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Topic Subject: Aztec Rush
posted 11-09-06 08:17 AM EDT (US)   
Posted this at Sanctuary, but it doens't have that many replies there... I'd really like some input as to how I can improve this one.

Aim, strat 1: Sub 4-minute Colonial, with 10 Coyotes in enemy base at 4:55 to pin down vils; followed by spearmen to wack buildings.

Aim, strat 2: Sub 4-minute Colonial, but with 11 Rodeleros in enemy base at ~ 5:10, followed by supporting troops shortly after.


I use one basic BO, and then one of two alternatives, depending on circumstances and map layout.

First off, I don't use fertility dance in discovery, as I read the post with sound mathematical reasoning which proved (for one TC?) that it doesn't pay-off in villie secs unless u do 19 vils or more, in a row, while dancing.

Yesterday in a team game, this strat (alt. 1) held up against two AoE3 majors ( we are both 1st Lt's ) 2v2 Aztec + French who sent in hussars, then boomed vs. Otto's + Iroquois -- Using Abus(e) and Tommy's.

My teammate and I both agreed that we won (both) game(s) because we forced them to think defense on account of the supersonic raiding. But, I know I can improve, I tend to lose my focus, not knowing how to balance the eco so that I may boom to a satisfactory level.

So,

Basic BO is of course

2 shoot hunt
2 pick food crates
1 pick wood crate
Que villie
Get the nearby treasure

As soon as the first wood crate is done, set the villie to build a firepit.
Other 2 vils pick rest of the crates, then go to hunts.

When firepit is done, have the vil go to hunts, and put your WP in the pit - dance for XP.

All villies go to hunts, vil 8 builds house first though.

1st Card: 3 vils.

2 vils find/eat forward hunts.

Stop producing vils at either 15 or 16, depending on Food treasures or not.

Now a lot of things are happening in a very small time-frame:

Usually, if you've taken time to kill guardians, and/or found XP treasure, you can send your second shipment in due time before aging.


Alternative 1: "Standard raiding"
2nd Card: 300 Wood.

Click age-up, use the Fast Age-up guy.

Put 3 vils on wood, you need 350 in total.

Put 1 or 2 hunters to gather the crates when they arrive, it's usually right about when u click to age-up.

Have your forward vils construct a hut, and have the guys on crates construct a house. When it's done you'll have enough XP for yet another shipment. Well, if you found XP treasures, no worries, right... but we're not always that lucky.

You should reach age-up at 3:45 ~ 4:05

Warhut finished
Cue As Many Coyotes as you can afford
3rd Card: 5 x Coyote Runners
Set the HC shipment delivery to warhut
Add Coyotes to the cue, so it maxes at 5 - as you get res.


When done, queue a Mace, add to queue as you get res.

Re-distribute your eco, so you do not get housed. 60% food / 40% wood. Sometimes I go harder on wood, so I can put another hut up somewhere.

(I'm thinking to go on gold here - for pumas... I dunno, will have to in 1v1, but so far I've only used the BO in team games)

Have your warhut's waypoint to be where the enemy's critical resource vils are... usually his hunters :-)

Usually only Iroquois, Otto, Russian and Spanish will have some kind of defense / counter attack (that you need to worry about) waiting if you hit around or little before the 5 minute mark.

From there on, just RAID with the coyotes, keep the enemy vils in the TCs. Stay AWAY from direct combat and TC fire.

Raid, disappear, continuos scouting, Raid, disappear, continuos scouting, etc. (well, against a russian, you'd be facing strelets, that drop to coyote's like flies...)

When the maces pop out 6 Spearmen should be underway as your 4th card. (alternative is to send 3 WP's and dance for faster XP, but I only do that if I have them garrisoned all the time - if not I wait until 5th Card)

Switch eco / put all new vils to gold. Split should be 40% food, 30% wood, 30% gold.

Maces are designated as spearmen infantry cover, and nothing else. If you raided well and took minimal losses, the Coyotes will be designated as anti-ranged cover for the spears.

