furby everything you just posted belongs to a different thread. please refrain yourself from post irrelevent crap here.

Quoted from adam:

1, if you are so unhappy with this besteiros discussion, why dont you get out?

2, if you are so worried about HG being laughed at, why dont you create some interesting topic to talk about?

3, or better yet, go to somewhere else that you dont think you will be laughed at?

4, your rate is not good enough to bash anyone and anything without good backup argument.

5, neither is mine, which is why i always give good reasons for anyting i say.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 01-14-2007 @ 03:13 PM).]

thanks ulti, more new quotes for my sig.

Which good reasons did you give again that it was impossible to beat 40 cuirs (besides that it was impossible because my rating isnt high enough and i was noob bashing)

EDIT: I thought i was allready quite creative with quoting, but when ulti quotes not much of the original meaning can be understood from the quote.

[This message has been edited by schildpad (edited 01-14-2007 @ 03:18 PM).]

1 - 3. because I am not in this discussion, i know I'm not the reason hg is laughed at, and because I will post here regardless of it being laughed at because believe it or not this can be a friendly place to discuss stuff sometimes.

4-5 you aren't a freaking god ulti, I decide if I want to bash you or not, don't tell me what to do as if you're some kind of authority here.

@furby: don't forget to put the part about him refusing to give his own rate.

[This message has been edited by Adam42 (edited 01-14-2007 @ 03:10 PM).]

Please stop discusing size of your D***S (substituted by not important (but relevant in different discusion) statement proven false).

ultimitsu was proven wrong (becose he said that X is impossible and in fact there is special case where it is possible).

It does not proves OPness or notOP ness of cuirs, only that et least some side have strong anti cav.

And it does not belong in dicusion about bestieros (except showing that ulti is sometimes wrong).

part about using rating in arguments, i understand ultimitsu approach as this:
Person A is somehow better than person B and person B use this as argument for his sentense. In such case it does not prove anything, only real arguments matter.
Exception is, if one of the BEST says something. Then there is reason to believe it, even if its unproved (but even best can do mistake, so you can try to prove it wrong).
Important part in short: being BETTER is not enough to prove anything, being BEST is enough to give indicie that it is true (still not prove).

Ok guys, stop with this discussion. It has already turned into a flame war and is clearly not going anywhere... Forget all that and get back on topic, because I really don't want to test my new abilities in any of you. Capiche?

ohhhh Adam42 is Larkyboof. I only just realised.

P.S. Loving the new attitude Walker

Anyway OT: Ulti how would you even go about getting naders at 6:30 - 7:00 with SR?

EDIT: Lol I just noticed you're insulting each other in each others sig *sigh*.

[This message has been edited by George_uk (edited 01-14-2007 @ 03:52 PM).]

I really had hope for this topic. I for one would like to see how to pull off a successful besteiro rush.

for anyone who is interested to try it out, here is the detailed BO for TWC:

otto

if 400 wood start, build 1 TP, send atp, build second TP.
if 500 wood start, buiil 2 TP, send gold trickle.

age with 400w,, during aging chop wood for 1 house, send SR, it is very imporant for SR to arrive fast, because port relies on SR to FF with 910 gold.

build a barrack + reseach Stage coach, barrack up by 4:30.

3rd shipment 700f, make as many jans as possible with it.

4th shipment should be ready by 6:00, send 700 wood. gather it, send it to port.

port

Explorer hunt for XP treasure.

13~14 vil age up, whichever with no idle time, with 400w, but dont gather.

queue 2 vils for age2. 3rd is time permits.

send 700G as first card, wait for SR to arrive before gather.

send UC as second.

age up with exile prince.

during aging gather wood crate and chop wood, build second house, a church, and a barrack. (the build XP are very important)

if all done correctly, fortress should be arrived by 6:00, 3rd shipment should be ready at the same point, send 1000 wood.

at about 7:00, 1300 wood should be gathered, and 800wood should be recieved from ottoman partner, along with 300 wood chopped, we should have the required 2400 for besteiros.

