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Topic Subject: Math for the new Dutch, gold for wood and the Advanced Market.
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posted 07-27-06 02:17 AM EDT (US)   
OK, as noted elsewhere you actually save villager seconds by buying wood with the new Dutch gold gather rate of 0.69. Every time you buy wood you buy 100 which would take 200 villager seconds (VS) to cut. Therefore the amount of VS you save with a purchase or wood at market rate R is 200-(R/0.69). From this we can determine that the maximum market wood purchase rate at which you save positive VS is 137.

So, with the starting market rate set at 125 and increasing 1 every time you buy 100 you can buy 1300 wood and save VS with each purchase. The total number of VS you save for buying those 1300 wood? Approximately 132 VS total! Your first purchase at 125 saved you 18.84 VS and your last one at 137 saved you 1.449 VS. Not much for depleting your gold mine by 1703 gold for 1300 wood, is it?

Well, lets see how it looks with the Advanced Market. The Advanced Market card sets the buy rate to 80% of whatever it is when the card is played. If you play it before you buy anything, it gets set to 100. That means our first purchase would save us 55.072 VS and we can purchase up to 3800 wood at a VS profit.

The total profit for buying 3800 wood from rates 100 to 137 is ~1074 VS. Now we're talking! But was the card worth it compared to another card? It gained us 942 VS which makes it equivalent to a 471 wood card if there were such a thing. Not bad for an Age 1 card but stil not all that and a bag of delicious potato chips.

Just for fun, let's try this a third way. We'll buy wood without the card up to 137 and then play the card and buy it up to 137 again. If we play the card when the rate is 137 it resets it to 110. Now if we buy from 110 up to 137 we buy 2800 wood for a VS profit of ~588 VS. Combined with our initial figures from above we see that we bought 4100 wood and our net VS profit is 720 VS. We bought 300 more wood than in our second example, but gained 354 less VS. Clearly we can conclude that sending the Advanced Market card before doing any purchasing is the way to maximize our VS profit.

There are a couple more things to consider here. First is that once you've played the Advanced Market card, you've got it if you need it. For instance if all your hunters are garrisoned and you need 400 food for CM, you'll save 100 gold buying that 400 food.

The second thing to consider is that in order to buy 3800 wood in order to realize that maximum ~1074 VS profit, you have to mine 4503 gold to do it. That's 2 mines empty and a 3rd a quarter gone. Considering that Dutch players have to spend gold for everything including using the toilet, this may not be wise. The exception would be if you were doing some strategy involving taking early map control and stripping all the mines clean so that your enemy couldn't have them.

CONCLUSSIONS: Buying wood with mined gold will hardly be worth it without the AM card and will suck your mine dry. In most cases I would recommend just cutting the wood. It's true that buying 400w for a bank in Discovery would save ~67 VS which is a lot in the early going, but the fact that you had to use 100 wood for the market and then the VS to build it negates most of that.

Buying wood with the AM card is much more worth it, but it's still not great enough to make sending the card worth it in most cases. By the time you've mined enough gold to get the max payoff, the 3 villager card could have gained about the same amount of VS and it doesn't have a max.

If, however, you are using a strip-mine the map strategy you probably do want to play the AM card as you are going to end up doing a lot of purchasing since almost all of your villies are on gold. In this case, playing it before doing any purchasing at all is the most profitable.

Replies:
posted 07-27-06 05:33 PM EDT (US)     26 / 42  
Maybe this is ESO's "secret OP Dutch strategy" or at least maybe we're on the right trail.

[This message has been edited by kapranos (edited 07-27-2006 @ 05:34 PM).]

posted 07-27-06 05:36 PM EDT (US)     27 / 42  
Sandy said the 15 percent increase would wokr like a tech.

so say you add the 10 percent icnrease, its the 10 percent increase over the base rate w/o the plus 15%.

just clarifying.

posted 07-27-06 06:09 PM EDT (US)     28 / 42  
Magnum Pi,

I don't see how you are making the leap of logic from this:

Quoted from techtree.xml:

<Effects>
<Effect type="Data" action="Gather" amount="1.30" subtype="WorkRate" unittype="Tree" relativity="BasePercent">
<Target type="ProtoUnit">AbstractVillager</Target>
</Effect>

Which says: "take the base tree gather rate and set it to 130% of the base rate for villagers.

