Its quite obvious how to play using silk road, IMO its only you who think it is an overpowered card.

Its too soon to tell, because not enough people have played against it (its like those people who did not know how to FF when AoE3 was released, and got owned by Ottos).

Its not a very strong strategy(like WW massing, Spanish FF 1.05, etc.). I'm sure Ender can explain it to you

[This message has been edited by LO12DS_Mist (edited 09-10-2006 @ 05:58 PM).]

After not using ottos for some days I went back to them and in my first game in QS I ended up beating a guy who was 2200+ cuetech (about 100 pts difference from me) and who used Spain.

Kind of lame...

I would like to add a point:

On water maps I really suggest adding schooners to your deck.

On maps like Patagonia I usually go with 2 tps like ulti said. Shipments: 3 vills -> 5 jans -> silkroad -> 700 wood (for 3rd TP+ houses+ dock(s) ,2nd rax)

And then send schooners.

I set 2 TPs on wood and have one make food while vills are like 70%/30% on food/gold for jans.

That way I can spam boats from two docks which gives me an even bigger eco boost, while spamming jans from 2 raxes.

Schooner boom powered by tps really rox.

On water maps, you don't need to use silk road. In fact, you might actually play better without it, depending on how many TPs are on the map (perhaps only Patagonia would be useful)

The reason is, you're using 2 cards which don't give you any instant bonus, you have to pay to get a boost out of them.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

You need to use it in more games and against high rated people to decide whether it's overpowered or just very strong. As far I know (from what you posted) you've only played one 1900 person with it, where said person didn't even truly utilise it until quite late in the game (and where your own pretty heavy mistakes lost you the game, as I already said before).

Quoted from ultimitsu:

When people of my own skill level defeat me half the time when I use this strat, I find it quite hard to accept it as "overpowered".

Quoted from ultimitsu:

There is no build order for the IOR. The order of shipments changes based on the civ and map you are playing in addition to other circumstances. It's almost never the same.

First, 3 Hussars are almost always a waste of a shipment. Send 700 food and train 8-10 of them for a real deterrent to light infantry or raiding force.

Next, do NOT put all 6 resource crates in your deck. You will almost never send 600 food and 600 wood. And you will not frequently send 600 gold (again depends on the civ you are fighting).
There are more benefitial cards you will be sending with your FEW shipments. That's right, few shipment because your TPS are not set to XP. In all the many, many games I used the IOR in, the XP arrives very slowly relative to having one-two TPs set to XP throughout the game.

For example, you'll find Advanced Arsenal upgrades can turn the tide in a Colonial conflict, because Janissaries like no other infantry units benefit from HP upgrades (and damage, for their hand attack).

And no other infantry besides Abus Guns benefits as much from the 15% damage boost and Counter Infantry Rifling (CIR) against Musket massers. The 15% damage upgrade pushes up the damage for your standard Abus Gun from 40 to 46 (that's seige damage). You're getting almost Veteran damage in Colonial. When you do upgrade them to veteran in Fortress, they will have 54 (!) seige damage a shot. CIR doubles the damage of a Colonial Abus Gun to an insane 80 per hit (92 with the 15% damage upgrade)! Your opponent will quickly stop making Muskets when he sees how fast you wipe them out.

It took me about 50 games doing IOR to come to the above conclusions. Trust me on this.

I'll give a few examples on the lack of build orders:

On a map where you can claim 2 Trade Posts only, against Spain, German, French, Portuguese and British you would be sending 3 villagers, 5 Jans, Silk Road, 700 wood, 700 gold (Abus Guns, which will be needed by this point as your opponents have either aged up or are massing Muskets/Crossbows).

On a map where you can claim 3-5 Trade Posts, against the above civs, you will be sending 3 villagers, ATP, 5 Jans, 700 wood, 700 gold, 700 food (you'll get more shipments on such maps from the ATP building XP).

But depending on the situation the card order can change completely. You may find it more benefitial to set the TPs to wood for a couple of passes while sending 700 (910) food instead for more Jans sooner.

Or on maps with good natives, you can have a deck with 700 food, 600 wood, 700 wood and 700 gold. You'll find yourself setting the trade posts to wood, and then shipping in both wood crates while spamming Lakota or Cree Trackers. You likely won't send the food/gold crates for a long while.

