age up 5:30 and attack his houses with pikes and falcs from shipment as soon as you hit age 3. Make it really hard for him to get new houses up, and with reinforcements you will able to beat a german player. Thats how I beat one this afternoon :P.

A good German player will not let that happen. I tried that already, works against noobs/low inters, but I mostly play 18++ players with lots of games behind them and they do not quite let that happen. Besides, mercs need one pop spot to be shipped, so even if he has 30 pop space, and 29 is taken up mercs are coming =) Also, if this is what I do, and he in the mean time colects gold and food, then he makes some skirms and bye-bye to all my pikes =S

For instance, I rushed a german player today, before he went to fortress, 10+14 pikes, 5 skirms, 6 lancers, 2 cannons, seems like a formidable force. Well guess what, I get his barracks, I go after his TC, I'm attacking it and he in the meantime gets to fortress, 7 skirms come out and they start hit-and-run, he flanks ponies and before my pikes can defend my cannons are gone. I send lancers to get skirms, they do, but I lose a few pikes and a lancer or two. Few seconds later, jaegers come out, his TC is still standing, and all my pikes/lancers/skirms die =|

[This message has been edited by dejanh (edited 03-22-2006 @ 02:40 PM).]

well if hes concentrating on aging up and you attack with 10 pikes + some more you will only encounter uhlans. If you micro well and keep your cannons alive and get highlanders in, hes dead.
You just need to age up fast and keep the pressure up. Keep his settlers garrisoned, thats the key. The guy i beat was 1890.
By the time he get rax and skirms, you get lancers. Bye bye skirms. Speed is the key.

[This message has been edited by Shizzle (edited 03-22-2006 @ 02:40 PM).]

what has the world come to? spanish complaining about germans?

as spanish u get shipment and dog advantage, and little eco adcantage unless he send 3 wagons in age2.

FF:

round 1, 11 highlanders + 2 falc + 6 lancers + 10 pikes > BR + jager + 7 skirms (you send one more shipment, but 1200 less gold)

round 2, 4 more falcs + 13 swiss pikeman + 7 striods > 11 lansks + 9 hackapell + 9 skirms + uhlans (about equal res)

Attacking fast is better...
If you have a 30sec faster ff. you kill his houses quickly, so he has to build new houses. And you keep his settlers in tc and outposts with lancers. If hes good he manages to keep you off and get mercs out anyway, but with your advantage your army is bigger by then anyway.
Just my opinion, i aint that good :P

spanish are the best counter to german FF. however doing a spanish FF is not the best tactic against the german FF. age up quickly with 17 villagers and then emmediately start on the wood. you can attack with a force of pikemen and crossbows that can easily defeat uhlans, minutemen, or the 3 dopple card. the german FF is really strong but is very population heavy. the best thing to do is destroy houses. ignor the town center until you have destroyed 2 or 3 houses. if he hasn't garrisoned his villagers keep killing things that aren't the town center. keep building pikemen and rodeleros. rodeleros to track down and kill villagers and pikemen to take down buildings. when he garrisons (or has no buildings left) take down the town center.

durring this you have stuck yourself in colonial for a time and he is most likely in fortress age by the time his TC comes down. however you should already be finding and killing villagers. do lots of scouting and moving around to find any towers or town center. if you find the enemy explorer make sure and keep him dead. kill any houses you can find and he will never be able to get more than 1 kind of merc out. in the meantime you get to fortress and gg.

from what i have seen, colonial rush from spanish mostly fail against german.

german can cancel FF anytime and counter spanish xbow + pike, german has way stronger eco and militery than spanish in age2, they egt 4 lansk, dopps and xbow and pike, + 2 free uhlan every shipment.

in fact in german VS span, german sometimes would actually colonial rush spain to stop it from FF,in a game of olympus VS blackicespain, olympus got 4 lansk + 3 dopps + 2 uhlans at 5:40,. destroyed spanish tower and barrack, and that 2 falcs (he failed to stop FF), eventually win the game.

@ultimitsu - yes, this is exactly right. This is what I have encountered. Colonial rush almost always fails against a german. The example you gave IS what happens if you try to colonial rush. The german does not lose out by stopping the ff, his age 2 eco is stronger anyway, and since you are focusing on colonial attack, your ff is hardly an ff any more.
Then it's just a matter of time before he overtakes and it's gg.

btw, this is what i have encountered....

highlanders + 2 falc + 6 lancers + 10 pikes < 5 uhlans + 6 dopples + jaegers + 7 skirms OR 5 uhlans + 6 dopps + br + 7 skirms with a bit of micro on the part of br

so while I do agree with you that your combination of units works, you can't exactly tell what he's gonna come up with, and if they keep raiding you in the meantime, its hard to get the nice combo you described.

