Or make warhut not available till age2

Or just disable the Warhut build option for the starting travois.

I dont think they will change the travois thing... it's their special bonus. A little prowler nerf should be just fine imo (and maybe the eagle-eye-bazooka-shot too)

Or how bout they rid of some age 2 shipments(i.e. Toma) Hard as Euro to match that. Or how bout they add more age 2 units to euro units to match. How do they expect you to be competitive? I know if you repel there rush, you win, but still over 50% of the time you will lose. Especially in team games! Me and Celtic_neoman got a sick rush that totally owns!

I'm with Zongo.

You shouldn't nerf (better, remove) the unique aspects of a civilization to make it balanced. Although the War Hut reduces the versality of the travois (since most of the time you'd want an War Hut over anything else), it is something only Iros can do. War Hut placement is no different than a Portuguese CW placement... and if Portugal was OP, would you remove their Covered Wagons and (to compensate) give them Settler cards?

If their rush is OP (what I don't think it is), nerf their starting crates, nerf their age up time, nerf their Warchief... hell, even nerf their Tomahawks, but do not remove their Travois.

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That would be good IMO. If you want to rush, you still can, but your travois must remain vulnerable for the first 3 minutes. Not being able to build warhuts at all would mean a significant nerf of the Iroquois turtle.

^^LOL

get rid of some age 2 shipment like 6 tomas? wow, that is the dumbest idea ive ever heard. without age 2 shipments like 6 toms or 7 aennas, iro,(or for that matter any civ) would be just worthless.

firefly, i think this is a brilliant idea, but ES wont do it, they will probably just nerf prowlers and maybe eagle-eye like zongo said.

I don't know who builds a war hut with there first travois. I always build a longhouse. And besides theres no point in building one so early, chances are if you do a travois dance you're gonna get a couple before you age(assuming that you have 4-5 vills on the fire pit) and get a couple during the age up.

Nah, just make forest prowlers weaker, and make their TCs weaker (With some cards their TC can rival forts). Other than that they're fine.

Walker, you misunderstood me. I don't mean to remove travois from the game, not even from the age up politicians. JUST the starting one. If portugal was OP and they had a starting TC wagon, then yes I would remove it.

Iro still has it's bonus, they just have no starting travois! They have an extra wood crate (or two) to make up for it.

Blu Falcon, why use a travois on a 100 wood building and then gather 250 wood for a warhut, when you can use it for a warhut and gather 100 wood for a house? The warhut can even block the enemy from some huntables that he would be able to herd if there was no WH there.

You save 150 wood, you establish early map control, you spend less settler time making the building, and you can rely on one house from wood crate until you age easily.

longhouses are 150 wood firefly

but yeah you're right

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OMG someone found a way to make ports good!
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One of the more evil things you can do ffing as iro, on maps that start with more wood, use the starting travois on a house and make a TP right off the bat just like a otto. Or you could like borg up the ender rush, IOR iroquois stlye

I think the iros need a prowler nerf and a great house nerf, you can nerf them more but only if you want to boost annas.

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Umm .. aren't they 125 wood?

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they are 125wood

(also have 600 HP more than a house)

[This message has been edited by Zongo (edited 01-11-2007 @ 06:28 PM).]

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Actually, I did get it right... I think it was me who didn't explain it well. My point is that the starting Travois is still an unique feature for a civilization, and shouldn't be removed.

If Iros were nerfed in other ways (WC nerf, FP nerf, Artillery nerf, starting resources nerf), then they'd have to put a lot more thought on what they'd do with that Travois. That is strategy. Finding a good spot for a War Hut is way more interesting then always building that damn Longhouse or Market in the very same place.

As I see it, if Iros can be balanced without the need of removing the starting Travois, don't do it.

^ I agree.

If we start nerfing every unique aspect of each civ we'll end up with 11 civs which will be played exactly the same way.

When 99.99% of all Iroquois players use their starting Travois to set a Warhut in the middle of their opponent's extended hunt, you know it's too good.
No other civ can do this for a bloody good reason.

The ability to build a trade post is disabled for the starting Travois. Precisely because it would be a major screw. A Warhut is the same.
It's like giving Russians a Blockhouse wagon right from the start. Or giving Ottomans a Barracks wagon in Discovery.
Too much? So is the warhut. Except unlike a free forward barracks, it also shoots at settlers trying to herd things, or explorers trying to treasure hunt or build trade posts.

When 99.99% of all Ottoman players use their starting wood to set a Trading Post, you know it's too good.

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That's why the idea is to nerf Iroquois, not Russia. Still, nerfing Iroquois doesn't mean reducing their unique possibilities.

[This message has been edited by Just a player (edited 01-11-2007 @ 09:12 PM).]

Walker, Ottoman villagers don't train at 25 seconds (up to 250% faster with the Firepit). Ottomans don't get a 30 seconds age up option to Colonial. Ottomans have to spend 750 wood to produce heavy infantry, light infantry and get a garrison point that shoots at enemy units (Outpost). Not for 250 wood.
Or better yet, for FREE at the start of the game, which builds automatically in a forward location, without wasting any villager seconds. Isn't THAT convenient?

Etc.

Why not compare Iroquois to the other civs with "standard" villagers?