However when against Dutch, you will have to follow completely different build orders. For one thing, you will not be sending 5 Jans as your second card. You won't be training Jans to start, but rather Abus Guns. It's likely that your card orders would be:

1. 3 villager, Silk Road, 700 wood, 700 gold, 700 food, etc.
2. 3 villager, ATP, Silk Road, 700 gold, 600 gold, etc.

Or against Russians you'll have to do something like:

1. 3 villager, Silk Road, 700 food, 700 gold, 600 gold, etc.
2. 3 villager, ATP, Silk Road, 700 food, 700 gold, 600 gold etc.

Because you'll need both Hussars and Abus Guns very early, and both are extremely expensive units. Only later on you will be able to switch to the more reasonable in cost Jans, when the Russian player begins to train large numbers of Muskets.

On water maps against booming civs you'll likely use something completely different, such as:

3 villager, Silk Road, Schooners, 700 wood, 2 Galley, 600 wood. In order to do a massive water boom while using the trade posts to power Janissary creation for defense.

There's a reason I have not included strict build orders in the original thread. It's because no build order will survive contact with the enemy. The only action that never changes is researching stagecoach and building a Barracks, Stable or Foundary (chop 100 wood) with the Quartermaster 400 wood.
From that point on there are just too many variables.

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 09-10-2006 @ 10:41 PM).]

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some people do. u dont need it you can stay out.

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ottoman schooner is far from over powered.

for starters, ottoman dont start with a dock by default like they do with TP, unless you choose to build a dock over a TP at the beginning of the game.

ottoman dont have any significant advantage over other civs in the schooner boomng contest. in fact because the the amount of XP any civ can get from schooner boom is quite insane(10 xp for every 25 seconds per dock + 10 xp for vils from TC), the early TP advantage of ottoman is comparatively insignificant.

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of course.

i didnt bother include that in the original post because i dont want people go on about how its schooner not silk road that is OP etc.

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interestingly, that person got 2050 soon after that day, by using this particular strat. only stopped because he felt boring about it. in fact i just encouraged him keep using it till he hits the roof.

admittedly i have not used for 50 games, but I have used it for about 10 games or so, mostly against people who dont frequent this forum.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 09-11-2006 @ 02:03 AM).]

Quoted from ultimitsu:

You do realise that a double (or even worse tripple, once in Colonial) dock Schooner boom is way better than the IOR, right?

Quoted from ultimitsu:

Are you kidding me? They might as well start with a Dock (two, even) the same way they "start" with a trade post.

But ofcourse you don't need a Trade Post when doing a double dock boom. You're getting 20 XP every 25 seconds, plus the 100XP you get from building two docks, plus the 50XP you'll get from the 3rd Dock you build once you hit Colonial (Quartermaster wood), plus the XP you get from building houses, Barracks and Foundary/Stable.
You also don't really have a problem with shipments because Schooners is your first card (followed by 700 wood) in such a case.

You don't build a trade post because you start your Schooner boom while stil in Discovery. Building your two docks brings you the first shipment almost as quickly as if you had built a trade post.

And there lies the HUGE Ottoman advantage in Schooner booming. The starting wood. They can start double-dock booming in Discovery, and only slow down their age up time by 30-40 seconds. In return they arrive in Colonial with 3 times the economy they normally have.

Eventually, after you got some 15-20 Boats going you can even build Trade Posts too.

So if the Schooner boom, which completely dwarfs the IOR in economic power isn't overpowered, then how can the IOR be overpowered?
Indeed the only advantage the IOR has over the Schooner boom is that it doesn't slow down your rush (when not using ATP). With a Schooner boom you will slow down your first attack, if only because of the fact that you'll age up later, close to "normal" civ age up time.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

Then how come I can't break 2130 (1v1) with it? Somehow this supposedly "OP" strat can't get me higher than 20 points above my previous highest rating (2110).

Quoted from ultimitsu:

Now, I respect your word, ultimitsu, but I can't help but wonder how capable those people were. Got any recs of those matches?

Lastly, I have to raise the obvious question. Where are all the people who are calling the IOR overpowered (and not just a very strong strat)? Why are there like three people who are doing so (you, Overclock and some other guy who's name I forgot)?

