Mikuai_UK (sp?) i have played Russia a crap load and they still suck! i have a HC of about 32 (i know it aint high) but its not like i havent played much with them...They SUCK.

I know it was your two cents lol :P

This was my 2 cents lol :P =P

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i told you that you are just too new to the game...

first card : exploerer upgrade + war dog
second card: colonial militia or ATP or save it for FF.

aging with 500 food at 5:53, the moment you click aging move 12 to 13 vils to gold. upon arriving age2, re-allocate vils so you will have just 1200 food + 1000k gold when you finish pick up the 500 food, this takes less than 30 seconds, click aging again.

net result: fortressed at 7:50 and also having 2 to 3 shipments ready. if you really worried about spanish 6:40 FF, you can do exile prince yourself and getting FF at 6:50.

Im back Ultimitsu !!!

J/K Anyways, Ulti i like your thoughts here, but it seems as in many of your posts you forget that not all Russian players have a lvl 30ish HC.

You cant get ATP, or uber cards when u have a lvl 10 Russian city or 20.

I think the extra 100 food helps significantly.

When you look it at on paper it looks like nothing but an extra 100 food is alot, thats 2 batches for free basically meaning u can have 11 vills in 100 seconds. Not bad.

I think it was meant as a little eco boost early, which Russia needed.

Even tho i have lost all but one of my games since the patch, i played 3 with Russia and lost all of em. Im on a bad streak here.

Ulti, a question real quick.

When i play (with any civ) i tend to not make cannons.

Is this really bad idea? I usually let other units with good siege attack buildings and what not, but i havent been winning lately, can a lack of cannons really jepordize your army?

The nice thing about the extra food that on Hispaniola and Carolina you get 800 food at the start, age up immediately and ship cossacks, and raid them even before they have enough food to go to colonial.

Are you serious, Sjonnie?

800 food at start???

WOOT! Russia on Hispaniola FTW!!!

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Always make cannons. They are the best units in the game. They own infantry too. Just use the units with good siege, which are also usually anti-cav, to defend the cannons.

[This message has been edited by F1RE_FLY (edited 03-02-2006 @ 05:26 PM).]

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that is a very bad idea.

falc and heavy cannon are the best units in the game, there are many reasons:

1, they have 75% range resistance, that means ranged units will never kill them.

2, they do awsome seige damage for their price and pop, they are way out of firing range from tower, falconet is in range to TC, but then you have 75% resistance. just comepare 1 falc to 5 pikeman or 5 halb.

3, they do way too much damage to infantry, on pop or cost basis, 1 falconet does 300 dmg + splash in 1 shot to all infantry, 5 vet skirms will only do about half that, at less range.

4, the only way to kill them really is melee cavalry and cuverin, you can beat cuvlerin with culverin, you beat melee cavalry easy with a few melee infantry or ranged cavalry.

you will see every expert player always use falconet in age3, and you will see late games are always cannon wars.

as for lower level TC cant do ATP, just use it, you wont have 400 wood aging option below lvl 50 anyway. you dont always need ATP, you can get explorer card for early treasure hunting and colonial militry for defense.

Thanx.

You are saying I am unexperienced in Russians. I will explain the irony of this statement with this quote.

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First off, I have a lvl 40 russian HC and I do not have the 500 food age up politician yet. Call me inexperienced? To do your so-called strat, you need a HC higher than 40...most players here have less than 30, probably less than 25, as russians.

Second: you aren't creating vils in age2 with your strat. Right there, your vil advantage from discovery goes down the drain. Your opponent will probably raid you if he's smart with a HC shipment. When I play as russians, I send the cossack card so I can raid my opponent while I age up. I hit age2 at an average time of around 4:30, on good games I can hit at 4:20 and sometimes I end up late and hit 4:45. Even with a cossack card sent @ 4:45, my cossacks come out at 5:15-5:20 and hit my opponent's town at 5:45-5:50...now that is with a 4:45 colonial time. With a 4:20 colonial time, my cossacks would hit at 5:20, 30 seconds before you age. You're just gettting into colonial with that strat. I can kill 2-4 vils easily with the raid and kill your vil advantage so easily, its not even funny.

With other civs, this is worse. They can FF, which is much more devastating than any econ slowing half musket rush I use as Russians so I don't have to FF slowly with no vil cards (I up, use wood politician and make blockhouse, send cossack shipment, make 3-4 blocks of muskets, make several blocks of vils, and age up around 9 mins while slowing enemy's econ)

Who says you need to get mercantilism as soon as you hit fort? Other civs could simply send a falc card, create some pikes/muskets from the barracks, and use their units from age-up to attack: 2 falcs, pikes/muskets and age up units will blow a hole in your face easily before 8 mins...which is when, theoretically, you will age according to what you said about taking 30 seconds between colonial and fort.That is, assuming its true. If I assume its not, it would be a 9 min fort and you'd be dead anyway. Your opponent will just delay mercantilism a bit...

EDIT: I'd like to see a rec if possible...until I see some proof, I highly doubt what you say...or perhaps some stats? Some stats of a game you've played? Since you say it works in practice...