[This message has been edited by dejanh (edited 03-22-2006 @ 03:24 PM).]

Check his deck. If Teutonic Town Centers card is in it. Don't rush.
Forget Lancers against Germany. They need to get in melee range to Jaegers, where they evaporate under Black Rider fire.
Use Highlanders + the 10 pikes from aging as meatshields against any Uhlans, Landsknecht or Hackapells. Ship in 2 Falconets, ship in 600/700 gold if you have to, but make more Falconets, preferably 4-6 of them. Perhaps even ship in Rodeleros.

Most German opponents will aniticipate Lancers from you, and get Black Riders, which will be useless against your heavy infantry/artillery.

If you've checked his deck and Teutonic Town Centers card is not present, rush him with Muskets and Rodeleros. Train 10 Muskets and ship in 6/7 Rodeleros. Go for his villagers.
Keep him off the gold/food, keep him garrisoned, make him use minutemen and/or crossbow and Landsknecht/Dopplesoldner/Uhlan shipments. Spend just enough resources to disrupt his aging/gold gathering, but leave enough for yourself to age up to Fortress. Here get Highlanders/Falconets and finish the job.

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 03-22-2006 @ 04:58 PM).]

that game with black ice vs olympus grun was really good. If he could have pulled the highlanders out he would have won. Really enjoyable game to watch.

@Ender_Ward - this does not sound half bad =) tho it requires a very different strat from my typical build order for spain. However, one problem that I see is that the BR are actually an artillery counter too so if they are present, its bye-bye to cannons.

I like the idea of no teutonic TC, rush with muskets and rods. Muskets are good against ponies and infantry, and rods are good against infantry and to chase down villagers. Dopples should be no problem either if he makes them b/c muskets will pwn them. Rods can take care of any xbows that he makes. Maybe you are on to something...

If you hit age3 at 7:00. It takes 30 secs for a falc shipment. You attack with with 10 pikes +5 you made while agin at 7:40. He wont have enough gold by then, and you kill 2 or 3 houses so hes prolly low on pop. By then its 30 secs later and you get your 14 more pikes. and keep destroying houses. If he made skirms you ship in lancers. An 1850 player isnt that fast you know. He wont have an army at 7:30, if you keep pressuring his vills his mercs will be slow down too. It takes 60 secs for mercs to come in and he needs the gold + shipment too. So he wont have br + jaegers before 9:30. I dont really see what the problem here is. As the spanish eco is very powerfull with the 4 and 5 settler shipments and fast shipments, you will beat his eco early fortress if you keep his settlers busy running away for your army. If you protect your cannons they will own his skirms and when you did that, you got 14 extra pikes. He might be able to get out jaegers just before you destroy his tc, but some lancers will deal with that.

[This message has been edited by Shizzle (edited 03-22-2006 @ 03:57 PM).]

Its all easier said than done.

Pike rushes are effective if you opponent has squat. If he does have some type of xbowman or any ranged units for that matter, you better put you pikemen is cover mode, cuz ranged units can stop an all pike rush fast.

If Spain sends highlanders at around 8 mins, and has already sent 2 falcs, and all his pikemen are dead, they dont have a pot to piss in. Hopefully you can survive with the Landers and cannons to put the rest of the Germans forces down. Which is unlikely aganst BR + Jaeger (or culverin?)

Quote:

highlanders + 2 falc + 6 lancers + 10 pikes VS 5 uhlans + 6 dopples + jaegers + 7 skirms

you shouldnt lose to this one, keep the pikes and highlanders blocking the falcs, so his uhlans cant do anything, and falc his dopps, if dopps retreat, fire at his jaegers, once you beat his dopps, move in the lancers.

or cover falc with just pikes,beat dopps with highlanders, they should die fast, then push lancers in. the uhlans are useless.

highlanders + 2 falc + 6 lancers + 10 pikes VS 5 uhlans + 6 dopps + br + 7 skirms

this one you must cover falcs with highlands and pikes, falc on his dops and skirms, if teh move in shoot them with ghilanders, lancers are a bit usless here, free target for BRs, but BRs die to highlanders if he chases you.