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 09-10-2006 @ 10:11 PM).]

i give you credit for that is quite good, it in fact uses ottoman unique advantage.

but you realise that, just like other discovery booms, while they can be strong, they can hardly be OP, because it loses the initiative. most civs can FF and then start his own boom with fortress wood, and fight with fortress veteran shipments, there is a oppotunity of use the techonological advantage to balance the economical disadvantage.

Silk Road Rush on the other hand, attacks you early enough that you can not afford ignore it. you could well lose your TC by 7:30.

admittedly, the best player i play frequently is Walker, who hit 2260 a couple of weeks ago, (and i dont remeber if i played against him with this strat) so no, i havent beaten anyone who is vastly superior than me.

EDIT:

i have tried the discovery schooner myself.

building 2 docks and 1 house at the start of the game gains 100 XP, since ottoman get no XP from vils, it has to get its other 200 XP from treasure and just being in the game. without any treasues, ottoman's first shipment is ready at 1:40, only 10~20 seconds faster than other civ.

schooner effect kicks in at 2:20, first 2 boats are built at 2:45 and you have just start a double dock boom. now, if you want to be in colonial by 5:00 which is a whole minute slower than TP+3 vil shipment normal colonial, you need to start aging by 3:30, that leaves you 45 seconds to get 800 food! i dont think that is at all possible.

an aim of 6:00 colonial is much more realistic. you will have to put some vils vils back to food if you want 800 food by 4:30, but to keep constant boat production you will need a little over 6 vils, on top of the vils you need to make houses. I have not yet worked out the optimium swtching point, but I can safely say that you can not have a non-stop boom and an attack fast enought o be called "rush" at the same time.

you can have a 7:30~ish delayed "rush" with 2 barracks constantly pumping out jans, while very good, i can not say it is over powered.

oh and i dont think 3rd dock in colonial dock is that beneficial from booming point of view(maybe good for defence), at 7:00 you will aready have 22 boats made, fishes will run out quite quickly, once fishes are all gone, most maps will only have average 6~8 whales, so your 3rd dock is unlikely to make enough boats to justifiy its cost and the number of vils needed to keep its boat production.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 09-11-2006 @ 02:01 AM).]

If you have 3 TPs with silkroad and stagecoach and you put all 3 on wood you can do a 2 or even 3 dock schooner boom in Colonila while your vills alone power your jan stream.

And as soon as you got a couple of boats you will be able to mass jans from 2 raxes while you get enough resources to go to fortress age.

PS: what do you think: Is it better to stay in Colonial and make abus vs an FFing opponent (after you retreated with your original rush because of aging skirms and stuff), or to go semi FF with EP?

I usually try to go Fortress aswell to get veteran jans/spahi/veteran abus guns but thats just me.

Any thoughts?

Otto TC makes vils regardless whether it is aging, the 110 seconds aging time is not much of a eco problem. if you are to go to fortress after your initial rush fails at around 9~10 minute mark, spahis will not be very effective when they come out at 11:00, because by then he will be strong enough to get goons. if spahi is not the reason for fortress then extra wait isnt really a huge deal, but the reward is good. 1 galley + 400 wood is very nice on water maps, 4 hussars and 4 abus are both good. therefore i dont think you really need EP for fortress in that kind of scenario.

if you hit early enough and hard enough, and kept the momentum going, and he still pushed FF, then he would be living on thin ice, thus you can put that 2200 res towards 20+ jans, which could kill him altogaher.

Both stay in colonial and FF would work, it would depend on some factors that you have to calculate on during the game, such as his state of economy, your unused reources, his fortress deck and your remaining colonial cards.

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No reason to get defensive.

Its quite obvious, from the fact that it is just a modified janissary rush (like Ender said, you can't tack a build-order on to it, like a janissary rush, it entirely depends on the situation what you have to do.)

Quote:

You don't realize, that with a 500 wood start, Ottomans only get one trade post. With a 500 wood start, Ottomans effectively get 2 docks, or they can get one dock and produce 2-3 fishing ships and use the leftover wood toward the next dock later.