[This message has been edited by LO12DS_Mist (edited 03-02-2006 @ 05:50 PM).]

I really dont see Russians being competetive late game against other civs.

Russian vs Dutch late game = Dutch r Better

Russian vs British

Russian vs Spanish

Russian vs German....

You get the point.

I have played a decent amount of games w Russia, i have to agree w Mist on the FF point.

Also mass Cossacks is overrated.

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that i agree is a problem, russian dont get the powerful aging politicians until 50+

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dude you lost me here, where have you been in the last 2 month? every one is doing FF, every FF does NO vil production in age2.

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FF will always be risky, your FF opponent will not have anything spare to raid you, unless his is german and raid you with that 2 uhlans from 700 gold.

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you are too obessed with your age2 rush that is why you dont know how to do FF.

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have you actually played against anyone that would rather build units on FF instead of sending them?

mercant gives you 3~5 shipments, that is 4~5k worth of army.

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it is extremely hard to have 2 falc attacking at 8 minte, to do that one has to with FF at 6:40, falcs will arrive at around at 7:20 at the earlist, then bring it down to your base by 8:00, you can always send 5 cossack + minute man, using minute man to beat his pike/rods and cossack on his falc, the powerful FF rush is alwasy either merc or mercant.

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which 30 second are you refering to here? it takes 30 seconds to go from arriving at age2 to start advancing, it also takes 30 seconds to do exile prince, if you chose to do exile prince.

Mist, don't try.

Ultimitsu basically plays the *your not experienced enough* card to justify most of his arguements, admittedly in alot of the situations he is right, but in this he is not.

A 5.50 colonial (which is 20 villagers, he was implying a 23 villager somewhere in the thread, for a rather impressive 6.40 colonial time) is suicidal against anyone who has the remotest clue of how to scout.

Well maybe thats too harsh, against someone who is completely intent on FFing, its not that much of a loss, got to make the villagers somewhere, why not before colonial, can possibly fit in another group before heading upwards for an 8 minute or so colonial with 23 villagers and an extra shipment over your opponents. That isn't to bad.

On the other hand if anyone rushes you, your dead. It also hands control of the game to the opponent, which is a very dangerous thing to do as a russian player.
At least in my oppinion, if I don't interupt his econ in colonial, I get trounced come fortress.

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Apparently you have no clue on how to perform a Russian FF. (it is THE worst FF of any civ, so you're much better off attacking in age 2 and then upping at 9 mins instead of screwing your econ and letting your opponent get ahead of you by 30 seconds in time and 4 vils in econ.)

A basic Russian FF is 14 vil up to age 2 or 17 vil up...14 vil up is faster and more flexible: 17 up is for a slower fort time but stronger. Then, if you have 14 vil up to age 2, you make one batch of vils, send 700 gold and up to fort ASAP. Unless you're lvl 50+, this is going to suck because you don't get 500 food with the age up, you get 400 wood. That sets you back like 30-45 seconds. 17 vils, you either stay with the 17 and up or add another batch for an even slower time but about the same power as your opponent. Then, of course, your opponent gets vil cards, so he does NOT need to make vils, however you do, or else you'll be off pace and the only way you'll be able to get back on track is if you raid him.

I think, ultimitsu, that you're trying to copy other civ's FFs and not make any vils during colonial...thats bad. Russians don't FF like other civs: they don't get vil cards, and they need them. For that reason, FF is not a very viable strat for russians unless you are lvl 50+.

BTW, exiled prince is only available for russians after lvl 50, so that is not a viable strat either.

Your only chance as russians is to slow down your opponent's econ while he tries to FF. If you try to copy him and FF as he does, you're going to die if he is equal skill level to you. His FF will be faster, and stronger than yours will be. So, better off delaying the fort time to 8:30-9:00, hitting his econ with cossacks/muskets and getting more vils in so you jump ahead of his econ, then wipe him out.

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Just because I say Russians can't FF for beans doesn't mean I cannot FF. Maybe if you had half a brain you would understand what I'm trying to say. Or perhaps you have half a brain, you just don't exercise your right to use it.

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I don't understand what an army is "worth"...if you're talking res, no, each shipment is worth, at most, 1000 res. (thats with the 2 falcs card) Most unit shipments, like the skirm card sent by some civs, are between 700-900 res. So no, if your opponent sends the 2 falcs and 2 average 750 res shipments, thats 2.5k worth of res, not 4-5k...Thats IF he sends the 2 falcs, if he sends the one falc card, its 500 res+ 2 avg 750s, so thats like 2k.

EDIT: Lol, I said the 2 falc card is 1200 res in my uneditted post...its only 1000...lol

BTW, if you use mercantilism, you're wasting vil seconds gathering coin. Its better to delay it approx. 45 seconds-1 min and instead pump out units that cost mainly food for that duration, then get merc, and send your 3 shipments.