Cavalry, you say..? Why, Coyotes and spearmen handle cavalry quite well together. With the maces there you have a very good little army!

You should have a recovering economy, an upper hand in military units, and effective map control, because the enemy is forced to think defensively. Early Coyotes in his base that won't stand and fight, but return to look for vils constantly has seen to that.

Keep pouring in puma's from the hut and the 10+9 Maces from Cards.


Alternative 2: "Roddy's Feast" (my deck name, innit cute?)
- something I've just started experimenting with. It works OK, but not fine-tuned yet, it can be faster.

Same BO, except the
2nd Card: 300 Gold

Move 2-5 vils on gold as aging
When you have 200 Gold, send them to pick up the crates as they arrive. Time it so the crates are done the instant moment they land.

You want to have 3rd Card ready by the second you hit age II, so move 7-8 hunters to the firepit as soon as you click age-up.

3rd Card: 11 rodeleros (cost 500 gold)

Why? They're as fast as Coyotes, they've got reasonable siege, too! For this strat, I go for any hut or rax I see, and as the defense comes out, I tackle them.

You'll be aged up and send the card at the 4 minute mark. The drawback is that you do not have a hut yet, and so they have to travel far. However, speed = 6, and siege = 20. That's a fair trade compared to 10 coyotes 15-20 secs earlier??

Move all miners to wood, all new vils go to wood.
Build house first, then hut

4th Card: Spearmen to finish the hut / rax - or to kill off some houses, etc. Or send in Maces. Or Some Coyotes. Or some WP's.

Supply with units from your hut as need be.


Am I on the right track..? Constructive comments always welcomed!!

;-)


Integrity - Honor - Courage
The dream of "MadCrazyMoFo's" ( MCMF ) and "The 10th Kingdom" ( _10k_ ) lives and breathes within me.
Replies:
posted 11-09-06 09:39 AM EDT (US)     1 / 26  
Very good, I like it. 5 thumbs up!

That's a very good time to have units raiding the enemy and not bad numbers. It could give you enough time to get your warrior priest / fertility dance boom set up.

Have you tried going full pumas instead? Like building 5 pumas instead of 5 coyotes and shipping 6 pumas instead of the coyotes? It would be no good for raiding but you could easily take out a house or two with them. 11 pumas have a combined 528 siege! That's the same damage output to buildings as 3 and a half falconets (!). After that you could follow up with rodeleros and more pumas. Rodeleros do very against light infantry in small numbers and can help siege.

Also, on treasure heavy maps I would HIGHLY recommend sending 4 janeys instead of 3 settlers. You can get some serious treasures with those guys. Would easily make up for the 300 wood or gold on a decent map. A test I did a while ago showed that on Yucatan I could get 1150 resources worth of treasures in 8 minutes with them.

Again, very good. I'll definitely be trying this out and playing around with it.

Note: Using fertility dance in age 1 IS worth it. That thread you are talking about was a bit incorrect. In any case, as long as you don't use SETTLERS on it in the first age you should be fine. Your warrior priest has little else to do so speeding up villager production can help.


- - ESO Name: poita - -
- - ELO Rating: 2120 - -
- - Civ: Russia + Dutch - -
My Aztec Unit Guide (Updated!)
posted 11-09-06 10:01 AM EDT (US)     2 / 26  
Cool, I'm gonna have to try this out...

The fertility dance in Discovery is pretty useful though... You're not wasting vills or anything on it since you have the WP... So is the 1 XP/second trickle that much better than slightly faster building vills?

posted 11-09-06 10:04 AM EDT (US)     3 / 26  
I just tried this out vs. the expert AI. Very impressive. I tried the puma spearman alternative that I suggested also and it works well too. You can get a house down quite easily and take out barrack etc. in around 10 seconds. Could definitely cripple an opponent while you boom.

The XP dance is really necessary for this. I found that the limiting factor on my speed was when I received the 3rd shipment. You really need every second on the gift dance that you can spare. Get the firepit up ASAP and get dancin'!