You don't even need to build two docks all at once-that would be stupid. Instead, build one, build some boats. Then, after you hit age up, when you have finished the 800 food, you set 6-7 vils on wood, gather more wood for more boats, you get a second dock, and pump out more boats.

This way, your age up time is not affected at all. Many times, I'll notice that my 3 vil shipment arrives shortly before I get 800 food, so those 3 vils really don't do anything. I have 800 food ready, so schooners is a fine alternative-I just put vils on wood after I have 800 food, my age up time is slower by maybe 10 seconds but stronger by a lot more.

Quote:

What?

Why do you need to colonial so late? You can simply do the above, as I said.

There's no question about it, schooner powered janissary rush beats a silk road rush every time, especially when you simultaneously grab one or two trade posts in early-mid colonial using wood shipments/quartermaster, and harrass your opponent using janissaries.

There's also no reason there should be confusion about staying in colonial until 7 minutes. I know what Ender is talking about, since I have done it myself.

Quote:

If you missed it.

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Watch some of Ender's recordings and come back and say this... I'ts retarded how much it gives you and this will be nerfed within 2 patchs.

It's OP because of:

1. Otto fast age time
2. Otto starting wood
3. Otto free settlers
4. Otto very powerful age II troups
(by this I mean, if most other HCs had this card, it would not have the same effect as giving it to Otto)

The fact is Otto have a very strong age II rush as it is, 3+ TPs makes it much stronger...

[This message has been edited by ddemers (edited 09-11-2006 @ 10:10 PM).]

Quoted from ddemers:

I'm sorry but this is so beyond wrong it just boggles the mind. Give the other civs Silk Road with their starting economy, and they'll be broken beyond all belief.

Just there mere thought of my Dutch getting Silk Road makes me salivate ...

ATP first card, age with 14 vil, 10 on wood in transition , build Trade Posts, 400 wood age up, research Stagecoach, build Barracks, Silk Road second card, 700 wood third card, build another Barracks, build the rest of TPs, set them all to wood (perhaps one on food), 8 Pikes 4th card, 700 food 5th card. Etc.
Train about 10 Skirmishers and just spam Pikes with everything else you got until ~20 or so (including the shipped ones). Go raze the enemy TC, then houses, then everything else. Keep streaming Pikes into the base, reinforce with Skirmishers from time to time.

It would be so broken as to not even be funny. That's because Pikes are much faster and have way more seige power than Janissaries. Plus you get 8 in a shipment while you're training more. It would be utterly insane.

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 10-09-2006 @ 04:45 PM).]

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Your telling me this would crush an otto player doing the same thing? Abus / Jans would crush an army of pikes with a few skirms...

In fact Dutch are the only other HC that could benifit in an op way like Otto because they have strong units that do not rely on wood. (please not I said most Hc's in my previous post).

Quote:

Again this is why it is OP for the Otto HC, think about it, they can get 1-2 TPs before other HCs can get one (unless they ship / chop wood in age I).

1. Dutch can come close to their age up time (important for getting that 400 age up wood and training stage coach faster)
2. No other HC gets 400+ wood to play around with at the start of age I.
3. No other HC gets this.
4. I believe only Dutch get uniquly powerful units in age II, however French can get skirms with a card.

-- Now add to this... Otto is the only HC that gets silk roads card...
2.

Quoted from ddemers:

Ottomans and Russians (civs against which Skirmishers/Pikes won't work in Colonial) are just 2/8 civs. Against everyone else Skirmisher/Pike works just fine.
Or hell just put those resources into getting Banks up against FFing civs. That would be even scarrier.

Against Ottomans and Russians you'll be using Hussars and Skirmishers. Or perhaps Grenadiers and Pikes. The point is that if you had Silk Road powered TPs you could afford enough Hussars to raid your Ottoman opponent to death. Resources are resources, how you put them to use is up to you.

Quoted from ddemers:

Fast age up (by 30 seconds to a minute) is overestimated in importance against non-rushing civs. It would be more important to have a crazy economy and be pumping troops by the time a FF attack (say from Spain) occurs.

Quoted from ddemers:

The starting wood is not necessary, because of ATP and higher villager counts upon arriving in Colonial. Chopping alittle bit of wood for the first ATP, using 400 wood for the next (and to research stagecoach), using 700 wood for the rest.