To this:

Quoted from Magnum Pi:

If Circular Saw were to set the villager rate at +30% in total (rather than add it to the 30% already given by Log Flume and Gang Saw, for a sum of 60%) than somehow the relativity would have to be set to both "BasePercent" and "Assign" which is impossible.

(and by the way, where is this "assign" you mention?)

How do you get from resetting the current rate relative to the base rate to it being a cumulative effect? Where do you see in the techtree.xml file that increase from the 1.1 and 1.2 upgrades are added to the 1.3 upgrade, instead of being replaced by the higher grade?

Unless the test Jaafit mentioned actually demonstrated from ingame resource accumulation that the bonuses are cumulative, you have shown no proof other than an assumption that your interpretation of the techtree.xml is correct.

You are assuming that market upgrades work like cards. But it's just that, an assumption.

But I'm fully open to being proven wrong if ingame tests demonstrated that market/plantation/mill upgrades work exactly like card upgrades. Anyone (Jaafit?) done such tests?


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
posted 07-27-06 06:31 PM EDT (US)     29 / 42  

Quoted from jaafit:

Ender, they do add. I've tested that.


agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.
posted 07-27-06 06:39 PM EDT (US)     30 / 42  
Ceres629 had an idea similar to this... here is the link, I hope it helps.

http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,28106,0,all

posted 07-27-06 07:46 PM EDT (US)     31 / 42  

Quote:

Magnum Pi,
I don't see how you are making the leap of logic from this:

Quoted from techtree.xml:

<Effects>
<Effect type="Data" action="Gather" amount="1.30" subtype="WorkRate" unittype="Tree" relativity="BasePercent">
<Target type="ProtoUnit">AbstractVillager</Target>
</Effect>

Which says: "take the base tree gather rate and set it to 130% of the base rate for villagers.

There's your problem. Acually, it is not saying that it take the set percentage (in this case +30%) and assign that new value it gets (in this instance 130%) as the new gather rate. It is acually saying that it will use the amount and relativity that you give it, to come up with a certain number (here, it is .15 [.5 * .3] or, 30% of the base wood gather rate) and then it will add that new number to the attribute it is supposed to (here, it is adding .15 to whatever the wood rate currently is at the time of the upgrade.) That is simply how the data files read "BasePercent".

Quote:

To this:


Quoted from Magnum Pi:

If Circular Saw were to set the villager rate at +30% in total (rather than add it to the 30% already given by Log Flume and Gang Saw, for a sum of 60%) than somehow the relativity would have to be set to both "BasePercent" and "Assign" which is impossible.


(and by the way, where is this "assign" you mention?)

How do you get from resetting the current rate relative to the base rate to it being a cumulative effect? Where do you see in the techtree.xml file that increase from the 1.1 and 1.2 upgrades are added to the 1.3 upgrade, instead of being replaced by the higher grade?

Assign is one of the four relativities available in techtree. The four relativities are:

"Absolute": Adds the amount given to the attribute specifified, disregarding what ever is in proto. If Circular Saw had this relativity, it would add 1.3 to the wood gather rate which would be insanely fast.

"Assign": Sets the specified attribute to the amount given, regardless of what it is at the time of the research, or what is in proto. If Circular Saw had this, then villies would gather wood at 1.3 upon this techs completion. End of story.

"BasePercent": Takes the amount given, and looks into proto code to find the base value, then multiplies. This disregards what the current value is. Once it comes up with a new value, it adds that to what the current rate is. All economic improvements use this so that they do not compound on each other (like compound interest).