as long as german doesnt make culverins, your 2 falcs is always a big advantage,

i thknk the key when using spanish aginst german is makesure your pikes stay where they are, pikes tend to rush in then get themselves killed.

i never seen good german player ship dopp or make them in age3, they die to skirms and falcs too fast, on 1v1 lancer beats dopp too.

you need to kill the jeagers before the br comes in... Jaegers id suggest just to use pikes and build 2 more falcs. Once he gets more skirms+BR your spamming pikes an dhave 3 or 4 falcs.
His uhlans are paper thin and get slaughtered by your pikes.
i think you shouldnt wait for the highlanders... With enough pikes he cant do much about your falcs. And when you have 3-4 falcs and 20+ pikes you can get the higlanders.
@ultimitsu: A good player wont get doppels vs this. Just skirms mercs and falcs too. If you only have 2 he'll try to suicide to kill your falcs and get his mercs out. I would suggest to use lancers, cos he will use skirms probably.

Yeah I think that the big problem is keeping those damn pikes from moving. If you select cannons and pikes, its not much use since cannons always fall behind and uhlans can then flank. Defensive formation for pikes (square) does not work either, unless you micro cannons in the middle which is hard to do considering that the cannons do not want to stay in the middle. Stand ground I guess is the best option in this case...

PS: I did something similar to the 10 pikes + 6 lancers + falcs + highlanders now against a 19++ player and I beat him. He was Germany, I was spain. He raided too with his uhlans, but I decided for tight building instead of forward build so that I have TC/tower cover fire for raids. I think that this is important too when playing Germans. Forward building on some maps can hurt Spain because they don't have protection from rading units. Am I right?

I find shipping 7 rods or so a good way to kill those uhlans. They usually let 3 or 4 uhlans near your base idle to raid, so killing them wont be a problem. it costs you a shipment, but if you dont pay attention and he kills 4 settlers it cost you a game. Theyr fast and cheap and they garantuee your settlers not getting killed. And I usually build fw bases with spain, the sooner your in his base, the better.

And for the pikes, i usually keep them moving around my cannons all the time. I never keep them idle waiting. Splitting your anti cav in 2 groups is also a good idea, good players will try to lure you infantry away from your falcs with some uhlans and kill them with another group of cavalry.

[This message has been edited by Shizzle (edited 03-22-2006 @ 04:44 PM).]

I like the rodelero idea. They are fast and cheap and good at countering cavalry. Maybe even making them from barracks is not a bad idea, tho this would definitly modify my current strategy as I would need to build a barracks. Maybe shipment is a better idea O_o

Ah, I liked so much more playing at lower levels. *sigh There are so many micro-management issues when you start playing better players, hehe =) But I guess this is also what happens to separate expert players and the rest.

dejanh:
Black Riders can do nothing to Falconets when there are 11 Highlanders and 10 Pikes guarding. Any German player that would put Black Riders into melee mode to try and get the Falconets at this point, would be insane.

Forget the Lancers. There is no reason to ship them in against Germany. Ask yourself, what are you killing with them? Skirmishers and Jaegers, that's it. All the rest of the German units and Mercs own Lancers (even Uhlans, cost effectively). The 2 Falconets are way more effective against the Jaegers.
When you age up with 10 pikemen, ship in 2 Falconets first, before Highlanders. 10 Pikes + 2 Falconets can stop a normal force with the help of your TC fire/minutemen, if he attacks THAT early. But if, as usual, the German will wait for atleast Jaegers, you'll have time to ship in 600/700 gold, ship in Highlanders and make more Falconets.

Basically, set your villagers mostly to wood and gold (keep 5-6 villagers on food if you want to continue villager production). You need 400 wood for 2 more Falconets + 2 houses, if you don't use Colonial Estates, and 800 gold. You also need 1200 gold for Highlanders. 2000 gold total. I actually forgot that Spanish don't get the 1000 gold shipment (playing Ottoman too much lately). So ship in the 600 gold or 700 gold shipment from age 2, whichever one you didn't use.
By the time a German would attack with both sets of Mercs, Uhlans and Skirmishers, your villagers will need to gather 1300-1400 gold to have:
10 Pikemen, 11 Highlanders, 4 Falconets.

Surviving the Jaeger, Black Rider, Skirmisher and Uhlan attack will come down to your Falconet micro.

If you have that force ready and your opponent has not shown up yet, build as many more Falconets as you can afford. He may come with Landsknecht instead of Black Riders, with 2 Culverins or his own trained Falconets, so you're gonna need to outnumber his artillery.