Quoted from ddemers:

Umm, you brought up the theoretical idea of other HCs getting Silk Road, and how it would not be anywhere as good as for Ottomans (with which I strongly disagree).

Quoted from ddemers:

Are you kidding me? Strelets. Imagine facing 100 Strelets by 9 minutes. What'll you do against that?

Russia would be so ridiculously overpowered it wouldn't even be funny. Cavalry will never work against the masses of Strelets that would be possible.

Then there are Brits that can either mass an insane number of Longbows, or put those TPs on wood for a huge manour boom explosion.

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 09-12-2006 @ 02:22 PM).]

Best colonial units - mostly colonial fighting therefore inclusion more colonial crates. While i think SRSCTP is too good for colonial warfare, I dont think SRSCTP is OP for FF, (at the least not that this stage) due to its cost slows down FF and FF battle are more unit shipment reliant, civs like french, spanish, german, port, who has to be in fortress to be competetive wont benefit as much.

Can afford to send Silk Road - without a starting TP like ottoman, Spanish is the only civ who can have that spare shipment to be used towards something that mostly benefit other shipments in initial stage. most civs cant afford it, it will mess up their timing. of course this is just my speculation.

Starting with 400~500 wood, 2 TPs up by 4:00 colonial - for other civs, sure they can do a 13~14 vils 4:35 colonial, and ship ATP as first card, BUT, they wont be chopping wood for TP until they have clicked age up button, by the time you are ready to start building your first TP, ottoman is already building his second. It would be OK if maps had unlimited number of TPs, but we know that is not the case. on maps like yukon, him grabing the centre 2 TPs means your ATP investment has just been wasted.

Free Vils - With other civs, you have to move 5~6 vils back to food /gold to keep constant vil production, therefore your 14 vils colonial is actually a lot less than ottoman's 14 vil colonial. this affects rush badly.

400 wood aging politician - Vital for instant stage coach reseach up on hitting age2. although only 2 civs dont have it, but these 2 civs are amongest the best to setup Silk road eco - british for their extra starting wood, and spanish for their affordablity of silk road card.

====
Being a russian player, i cant think of a good way to effectively use this card with russian's gameplay, russian's 14 vil+ATP colonial is the slowest of all - only made worse by more vils on food is needed during tansition to get 270 food ready for first batch of colonial vils. most people will consider 17 vil to be a better approach, but that would mean a very cool 5:10 colonial time and 6:30~ish stage coach time, if you manage to get enough TP to justify stage coach at all. secondly russian rush heavily rely on 13 strelets and 5+4 cossack shipment, russian either delay their rush and ship res first(to get the most out of it), or ship units first and not to be benefited from enlarged crates much later.

Silk Road TPs don't have to be used in early rushes. Their resource generation can be utilised to further strengthen an advantage that a civ already has. For Ottomans, it's an early attack but of fairly low power that takes a while to grow in power. For Russians it's Strelet massing which for most civs is very difficult to deal with.

