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It still boggles my mind that people insist on this "fact." Every other civ that gets villager shipments in Discovery (except perhaps British in some situations) reflexively sends 3 vils as the first shipment. It's not even questioned. Why the dutch are so much different if they aren't doing a FCUK start baffles me. In fact, since Dutch vils still cost more VS than normal vils, it's even a bigger shipment to get than normal, since it will cost you more VS to build the extra 3 vils yourself.

^I agree. Stradhouder is a nice card, but you dont use it fully until you get to fortress. 3 villagers is definately better.

I did not say that the 3 vill card was worthless. I said it was worthless unless sent as first card. I make a judgment call at the start of the map, and decide which one is more useful. If Stad looks like it will show a decent return, I don't even bother to put 3 vills in my deck, because I won't use them later. The trouble is, Stad isn't worth it either later. That's why I send it first, because it is essential to take advantage of the cheap TC's. I've been on a 5 game winning streak since making this BO, and I've used Stad every time. In 2 of the games I got a coureur out of it, and that + the cheap TC's more than made up for the lost 3 vills. Especially since the coureur starts out in the middle of the map, and I can throw him right on wood.

If you can get even 150 extra wood, stadhouer is superior. 200 wood means you can get a bank up almost immediately upon hitting fortress. Add to that the ability to immediately take map control on hitting fortress, and the 3 vills simply do not stack up. However, if there are a small number of treasures on the map, 3 vills do work out better.

Stadhouder is always superior, except sometimes on Sonora and Hispaniola.

On Hispaniola, you should probably send schooners, and on Sonora, ATP.

BTW, gren rush is even worse now because of the train time, and barracks/stables are cheaper than artillery foundries (so enemies can get stables up and pump boosted hussars into your face)

in my rush i've been doing i've been sending 300 wood as my first card to throw a bank up. and still age up with 400 wood. for rax, house maybe market, etc.

Unless you're on Yukon, Bayou or Hispanola ...

ATP (followed by Stagecoach research upon hitting Colonial) > 3 villagers or Stadhauder.

^ could you please elaborate on that strategy, i have never seen it in use and am curious as to it's effectiveness.

The Only Thing You got goin in this strat is THE SUPRISE ELEMENT which can get u the win.. You still neeed luck lol. I prefer Shipping and making pikes and skirms and attack ^_^

Why is stadhouder always superior then 3 vills??
On texas/greatplains id much rather send ATP or 3 vills then stadhouder..
Same goes for Hispaniola and Sonora (wich uve already mentioned).
Yucatan, id choose between 3 vills/stadhouder/schooners.
So that leaves us to Carolina, Bayou (bayou isnt always beneficial tho) and Yukon...

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3 Vills gather 300 wood in about 2 minutes (so a little longer then ur transition to colonial age. And after theyll stay usefull the whole game. Thus i dont see the benefit in sending 300 wood, while u culd also put them 3 vills on wood.

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On Texas, 3 vils, if you really want, you can send ATP, but you need to make sure you steal one of the trade posts on your opponent's trade route.

On Great Plains, it depends. Sometimes, there are 3 TPs, so you can only grab two, and thats if you steal the middle one. You have native TPs too, but the comanche ones are useless, and you don't need so many lakota.

Great Plains has really nice treasures, so sending stadhouder is probably best if you're not planning on using natives extensively-you can get one lakota TP and both available TPs relatively cheaply, anyway.

Plus, GP is a map where you want lots of map control to cut off enemy hunting sites, coin, etc. So, stadhouder gives you cheap TCs, this is a big advantage.

What times are you getting places...

No offense but this seems like a 6 and half min rush.

Can you just describe a little more in detail what you do and what times?

1.08 gren rush just does not work whatsoever. With the longer train time it makes it almost impossible to be effective. I used to use this all the time, especially in team games, but the time along with the cheaper rax and stable makes it too weak and slow.

Except for the obvious maps, stadhouer > 3 vills imo. I love the exiled prince ff followed by 1000 wood for two banks and a second tc by 730ish. As far as rush defense goes, I'd think skirms would still be your best bet with some hussars mixed in.

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(300/3)/0.5=200 seconds or 3:20

why the hell is the stadouder card so good!?!?

Because it gives an immediate return. That return often gives you the extra wood to put up your second bank and house before the 700w comes in.

As for the rush, yeah, it's not particularly viable. This really amounts to more of a straight turtle. It defends against a rush nicely, giving you 2-3 banks up while the enemy rush is hitting you. What's nice about grens as opposed to skirms is that grens come out ready to fight. If you build a rax, 30 seconds later you have five skirms, and have to run them away from the enemy army until 30-60 seconds later (Ususally you need at least 13 skirms to put up a decent rush defense.) Conversely, as soon as your 5 Grens are out, they are liable to take out half of the invading army (absent cossacks or the like, which can be handled via 8 pikes.) So Grens give you a reasonable defense force in 40 seconds, vs 60 with a barracks. Those five grens also provide just enough support to make colonial militia effective if you get hit by a heavy rush.

Against Russia I'd definitely agree that grenadiers are a great defense as long as you keep those pikes alive and away from strelet fire long enough to kill the cossacks.

However, an otto rush is completely different. No way would I want grens for fighting jannies. Skirms with a few hussars for the abus is the only effective colonial solution to their rush.

I'm not sure it would be too effective against rods from Spain either.

[This message has been edited by Since_1817 (edited 08-08-2006 @ 05:00 PM).]