"Percent": This takes the amount given and looks at what the value currently in play at the time of research is, then multiplies. This disregards whatever value is in the proto. Once it has figured out the percent, it adds that to the value that exists at the time of research.

Read that carefully and hopefully you will see what I meant when I said that what you are saying is impossible because it would require both "BasePercent" (in order to come up with the +.15) AND "Assign" (in order to come up with the 'proto value + .15' and then assign that as the new villie gather rate.) Having two relativities, of course, is impossible.

Quote:

Unless the test Jaafit mentioned actually demonstrated from ingame resource accumulation that the bonuses are cumulative, you have shown no proof other than an assumption that your interpretation of the techtree.xml is correct.

Acually, it's more than just a blind assumption. It's a well-documented rule of data reading. I've also had plenty of XP with proto/techtree modding (sorry for the cheap pun.) So you can trust me when I tell you how these files work--I've worked with them, and with relativites extensively, and for a long time. Although it would still be nice if Jaafit would post a test, just to clear up any confusion. (I'll do it later if no one else does.)

Quote:

You are assuming that market upgrades work like cards. But it's just that, an assumption.

Market upgrades do work like cards! Again, this is not a blind assumption. Both HC shipments and technologies are coded as technologies in techtree.xml and both follow the same rules, including the well-recorded rules of relativities.

Quote:

But I'm fully open to being proven wrong if ingame tests demonstrated that market/plantation/mill upgrades work exactly like card upgrades. Anyone (Jaafit?) done such tests?

I have to commend you for that. I once debated a forummer at AoMH over wheather the data files will spontaneously "round" the values that are programed into it. I was saying they don't, he was saying they do. As the debate cprogressed, I continued to mount my reasoning and evidence, but he rejected them all saying it has been proven already.

Eventually he got he lost his calmly behavior and posted with a veiled antagonistic tone that repeated over and over that he was right, I was wrong, and that he knew better than to dignify my agruments with his time and attention.

Later I posted a test proving him wrong, but he rejected it using a BS excuse. (This was someone who said that he would not reject facts that didn't accord with his worldview, and also someone who spoke extremely highly of test results throughout the thread.) I devastatingly refuted him one last time, and then he didn't respond again.

Sorry for the story telling, but my point was that if your open to falsification, than you have a very positive image in my view. I'll come back and post test results unless Jaafit (or someone else) does first.

[This message has been edited by Magnum Pi (edited 07-27-2006 @ 07:53 PM).]

posted 07-27-06 07:55 PM EDT (US)     32 / 42  

Quoted from Magnum Pi:

Assign is one of the four relativities available in techtree. The four relativities are:

"Absolute": Adds the amount given to the attribute specifified, disregarding what ever is in proto. If Circular Saw had this relativity, it would add 1.3 to the wood gather rate which would be insanely fast.

"Assign": Sets the specified attribute to the amount given, regardless of what it is at the time of the research, or what is in proto. If Circular Saw had this, then villies would gather wood at 1.3 upon this techs completion. End of story.

"BasePercent": Takes the amount given, and looks into proto code to find the base value, then multiplies. This disregards what the current value is. Once it comes up with a new value, it adds that to what the current rate is. All economic improvements use this so that they do not compound on each other (like compound interest).

"Percent": This takes the amount given and looks at what the value currently in play at the time of research is, then multiplies. This disregards whatever value is in the proto. Once it has figured out the percent, it adds that to the value that exists at the time of research.

Thanks for this. Now that I'm aware of these relatives I've no choice to be concede that I was wrong.

I don't believe it will even be necessary for Jaafit to post his test. With the above in mind, the techs are definitely cumulative.