Fire_Fly, my buddy uses Iroqious, and I think this is a great suggestion. They can still age up, get a trav and build a forward warhut about as fast as any other rush can get a foward base built. This would slow down the rush by about 30 seconds (?), and make for fun play as you try to find that trav before it builds.

I like.

That just proves that there are way more factors to be looked at besides "they always build War Huts". If we keep arguing like this, soon we'd be discussing that free TCs > free Warhuts...

Anyway, since there are more factors to look at, there are other possibilities of nerf. Because, unless you admit Ottos are OP because they always build the same building, you can't take that as the final argument for War Hut OPness

I'd rather just nerf the War Cheif D. Eagle Shot, Forest Prowler HP (So they can keep high damage combined with Stealth as an advantage) and Light Cannons. Besides, I think I can live with pretty much anything else... If the Tomahawk rush is proven to be OP, just nerf the Fast Age up politician by 10 seconds!

I agree with Ender, but I do see what Walker means. The starting Travois does allow for many strategic options that would be fun to try out, but I'm worried (for good reasons) that people will always just plop a warhut as close to the enemy's hunts as possible. We both know that this will be the case (most likely) as long as iroquois have a starting travois (that can make a war hut).

Maybe making travois' not make warhuts in age one is a good idea. What age one buildings are available other than longhouse/market/firepit anyways? They are all cheap buildings.

Maybe if warhut was taken out of starting trav then people might get smart and save the travois for later, then make an extra war hut or a farm etc.

Taking out the travois entirely gets rid of the whole free warhut deal, but just disabling warhut in age one makes the travois a less boring strategic element. Hmmmm.

Or you could be like walker and lame fast warhuts. :P

The Warchief isn't winning Iroquois games. And his super shot is usually exaggerated. He shouldn't be touched.

What is winning Iroquois games is early denial of extended hunts, for FREE, without any effort required (which can often be the ONLY close extended hunts that their opponent has). Followed by the earliest rush in the game by troops that come from a big button tech in 5 seconds (instead of the 30+ it takes to normally produce). And if there IS a secondary hunt around, don't worry, it'll be covered by yet ANOTHER FREE Warhut, that the Iroquois player gets even if he used the fast age up option to Colonial.

And after you are sufficiently disrupted by this early rush, that for all you know is about to be followed up by another Tomahawk/Aenna assault, your Iroquois opponent simply ships in 600 gold, ages to Fortress with The Warrior, getting those nice Mantlets, ships 8 overpowered Forest Prowlers, trains 5 more, and comes after your ass. Oh and let's not forget that while he was aging, he's collecting gold for the 5 Cuirassiers, 600HP each (thanks to the Warchief) you'll need to deal with AFTER you somehow deal with the Prowlers.

After all this, the Warchief's super shot is just icing on the cake.

The things that make Iroquois overpowered is the ability to get a free early Barracks/Outpost in the Warhut and use it to deny an opponent his hunts. The ability to fake a super fast rush via big button techs, that his opponent has to prepare for since it can always turn into a real one. And follow it up by FF for Forest Prowlers that are a hell of a pain to deal with.

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agreed here. everyone's always like "z0mg teh eagal eye r liek so OP!@21!" the only time it seems worthy of that type of reaction is when a fortress eagle eye is shot into a mass of weak colonial LI such as macehualtins. under normal circumstances, the eagle eye is like one falconet shot in fortress age, not something to write home about. 30% hp is nice but the other warchiefs dont exactly suck, i have little experience with the aztec warcheif but the sioux one can be upgraded with ease to the point of 1-hitting 4 falcs and then being back from firepit 5 seconds after it dies.

light cannons do not need a nerf. azzies get their arrow knights, sioux get their warchief and very strong cavalry. the euros get culvs. without strong LC, the iroquois weakness to cannon will be unbearable. they already have to be in industrial just to access them.

starting warhut is nice (perhaps a bit too effective on hunt-scarce maps), but i believe that iroquois need it. the iroquois rush is solid, but their colonial is weak. tomahawks are worse than muskets and cost more (wood vs gold), aennas are extremely food heavy and have little hit and run capability, and are weak in general. take away that forward hut and the iroquois will probably be owned in colonial.

having said all that, i do not think iroquois is an OP civ. i dont see it as any more powerful than, say, ottos, and certainly not as powerful as dutch. QS ((25-35 or so PR) would support me on this, about 50% of my games are against dutch, perhaps 30% against otto, and 20% against all the other civs, with sioux, aztecs, french, and iroquois being most common (on a side note spanish usage has seemed to drop off the radar, i fight more RUSSIANS than spanish...are they getting ready for the nerf or what? all converting over to new and improved dutch OPness ahead of time?). when a civ is truly OP, heaps of people at all skill levels use that civ, those who want to lame it, those who are sick of being lamed by it. i do not see iroquois as much as i would see an OP civ.

the one thing i slightly agree with is a prowler nerf. but if the dutch get halbs and the french get cuirs i dont see why the iroquois shouldnt get prowlers. everyones all against a halb nerf ("ohhh its a unique unit, the dutch need it, its not OP its just the only thing in the game that is right!! everything else just needs to be buffed to compete with it!!"), i think most of them are probably dutch players...the prowler is definitely not as powerful as the fast halb.

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 01-11-2007 @ 11:47 PM).]

The way I see it there are a few options:

-No WH for Starting travois

-No travois for fast age up politician

-No Starting travois but more resources

I don't want number 3, but it has to be an option.