The more time he gives you, the more resources you should poor into the counters to what he can possibly send at you.

Oh and only send in the Fort if you think you can afford to spend the shipment. Between the 3 villagers, 5 villagers, 11 Highlanders, 2 Falconets, 700 gold and 600 gold (6 shipments), you'll already be pushing Spain's advantage .

So would it make sense to play more defensively and counter against Germans rather than charging into his base? Granted this may depend on what stage he is at when you have your army (for example, if he is still colonial then naturally attack)...

When I play against a german as russia I find that a well executed grenadier rush is the way to go as long as he doesn't upgrade his TC with that tutonic crap. the + 1000 TC hitpoints in the patch really pissed me off.

Unforunatly I have not played spain past lvl 10 so I dont really know much about their playstyle. But I would have to agree with whoever said not to ship lancers there are probably better things that will counter more than them. I would also disagree with whoever said to ship age II gold from what Ive seen there seems to be way better things for spain to ship in age 3.

Quote:

i think if you can FF right hit fortress at 6:30, push into his base with 10 pikes kill house , then ship 2 falcs at 7:20 to kill aging skirms, with 1 or 2 housesdown he cant send mercs, then u will have the edge. but if delayed fortrress and sent 4 lansk + 3 dopps, then u lose upperhand.

if u cant attack early enough it is best to play defensively until he's done with his 4 mercs. but you dont have an edge anyway.

both german and spanish suffers from weak late age3(comparatively), late age3 it would be a WW+ skirm VS rods + lancer, he who has better micro wins

dejanh,

If he doesn't have Teutonic Town Centers, it's time to be aggressive.

If he does, then play defensively. If you aged with the Tower and 200 gold, then you have TC fire + Outpost + possible Minutemen fire advantage if you are defending. Every little bit of firepower helps. It's also easier to create choke points in your town with the buildings than it is to rely on natural ones.
Lastly, when you attack his base, your units are kinda blind, while he has huge line of sight with his TC/Outposts/Houses. If you defend in your base, it's vice versa. Seing his forces before he sees yours is actually a pretty big advantage.

Quoted from Armagin:

Like ... what? After you've sent the 2 Falconets, you don't have much else except Rodeleros to ship in (more pikes are unnecessary, and Lancers not very useful as I've said before).
When you need gold, and you can't rely just on gathering alone (too slow), you gotta ship what you have. It's too bad Spain doesn't have the 1000 gold shipment, they'd be bloody overpowered .
I suppose you could ship in 1000 food instead and have all your villagers on wood/gold. Perhaps even build some Muskets ... Never tried this though, not sure how effective if would be.

@Ender_Ward - wouldn't 700 wood during fortress age up make more sense? It would allow to build houses, artillery foundry, and with only 5 on wood, and the rest on gold you can produce 2 more falconets (4 total + 24 pikes) before 9:15 minutes and ship in the highlanders by 10:15 or something. This requires a slightly delayed ff, but it would leave you with 24 pikes and 4 falconets in your base to absorb the attack.

1. 24 pikes will do fine against Hackapells/BR + any uhlans if he uses them.
2. 4 falconets will make short work of his Jaegers or Lands.

Covered by TC fire + outpost (if it is not protecting villies on gold - map dependent) the above should do fine to defend against mercs. At least I think. In the meantime too you can have 5-6 on food to keep the villager production going to get more wood/gold in case you need to build some culverins.

Any thoughts?

PS: Realistically, I don't think that a German player can have two merc units out any sooner than 10:30 since they both take 60 seconds to ship, cost 2400g, and require some woodwork in the meantime to up the houses for pop. Is this right.

PPS: I am going on an assumption of a solid economy reinforced by constant production of villagers as well as pumping out mercs - 18 pop discovery (included shipping 2 wagons), age up with wood, 700g, mercs x 2, constant villager production.

[This message has been edited by dejanh (edited 03-22-2006 @ 06:36 PM).]

deprive the german of coin, scout his mines, the first mine carries 2000 coin, he can only get one set of mercs from it, and he will not be wasting shipments for coin,

get in and raid that mine with rods/hussars/lancer/skirm anything really

you dont even need to kill many villagers, every second he is not collecting gold is a second that you get to prepare for an attack.

he can ship military in to fend you off but thats another shipment he doesnt have for mercs

only waste time on a house if you wont suffer a loss, no point in losing a few 80 to 200 resource unit if he can replace his house for 100.