Which is, actually, excellent! I'm going to force myself to use the secondary market upgrades that I ignored most games.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
posted 07-27-06 09:02 PM EDT (US)     33 / 42  
In AOM, Ekanta and I were able to display the selected unit's gather rate. Unfortunately we cannot here, but I assume that it is the same and all techs/cards work from the base rate.

ie. starting at 0.5 wood / second + 10% from a tech would be 0.55, and adding another tech worth +20% would then make it 0.65 as the current gather rate, not 0.66

The thing that threw me for a loop a couple of times in AOM was that they had sometimes used "absolute" instead of "basepercent", the difference being a whole number value of 1.

posted 07-28-06 06:11 AM EDT (US)     34 / 42  
NOONE answered my question !!!

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posted 07-28-06 09:51 AM EDT (US)     35 / 42  
Buying/selling resources is also affected by what your opponent is doing.

If he buys/sells some sets of resources, the prices change accordingly.

Lategame, check your market now and then. I've had times when buying wood was extremely cheap.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
posted 07-28-06 01:08 PM EDT (US)     36 / 42  
I tried this out last night. I sent 2 +20% mining upgrades and bought 2 upgrades at the market and was able to wipe the map clean of gold in 18:00 (there were 7 mines). I was buying a lot of food, since my gold gather rate was 1.11, translating to a .82 gather rate for food. Now I have some questions that are burning a hole in my head.

Should I send the 2 mining upgrades? Or would 3 and 4 vils be better? The +20% surpasses 3 vils once you get around 22 vils mining, the 2nd +20% beats 4 vils if you have 33 on mines. But 3 and 4 vils are definitely better after the mines run out! Maybe send just one +20% as the 1st shipment, then 4 vils sometime after 8 pike.

Should I send advanced market if the only way I'm getting food and wood is by buying it? Does it become worthwhile?

What do I do when the gold mines run out? I can't exactly throw down 8 banks to replace the 30 vils I had on the mines. I can maybe build 3 banks right away, but that's not much. Then again, my opponent the same problem and no banks, so I guess it's okay.


agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.
posted 07-28-06 03:41 PM EDT (US)     37 / 42  
I'd say that establishing Banks gradually, while you mine the map clean is the best option. You're putting yourself in too much danger if you suddenly need to build all 4-8 at the same time.

Also, I think both mining cards are overkill. 3 villagers followed by Ironmonger is fine IMO.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
posted 07-28-06 04:45 PM EDT (US)     38 / 42  
yeah but where would you throw advanced market in on this? because if you get it, it makes it really easy to just buy ~400 food and wood to plop down a bank and keep doing that whenever possible
i did this on hispanola just vs the comp and sent 3 fluyt card and pumped grens and skirms
first card i sent was Ironmonger. i forget after that, i think i sent a res card. then i aged up i think. wasnt till like age3 i got adv. market i think. but i got mining upgrade at the market too before all of that.

well anyway this strat looks like it could be viable, not sure about going against a rush.

i think it could actually work well against a rush because you could buy wood easily for houses, towers, and barracks. same goes for food.

this strat is also kinda fun, because it breaks away from the ordinary, i mean, what other civ would bother doing this?


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posted 07-28-06 06:10 PM EDT (US)     39 / 42  

Quote:

Lategame, check your market now and then. I've had times when buying wood was extremely cheap.

Neat! Never knew that.


Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
posted 07-28-06 07:21 PM EDT (US)     40 / 42  
well, dont think its because prices go down randomly near the end of a game, its because your enemy or ally sold wood.

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ESO - LO12DS_Fry
posted 07-28-06 08:18 PM EDT (US)     41 / 42  
Dude you have to much time on your hands to do all this math!
posted 07-29-06 07:46 AM EDT (US)     42 / 42  
I guess using that gold to buy wood may be useful for fuelling a pike rush a rush since at that point your opponent won't be able to spare troops to harrass your gold miners as they expand outwards to get more mines as teh existing ones run out. Although spending that gold directly on grenadiers in a grenadier rush may be more useful, maybe it could be combined with the advanced arsenal card to get the grenadier upgrade in age 2?

OTOH buying wood to quickly make a couple banks may make sense also.


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[This message has been edited by THANATOS (edited 07-29-2006 @ 07:46 AM).]

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