The same way I use TPs for a late Colonial attack, a Russian could utilise Silk Road ATPs (if they had the card) by making a delayed attack but one that is overwhelmingly powerful. Not even Spanish could have the needed number of Lancers (and 2 Falconets would be gone in mere seconds) to stop the number of Strelets that could be generated by ~9 minutes.
But you know what? Just make a mod giving Russia Silk Road and try it out.

~~~

Silk Roat ATPs are also INCREDIBLY benefitial in a FF. It shows that you lack experience with the strat that you don't think so. Whatever time I lose by setting up the trade route I make up with Exiled Prince.
From the moment I have 20 Jans I set all the TPs to gold and put most of the villagers to wood/gold. Once in Fortress with Exiled Prince I'm able to train 3-4 Falconets (adding into the queue as resources come in) and ship in 2 Falconets.
I've won many games by doing this 20-25 Jan and 5-6 Falconet attack by crippling my opponent.

A few times I delayed to get 5-10 Abus Guns and basically won the game right there by sacrificing most of the Abus to take out Culverins. Without the Silk Road TPs the amount of Falconets would be cut in half, and I most certainly could not afford any Abus Guns.

This type of FF also works wonderfully in defensive mode against the Spanish FF. Jans deal with the Lancers while your Falconets deal with everything else. And you have LOS advantage. The only thing you need to do in Colonial is defend your TPs with the Jans you made.

To think about it, it would be true for any civ. If every civ got the card, Ottomans would be the weakest: their regular economy is simply too weak to take advantage of it.

Quote:

It probably would, even if he was making useless pikes.

Why? Because the Dutch economy is already so much better than the Ottoman economy, with silk road added on top the Dutch player would simply win through attrition, making more units than the Otto.

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Don't ship 300 wood.

Instead, you save the shipment, or send ATP: this is what happens.

You age with 14 vils as normal, but after you hit age up, you set about 10 vils on wood. Get as many TPs as you can, as fast as you can. When you hit age 2, you use quartermaster for a forward blockhouse, or a defensive blockhouse, as well as a house, and 50 spare wood goes to stagecoach/more TPs.

3 TPs=450 wood, or 900 VS. If you click age up at 3:00, and put 8 vils on wood, you get

10*90 VS out of it, which means you gather 450 wood by 4:30, which means your last TP should be up around 5:15ish, latest. Stagecoach goes up, you immediately put all vils except for 5 onto food, to get vil production back up.

Stagecoach, silk road, strelets from blockhouse.

Ownage.

1. Silk Roads is not OP

2. How Silk Roads would make other HCs OP

Can you see the confusion here?

Quoted from ddemers:

No confusion.

Ottoman regular economy is inferior to other civs' economies (in particular French, British and Dutch early, and Russians by mid game). Silk Road trade route's power is held back by the weakness of the Ottoman villager based economy. For Ottomans, it equalises the difference in economy.

For other civs, however, it would better on top of already better.

Am I correct that you follow this logic, Ultimitsu?

The bone of contention, then, is the assumption that the standard Ottoman rush is powerful beyond the newb levels.

I just have never been able to kill 25 jans and 10 abus guns with 6 age up skirms and 6 minutemen like all the good players have apparently always been able to do.

Quote:

i never said its not. SRSCTP will always be benefitial, regardless the age.

I was refering to the other benefit of Silk road, the one that was not unintentional - boosting crates. FF - shipment unit powered civs benefit less and slower from that.

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this is where russian is vastly different to ottoman.

ottoman can still fight anyone while staying in colonial, provided having a good eco, because abus guns keep falconets checked.

russian's only true colonial strength is strelets and muskts, both die very hard to falcs and mercs.

should the russian left opponent unchecked till 9 minutes, he will be facing 4~6 falcs and 1~2 lots shipped fortress units, or worse, a fort and 4 towers.

if russian was to wait for 9 minutes before lauching a colonial attack, it doesnt really need silk road. doiuble dock schooner boom gets 35 vils worth of eco around 7, that is capable of getting a very huge army by 9:00 also.

IMO silk road's OP is the early hit factor, passing 10 minutes, it is just like any other powerful boom strats - powerful, but nothing more.

Quote:

depending on the definition of "very powerful"

powerful as being the best colonial rush? yes. especially with boosted hussar and weaker TC in 1.08.

powerful as unstoppable? no, not even close. to some civs it is harder to stop and more damaging, but to some it is in fact quite damaging to ottoman should the rush not succeed within a certain time frame. the only time i lost to a otto pure age2 rush was when i first started play duitch and was expereimenting fcuk FF back in 1.07.

in terms of stanrdard otto gameplay, what is stronger than pure rush is a rush-semi FF. _rAiN is still at up there with it.

Silkroad however, takes otto rush to a completely new level.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 09-12-2006 @ 05:35 PM).]