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You say you can "always" send the cossack card...what if you don't have a shipment available? You would probably not save a shipment through the aging up process...so no, I doubt you'd be able to send the 5 cossacks unless you gained XP by killing half my units. Also, who said it HAD to go the way you said it would, that the minutes would kill the muskets/pikes/rods or w/e and the cossacks would kill the falcs? Its much easier for the falcs to fire on the minutes, wipe them out, and for the muskets to kill the cossacks even before they reach the falcs than it is for the cossacks to kill the falcs and the minutes to kill the muskets. Why? Because the cossacks have to run quite a bit to get to the falcs, and the muskets can start firing on the cossacks immediately. The falcs can fire on the minutes immediately, too...Don't forget I'll have some age-up units as well, so its not just 5-10 muskets and 2 falcs.

EDIT: Ultimitsu, whats your ESO name? I wanna see some of your Russian stats...and you got any recorded games of your strat?

[This message has been edited by LO12DS_Mist (edited 03-05-2006 @ 04:39 PM).]

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if you dont call 7:50 without exile prince FF.

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please tell me how fast you get to age3 with that.

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no FF actually uses the age2 vil cards for FF itself, the basisof FF is to make as many vils as possible in age1 and using the aging time to gather enough resources, so upon arriving age2 or shortly after you can advance to age3, this principle is the same to every civ that wants FF,

russian gets no vil card, WOW news flash shit i didnt know that! thanks for telling me.

Russian gets 1 free vil(time wise) with every batch, so making 5 batch of vils gives you 5 vils that didnt take any extra time to produce, therefore minimise russian's early less vil and no vil card disadvantage, giving you enough productivity for FF.

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talking about brain?

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it is on average.

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9 halb : 120 x 9 = 1080
3 organ gun : 450 x 3 = 1350
6 dragoon: 6 x 180 = 1080
6 lancers: 6 x 200 = 1200
9 skirms: 115 x 9 = 1035
9 cassadores: 115 x 9 = 1035
11 musk: 100 x 11 = 1100
4 curis: 4 x 300 = 1200

need i go on?

that does not include german's 3 free uhlans per shipment which worth another 500.

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if you trace back i meantion that for this FF, you dont really need to send the second shipment, and if you treasure hunt enough you will have your 3rd shipment ready before arriving in age3.

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I think that concludes this conversation, you really are a complete noob, this is the first time i heard someone say mercant is a waste, especially considering your experiences are from 1.04.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 03-02-2006 @ 11:07 PM).]

It would help if you would provide an ESO name so we could verify you were actually winning with your strategies. Some recordings would help too.

Though I have little doubt that Ultimitsu knows his stuff, I'd certainly like to see some replays.

I am not the quickest when it comes to making up strategies but I can see where ultimitsu is coming from. I just have one question: did you by chance play aoeII in the 23 villager mongol forward build era?

I think that russia advancing with more vills is viable just because they can make them so much faster than everyone else. It also may compesate for their lousy early economy. I personally am going to try this out before I start bashing it/talking like an expert

BTW currently we have NO entries COMON guys all the ladies at HG are at stake!!!!

Well, I really would like to see some proof of these Ultimitsu strategies in action. Cause they are pretty silly sounding and seeing him do them might be a little better.

I don't have much time ATM...I'll answer the rest of ulti's crap later...

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3 organs: 450 is wrong, its 400 (100 wood and 300 gold) so its 1200, same as the 2 falc. Its just the port version of the 2 falc card.

BTW, when I said 700 res, I was factoring in the fact that food is faster to gather than coin, therefore the res totals are NOT what they are really, but since wood and coin gather almost the same rate, I said falcs cost 1200 res overall...but other cards I said 700-900 because coin is slower than food, food is faster...so no, I think you have to change those numbers to reflect that food is faster gathering than coin. (if u don't, combining res totals is a waste.)

All I haev time for ATM

Quoted from unjugon:

Eey!!! u beat me today. Its a pitey u didnt wanted a rematch.

Those oprichnicks plain old rox...

i must say i played a bit foolish tho

at all the "russia doesnt have a good strat"
BE HAPPY!
adapt your strat to the map (texas = sheep, great plains = natives etc)
Becoz from easy build order things like ottorush or german FF u dont learn anything. No micro, no skill at taking decisions.
If you adapt or make a new plan everytime u play a different map ull learn much more.

I don't see how russians can do a nat strat. Those are usually rushes involving treaties, and with low starting wood, nerfed treaties card, and increased TC HP, I don't see how that's going to happen.

Send 300 wood first card, age up with 14 vils, send NAT card - real tough.

I know you don't think Russia can do anything well and nothing is going to convince you otherwise ZAK, but they can native rush just like everyone else can.

until i get the eso names of Ult and Myst they are terrible players as far as im concerned

Mist is a former ladder champion and a really good player. Ulti sounds pretty sketchy.

But nobody uses mercantilism anymore. Just go the ATP route and you'll get about the same amount of shipments by age 3. I can usually have 3 saved up with faster shipments after that as spanish. With mercantilism I'd have maybe 4 but after that I was done. ATP allows you more power without sacrificing 1000 gold for mercantilism so you can save it for mercs.

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You'll build one TP with that 300 wood. Congratulations. Enjoy your nerfed nat troop shipment at the cost of age time.