- - ESO Name: poita - -
- - ELO Rating: 2120 - -
- - Civ: Russia + Dutch - -
My Aztec Unit Guide (Updated!)
posted 11-09-06 12:01 PM EDT (US)     4 / 26  
Hi Poita, thanks for the feedback with the puma's i'll try that. I have before, to some extent, just couldn't seem to get the right resource balance.

Guess it could work, if I go

1: 3 vils
2: 300 gold
Set 75% villies to wood in age-up (or all but the 2-3 forwards)
Start hut during / at age-up
3: 6 Spearmen

However, I've found that without the right treasures + the pumas walk slower = + 15 secs to get to enemy base, they'll get creamed by LI after knocking down a house or while wacking a rax / hut.

All things being equal, I think that the coyote raid seemed more valid, in order to keep the enemy timid. The puma thing will work if your in a team game with the aim to knock down the enemy forwards, but that's about it I think - because it sacrifices economy to great extent, and knocking down the rax/hut will only delay, not cripple an eco.

I'll experiment more with the puma's ;-)

I did realize that the fertility dance calc was for villies, only it made me start experimenting with using the WP for gift dance in stead, and, like you, I realised that this BO doesn't apply when you dance for fertility (in total, you gain XP slower, even though you get production XP.. ) - you have to dance for XP to do a serious aztec rush IMO.

MeleeMaster12, let's look at the stats:
1 villager: Train Points: 25, XP: 10
1 WP on fretility: Villager train pts. reduced by 20%

= 20 secs, 10 XP = 0.5 XP / sec

1 WP on gift dance = 1.0 XP / sec

(I think, if I read it right- and of course, on the XP dance, you still get 10 XP per villager and top of the 1 per sec...)


I knew I was onto something good here, have received 5 different clan invites since I started using it consitently *LOL* (2 days) - and I have even gotten to beat agent decks because I get to their gold miners with my coyotes before they are in colonial. *LOL* That seriously cripples an agent rush!


Integrity - Honor - Courage
The dream of "MadCrazyMoFo's" ( MCMF ) and "The 10th Kingdom" ( _10k_ ) lives and breathes within me.

[This message has been edited by DanishCasanova (edited 11-09-2006 @ 06:18 PM).]

posted 11-09-06 12:48 PM EDT (US)     5 / 26  
I will try this out as soon as I get on ESO.

Greetings, I'm Synthax.
SirKT 2k+ clan
posted 11-09-06 01:59 PM EDT (US)     6 / 26  
In Basic BO

"Other 2 vils pick rest of the crates, then go to hunts."

To fine tune this and save a few seconds, you can have 1 vil go to hunts once food crates are done.

2nd villager just to unpack the wood crates, then go to hunts and leave gold crates till later when you need gold.

Since you are raiding with coyotes and que mace after, they both only need food and wood.

posted 11-09-06 02:55 PM EDT (US)     7 / 26  

Quote:

First off, I don't use fertility dance in discovery, as I read the post with sound mathematical reasoning which proved (for one TC?) that it doesn't pay-off in villie secs unless u do 19 vils or more, in a row, while dancing.

It does pay off. Are you forgetting that Aztec has priest? If it was useless why build a fire pit in discovery. 20% is better than nothing. 20% means 20% faster settlers. In the time a average civ get 16 settlers you'd have 18 settlers in the same amount of time. 2 settlers when you age up is better cause you can have 6 on wood and 10 on food with the EXTRA 2 for a fb instead of 5 on wood and 9 on food or something.

Fire pit is a must for aztec IMO because i dont like seeing that priest goto no use. Healing? Warchiefs have high hp already, they get to use mind change thingy. A bear can take all the hit and you wouldnt need the priest.

Quote:

mathematical reasoning which proved (for one TC?) that it doesn't pay-off in villie secs unless u do 19 vils or more, in a row, while dancing.

It would be mathicmatically unreasonable to NOT a dancer thats worth 2 settlers.


