entire city before building anything.

I will modify the map to make reed imports and game meat imports the same as in Afterburner's original mission.

(As evil_live_vile indicated, opening up the Toshka route seems a good way to start, since they buy stones and sell reeds and clay. By the way, it appears that the original version was a little easier in one way: Dunqul Oasis would buy both pottery and papyrus, but in the download version only Sawu buys papyrus.)

These are my tentative personal goals:
* No "future history"
* Very Hard difficulty
* Culture 70 (as required)
* Prosperity 100
* All houses are residences or better
* No debt and no "rescue gift"
* Personal funds are not used
* No cheats
* Schools, libraries, mortuaries, and senet house are kept supplied with goods
* No long (forced) walks that do anything useful
* Palace, mansion, temple complex, festival square, and the best houses are together
* No festivals
* Regular traffic goes through the festival square
* All roads, including the rerouted Kingdom road, are connected
* Every entertainment venue has a show part of the time
* People are always registered for tax
* Nothing that I build is deleted (except perhaps by an event), unless I screw up
* There is at least one of each level of residence, manor, and estate
The last goal is new for me.

Note: no deletions and the minimum house is a residence means that I can only build one farm. Barley can be bought, so either lettuce or flax. I think I will grow lettuce--it may be more likely to be requested.

[Removed two unneeded rules caused by copying too quickly.]
[Added " that do anything useful".]

[This message has been edited by Brugle (edited 06-08-2020 @ 05:38 PM).]

Quoted from Afterburner:

I just kinda eyeballed it based on 20 years experience playing these games and gave it my best guess.

This best sums up my way of playing of this map as well.

Ok, so I've done probably as much map planning as I want to. I'll get to economic planning next.

My rules are much easier than Brugle's just because I'm not in the mood for a big planning project (With still working on the fast Hetep challenge, and going nowhere fast, I want a different style for now). I'm using the map as downloaded, no changes whatsoever.

Rules are:
*Hard difficulty (I want an easy game)
*No use of any techniques from CBC's Pharaoh/Cleopatra Contest Rules' banned or permitted features
*No rescue gift (never have, never will)
*Maximum ratings (70 Culture, 100 Prosperity, 55 Monument, 100 Kingdom)
*Feeder houses used
*Roads are unconnected
*No forced walks (not for any principled reason, just because they take planning and longer to set up)
*Mortuaries and Senet houses are supplied with goods, but only a minimumm number of mortuaries, dentists and senet houses will be built. Entertainment parks, schools and libraries may be empty if built solely for Culture requirements
*Full Forts - 3 infantry, 3 archers evenly spread across both sides of the river (but no transporting)
*No blessings - meaning no festivals (and that usually means I don't place the festival square either unless it's an aesthetic choice added right at the end)
*Assuming all trade is the minimum which the city is able to use at the end.

This last one is a big deal, could potentially make a huge difference between what Brugle and I will do here. If you know what the city ends with, your city composition can be very different to assuming the initial trade stays the same.

Otherwise this is aimed towards a very quick playthrough. So limited planning of the road network and desirability. Always aiming to keep a little buffer with finance. Other then entry/exit points for walkers, walker behaviour won't be manipulated or looked at in any detail, allowing for confused walks/transporters. Desirability will just be done on the fly. If the house doesn't upgrade, throw down some statues/shrines until it works. And I'll be saving/loading at times. This won't be to manipulate events, just so instead of careful placement and manipulating things on a per-tick level, I'd rather place the buildings, run at 100% for a couple months, see how things turn out and go back and change them as needed.

Goal will be a city with 22 Modest Estates for scribes and primarily Ordinary Cottages for workers. I don't think I've ever gone for Modest Estates. It's an interesting house, usually where 3 foods and 2 luxury goods are available, I'll go for PE, and if not Spacious Manors. I've never liked ME's look as much as the other 2. But this run is all about "why not" and it's something different. That'll be 2 blocks of 11, each consuming a different 2nd food. Worker population will then be a bit tight. I want no more than 10,000 people and from experience 40% scribes, 60% workers is probably the limit of having a comfortable number of workers. Any less workers than that and the difficulty in optimising your workforce starts to exponentially increase. But I don't know how many workers I'll end up using or having at the end.

I have an easy (inefficient) Modest Estate housing block, 2 of which can be put down anywhere. Ordinary cottage housing blocks are simple to make freehand so won't be planned, just lay the roads down and build the houses as and when needed. OCs are great because it can be a no-intersection loop with only jugglers and the corners are great for extra booths for Culture. And SYs/Granaries haven't been looked into at all, I'll just make quick distance measurements as I build, overcompensating can probably be limited to within 2-3 tiles just in case I miss something.

I've calculated fish production and ensured the imports support the setup. Next step will be verifying I'm maximising the early game economy so far before deciding how to play the mid-game as discussed earlier.

Brugle - I think having both playthroughs in the one thread would be good. We can compare the way each of us are approaching this and comment easily on the other's design. So long as Afterburner doesn't mind.

[This message has been edited by evil_live_vile (edited 05-23-2020 @ 04:21 AM).]

Quoted from evil_live_vile:

So long as Afterburner doesn't mind.

Can't imagine why I would. I'm just enjoying having people enjoy something I created.

It will be interesting seeing how some of your proposed plans and self-imposed restrictions interact with what I know of the map design. There have been a couple in both your list and Brugle's which should definitely increase the challenge factor.

Having given it considerable thought, I kinda wish I hadn't tweaked anything but the Culture Rating about the original map. It was winnable aside from that, and I would've beaten it myself, papyrus problems and all, if not for the CR being too high. And that map was harder than the one I have uploaded to the site. The "staying out of debt" is much easier now at least in the early years of the current map, whereas it was a real struggle (for me, at least) on Very Hard with the original setup.

Quoted from evil_live_vile:

I'm not in the mood for a big planning project (With still working on the fast Hetep challenge, and going nowhere fast,

I enjoyed the discussion, but am glad I didn't try to play it.

Quoted from evil_live_vile:

This last one is a big deal, could potentially make a huge difference between what Brugle and I will do here. If you know what the city ends with,

Since I won't use "future history", my design is based on the initial trade. If something does change (such as more food becomes available), I may change my plans if nothing needs to be deleted.

The design will take me a while. Don't get too far ahead.

Quoted from Afterburner:

the original map. It was winnable ... it was a real struggle (for me, at least) on Very Hard

Which is why I will reduce the reed and game meat quotas, to make the map at least as hard as the original map (aside from the impossible Culture).

It would be fun to have over 10000 people. There should be enough importable goods, but I haven't checked whether space is a problem.