Quoted from Somme:

Magic won that game, though, even if it was by a hair. He won it with one of the most vulnerable civs to an Ottoman rush (when not prepared for one, which Magic was not).

Somehow you don't see any other experts complain about the Ottoman rush. The standard version is simply not viable beyond a point.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

Not exactly. Take Spain for example. Much of the time they will benefit more out of locally produced Skirmishers or (additional) Falconets rather than sending Highlanders or Swiss Pikes (like in that game vs Syncope on Great Lakes that you posted). In such a case having a 1300 gold shipment would definitely help.

Infact, any civ that ever sends the 1000 resource cards in Fortress after sending the "good" unit shipments, would benefit from Silk Road's shipment enhancement.

Even before Fortress, getting 910 gold instead of 700, means you only need to mine 90 instead of 300 gold, thus the mine will last longer. Or you may not need to mine anything at all and stil have the gold for emergency Minutemen if you aged up with The Governor.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

No, it's massed heavy infantry that has a good melee attack that keeps the 2 Falconet shipment checked. Or well timed melee cavalry.
Abus Guns aren't even necessary. More often than not I don't even have Abus Guns on the field, yet, by the time those 2 Falconets appear. ~10 Jans in stagger then melee mode take care of 'em, while the other ~15 focus fire at range.

And what Janissaries can do, approximately three times their number of Russian Muskets can do as well.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

That's being completely disingenous. One of Russia's Colonial strengths is the ability to ship in 9 cavalry units. Have you watched Blue Gaiden, Ourk and M4rKy playing Russians in 1.08? They save those Cossacks and use them to suicide-kill the 2 Falconet shipment while focus firing with Muskets/Strelets at range (to make sure the cannons die).

More and more players are showing that it is indeed possible to fight the early FF troops effectively with the right combination of Colonial troops.

There's something I've been doing myself recently against the Spanish FF that's been working wonders. When my opponent reaches Fortress I quickly put down a stable and train 5 Hussars. I then use these to assasinate the 2 Falconet shipment while focus firing with the ~20-25 Jans. It's nearly impossible to save those 2 Falconets for my opponent.
Why the Hussars? Beacause they aren't as gold heavy as Abus Guns, so they take less resources from my age up to fortress gold (I usually try to follow my opponent to Fortress within a couple minutes) and they aren't as vulnerable to Lancers or focus fire from the Falconets. Spanish players who face Ottomans usually age up with 4 Hussars and don't ship in additional anti-cav, so they aren't prepared for those Hussars to show up. Particularly when they haven't seen a single one from me earlier in the game and the 3 Hussar shipment is not in my deck.

And no, I didn't come up with this, I just stole the trick from those Russian experts mentioned above and adapted it for my Ottomans.

Quoted from ultimitsu:

Those time/number combinations you posted are very much on the generous side, unless you're facing an Ottoman with a fully established Silk Road trade route.
Most Spanish players, for example, only get to Fortress by 7:50-8:15. By 9 minutes they would have at the very best 4 Falconets, two of which came from shipments. Which only leaves time for one more Fortress shipment (likely 5 Lancers) and the age up troops (8 Pikes/4 Hussars).
The numbers you posted only become realistic if you add atleast a minute to that time.

Ofcourse if the Russian has a Silk Road trade route working for him (*shudder* at the concept), the number of Muskets he'll have + the 9 Cossacks from shipments will fairly easily take care of even 4 Falconets. Stagger mode then melee half the Muskets at the Falconets, use Cossacks simultaneously. Should actually be easy as pie, because the Spanish player has no Skirmishers at that point.

It might even be more benefitial to skip the 4 Cossack card completely and just train 5 more locally for 10 Cossack total. Considering that you can spend a shipment on 910 food or 910 gold, instead of 4 measly Cossacks.

Oh to behold the horror of a Russian with Silk Road ...

Quoted from ultimitsu:

Umm, let's take the most challenging opponent for a Russian: Spain. Which Spanish Mercs will pose a problem for mass Strelets and Muskets?

Highlanders? Nope. Strelets will annihilate them while Muskets provide additional firepower. Indeed this is why I very rarely found myself sending Highlanders against Russia while playing Spanish. I found training Skirmisher and Lancers locally (and shipping in more) to be much more benefitial. Relying on good old age up/shipped Pikes for anti-cav protection.

Swiss Pikes? Also Strelet/Musket fodder.

Stradiots? The only Merc that will actually deal good damage, but will stil die to mass Muskets. Even against Russian Muskets Stradiots aren't cost effective.

Indeed, aside from the German Hackapell shipment, what Mercs should a Russian mass Strelet/Musket/Cossack combination fear? Even Jaegers won't hold up for long. And Mamelukes couldn't come near the Muskets, they're not Spahi.

Gee, and we wonder why Russia is so strong in 1.08 ...