Lamer: FF.
Me: Why?
Lamer: Cause you'll be in 1 age ahead of the other guys and have a better eco, plus you can turtle and since its on your TC + couple of towers you can't go wrong.
Me: Uh, we're on the G Plains, how the heck am I gonna turtle?
posted 11-09-06 03:54 PM EDT (US)     8 / 26  
yes, and if u read my reply to the reply to the etc. you'd see that I get that, I was referring to the post because it was the thing that inspired me to use gift dance in stead. Should have formulated it differently, my apologies.

Have just tried online with the fertility dance in discovery, and it gives me more resources, but I'll still be a card short, so I cant raid with 11 Coyotes, only 5 to start.

Also, good input on the gold crates, I'll use that hence forth.

Would it best to switch to fertility in colonial and boom, or should I go for priests... hmmmmm...

:-)


Integrity - Honor - Courage
The dream of "MadCrazyMoFo's" ( MCMF ) and "The 10th Kingdom" ( _10k_ ) lives and breathes within me.

[This message has been edited by DanishCasanova (edited 11-10-2006 @ 04:06 AM).]

posted 11-09-06 03:57 PM EDT (US)     9 / 26  
one priest on fertility might make a 20% increase to production, but the XP dance is a 33% increase on XP. Max your XP gathering and you can ship 3 settler card sooner!

I dont think fertility works until you have a war hut to produce units with as well.

posted 11-09-06 04:59 PM EDT (US)     10 / 26  
They are also saying that by leaving it on the Gift dance, even after getting the first shipment, it allows you to get your third shipment in time for the rush.

That is different than I had been doing, and the third shipment was arriving a little late for rush DEfense, which I have more of a problem with than rushing the other guy.

posted 11-09-06 06:26 PM EDT (US)     11 / 26  
I've been lying in bed just now, unable to sleep for 1½ hours... lol.

that's what happens when I get good ideas. I feel like I'm back at AoE 1 again.

Was thinking to put a vil on the pit with the priest at some point indiscovery. I need that wood shipment 15 seconds sooner, and the extra vil on the pit might slow down the age-up time just a tad, ... but if I leave the gold crates, it might even out things a little?

Must try it now.


Integrity - Honor - Courage
The dream of "MadCrazyMoFo's" ( MCMF ) and "The 10th Kingdom" ( _10k_ ) lives and breathes within me.
posted 11-09-06 07:50 PM EDT (US)     12 / 26  
Nice strategies and comments everyone

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[][][][][][][][][][] Stonewall J [][][][][][][][][][][]
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posted 11-09-06 08:30 PM EDT (US)     13 / 26  
I understood why the gift dance was important... Getting many quick shipments are important to this strategy... My question was just in general since you did mention

Quote:

the post with sound mathematical reasoning which proved (for one TC?) that it doesn't pay-off in villie secs unless u do 19 vils or more, in a row, while dancing.


I should have made that clearer...

I wish I had something more to contribute... :/ Maybe when I try this strat I'll have more to say...

posted 11-09-06 09:30 PM EDT (US)     14 / 26  
nice one dude, i like it when someone really thinks about his strat
i might try it when i play aztecs, they needed a good rush strat!
posted 11-09-06 09:32 PM EDT (US)     15 / 26  

Quote:

Was thinking to put a vil on the pit with the priest at some point indiscovery. I need that wood shipment 15 seconds sooner, and the extra vil on the pit might slow down the age-up time just a tad, ... but if I leave the gold crates, it might even out things a little?

I'm at uni just now but I have an idea:

Instead of sending 3 vils as first card and having the WP on the gift dance, send 4 per jaguars and have him on the fertility dance, here's why:

As you probably know, the Aztec warchief gives double xp for units around him. When you get treasures with your jaguars, you get a hell of a lot of XP for it and the jaguars allow you to kill a lot more treasure guardians than you could otherwise. I usually get my 3rd shipment at 4 minutes when using jaguars and I've had it as early as 3:30 with good xp treasures. Obviously you lose out on settlers this way but with the WP on fertility dance, you should be able to squeeze in 1 or 2 extra settlers in the same amount of time.

I would recommend setting the WP to gift dance until you get your first shipment then change to fertlity dance straight away. This way you get your jaguars earning xp sooner and have more xp towards the shipments.

I'll try this when I get home. Got an exam in 4 hours that I need to study for


- - ESO Name: poita - -
- - ELO Rating: 2120 - -
- - Civ: Russia + Dutch - -
My Aztec Unit Guide (Updated!)
posted 11-10-06 07:19 AM EDT (US)     16 / 26  
Oh i didnt see that. 33% more xp is better than fertility now that i think of it. I thought you were just gonna let the priest just hang around. I mis read sorry. Good strat

Lamer: FF.
Me: Why?
Lamer: Cause you'll be in 1 age ahead of the other guys and have a better eco, plus you can turtle and since its on your TC + couple of towers you can't go wrong.
Me: Uh, we're on the G Plains, how the heck am I gonna turtle?
posted 11-10-06 09:07 AM EDT (US)     17 / 26  
I wonder if it is better to do what you suggested or NOT shipping in 3 vills but 300W as first shipment.

Use it to build a rax and use the ferility dance instead of the xp dance.

While aging, chop 50 wood and get a house+forward warhut, then queue up as many pumas or coyotes or w/e as you can and then ship pumas/maces/coyotes.

Also, how about using the big button jag tecs to rush? It can really screw a Spanish FF if you go in there with 10 maces+9 jags with 12 jags not so short after.

posted 11-10-06 10:06 AM EDT (US)     18 / 26  
Good points, both from Voltiguer and poita.

Seing as the purpose is to hit with Coyotes for supersonic raiding / hit base at no later than 5:00 with 10, with the intent to kill 2-4 vils and keep the rest garrisoned to cripple income... both could be viable alternatives.

Of course, you cannot send the 3rd card or produce units before you age-up. And... if you aged-up in time, you cannot produce units if the hut isn't done (but you can still send the card, but you'll be raiding with less units for 10~15 secs). Therein lies the true challenge of how to balance the BO in the aztec coyote raid rush. (but not in the roddy's feast, if you just send them to your TC, but then you hit the enemy a little later...)

Now, for 2 vils it takes approx. 20 seconds for 3 villies to get up a hut, right, and Coyotes take approx 30 secs to train?

Well, put the WP on fertility as soon as u get to age, so they train -20% = ~24 secs. Assuming you already got that 3rd and crucial shipment coming, by now, you've just gained 6 seconds to enjoy a panicing enemy.

Calculating backwards, everything in "worst case estimates"


Units in enemy base: 4:55 ~ 5:00
3rd card lands: 4:40 ~ 4:45
Units produced: 4:35 ~ 4:45
Units queued: 4:00 ~ 4:10
House #2 built: 4:10
Ship 3rd card: 4:00 ~ 4:05
Age-up: 3:40 ~ 4:00
Hut in prod. (3 vils) 3:45 (micro mgt. buffer!)
300 Wood gathered 3:43
300 Wood lands 3:35 (?)

Voltiguer's idea I like because, you are SURE you get to build the hut a looong time before you hit age-up button, thus giving you 100% certainty of the last of the needed extra XP for that important 3rd card through a completed warhut as you're aged up. You might just lose a few seconds towards age-up time, but having the wood earlier makes it possible to construct the hut even closer to your enemy? Dunno, haven't done any math on that alternative.. ;-(


The trade-off in poita's suggestion is a slimmer eco (you lose 3 villies), meaning your raid must wack X villies and keep XY VilliSecs garrisoned to pay off? Plus, it won't make age-time much faster(?) - since the best way (just to make sure) to have the hut up in time is to have 3 forward builders, which is 25% of your villie force then...

Lots of possible BO's here...

Anyway, as long as you are aged, have a fwd. hut, 2 houses, 1 coyote queued (more as you get res) AND you're ready to ship card # 3... at the 4 minute mark... you're looking good and ready to take the wind out of most of the mid-range std. 17 villie 4:40 - 5:10 colonial times, right?

Think I'll try reversing the 300 wood and 3 villager Cards, at least in the next few games... Thanks for the feedback guys!!


Integrity - Honor - Courage
The dream of "MadCrazyMoFo's" ( MCMF ) and "The 10th Kingdom" ( _10k_ ) lives and breathes within me.

[This message has been edited by DanishCasanova (edited 11-10-2006 @ 10:11 AM).]

posted 11-10-06 12:45 PM EDT (US)     19 / 26  
NP^^

Hm I think it should work vs Russia.

Get their blockhouse with some pumas or go to their base and shred some houses to pieces if you are fast enough.

Then spam coyotes/maces depending on whether he makes strels or musks.


posted 11-10-06 03:04 PM EDT (US)     20 / 26  
Bah, if there's one thing the world doesn't need it's MORE rushers...

Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?
posted 11-10-06 03:29 PM EDT (US)     21 / 26  
Dutch will be immune to the Coyote and Rodelero versions of this strat, but, the Puma Spearmen version could takem them out of the game right then and there. Particularly if you forget about Macehualtins and ship/train Coyote Runners to support the Pumas you've already shipped in/trained.

For example, if you keep your warchief around as you take down a Bank, you'll get 360XP. That's a shipment right there. But take down houses first for 40XP each. You probably won't find an offsite Barracks unless you've sent the Pet Jaguars and use those to scout.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
posted 11-13-06 12:04 PM EDT (US)     22 / 26  
Gift dance with 1 wp doesnt really help alot, whereas killing treasure gaurdians gives a decent amout as well as treasures. Try saving the 100 firepit wood for a faster barracks and using your cheif and wp to hunt for exp, along with the cheifs ability to turncoat gaurdians you can have quite the little discovery army and if you can find your enemys explorer and kill him its another 100xp. I know in Yukon 1 polar bear gives you 50xp.... which is more than gift dance will give you in your transition from discovery to colonial with the messenger.
posted 11-13-06 03:24 PM EDT (US)     23 / 26  
Can't believe I just got around to looking at this, but this looks very nice! Good-looking strategy, hope I can try it out soon. Poita's Puma Spearman build also looks like it would work very nicely. Good stuff, guys...

Quoted from Ender_Ward:

Dutch will be immune to the Coyote and Rodelero versions of this strat


Is this because you anticipate that they would turtle too well against it or is there another reason Dutch would be strong against this?

Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style

[This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 11-13-2006 @ 03:26 PM).]

posted 11-13-06 05:01 PM EDT (US)     24 / 26  

Quote:

Is this because you anticipate that they would turtle too well against it or is there another reason Dutch would be strong against this?

Dutch just have a very 'compact' early game. Since their vils cost gold and not food, they stay on their first set of hunts for longer than other civs, which means that their vils will be close to the TC during raids. Also, banks are unraidable so the strat would not effect them.

Probably best just to out boom a Dutchy with Aztecs.


- - ESO Name: poita - -
- - ELO Rating: 2120 - -
- - Civ: Russia + Dutch - -
My Aztec Unit Guide (Updated!)
posted 11-13-06 05:23 PM EDT (US)     25 / 26  

Quoted from poita:

Probably best just to out boom a Dutchy with Aztecs.


Interesting thoughts, that does make sense. I've lately been trying to force action with the Dutch player quickly out of fear that they'll FF with an outstanding economy and merc-spam me into next week. But perhaps it's better to just scout and boom as much as possible to get myself in position for the inevitable showdown.

One approach would be to force colonial action with the Puma version of this rush and attempt to boom in the background to get my Warrior Priest count up in time for fortress (getting a stronger attack dance ready for the large battles.) I wonder if that'd work...


Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
posted 11-13-06 06:20 PM EDT (US)     26 / 26  
dutch are still possible to raid...and wont puma own banks?

ESO: empirejoao3
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