Quoted from George:

i havent done any tests so this is will need some tweak.

same otto BO. french age up with 10~11 CDB, save first shipment, from there on exactly the same as port, except french will need no tribute from ottoman. this should grant a definitely 7:00.

but since middle guard only needs food, and only 1500 of it, it may even be possible for french not to use the 1300 food shipment, and getting them as soon as hitting fortress.

for example, age up with 500 food instead of 400 wood, otto send 700 wood as 3rd shipment, give french about 200, french build a church with that, gathers 500 food after SR arrives (now 650), 13~ish CBD should get 850 food in about 1 minute, assuming age up is clicked at 5:30, by 6:30 we should have all required food ready.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 01-14-2007 @ 04:37 PM).]

^Thanks

IMO the reason behind the besteiros and other TWC balance changes is a lot less complex than the reasons you provide. IMO the reason is simply that the TWC team wanted to emphasize the colonial age over the fortress age. This explains:

-Besteiros: In age3 probably the majority of the time a port would FF more often than a normal civ. ES' solution was to add another 400 wood to the besteiros cost. Along with extra fortress time this was supposed to make ports stay in colonial more often. This makes more sense than ES nerfing besteiros because of its combo with IOR. If that was the case, it would make more sense to get rid of IOR's team bonus.

-Rodeleros: Like with ports, Spain players would FF most of the time in vanilla. ES' solution was to boost rods, thereby giving Spanish players a reason to stay in colonial. I know that is a bad reason for a rod boost, but at least it is a reason that goes with one of the TWC themes. Why ES didnt boost a port colonial unit and nerf the spanish FF we'll never know.

-Not nerfing IOR: This encouraged strats that stayed in colonial(or at least more colonial strats since SR is a colonial card), so ES didn't change it.

Then there are many more changes that are more obvious like the age up increase.

Quote:

er... no.

Besteiros was an under-used, very few port player actuall used them.

you can ask walker, or check swinger's games, or asgard's games.

if port's fortress was to be nerfed for them to fight more in colonial, remove 5 goon shipment and 8 caasadore shipment will do it.

Quote:

I m sorry bout this makes even less sense then the first one.

boosting colonial for the best civ with the best fortress to "nerf" fortress!!?

how about, just nerf fortress?

The title of this thread trumps all posts here.... its speculation.

I HIGHLY doubt Silk Road was the reason for ES to add 400 wood cost to Besteiros. Altough there had to be a reason with the introduction of TWC.

The best we can do...is well...speculate. Which makes Ultimitsu's "ignorant" comments even more laughable, considering its all speculation in the first place.

update

now more tests with walker.

otto can get 4th shipment well before 6:00, i got it on 5:18, when walker tried, he got it at 5:58 with a slightly diferent BO.

port can get their 3rd shipment by 6:00 for sure, i got it at 5:57

13 vil colonial is 4:07, 910 gold arrives at 4:47, take 40 second to gather, we can still make it to fortress at 6:00 - which we failed to do due to lag that made everything a little slowers, especially villager micro.

when i got to fortress at 6:18, i clicked besteiros at 7:24, proving that if i had better connection, i can get besteiros inside 1 minute of arrving fortress.

Yea and last time I checked there are some pretty insanely OP team strats, the Iro Toma sling rush for example, or some civ combinations. Something tells me that age4 xbows wouldn't be that big of a threat, especially when both players are concentrating all they've got on it. I could have a TC of theirs down by then. I don't think a few gaurd Xbows will do much.

It may work in some situations, especially those that involve it being a suprise, but overall I wouldn't be afraid of it.

What has lag to do with fortress time? I hope you didnt have so much lag that it became unplayable when FF'ing, because then i dont want to know how you play during a battle.

But just a bit lag shouldnt increase your fortress time, especially if connection speed is the problem.

lag makes every micro is bit less responsive, wastes a bit of time on every click.

the lag between me and walker is over 450ms.

without lag i get sub 4 minute colonial with ottoman every time, during my tests with walker i have not been able to get it down to 4:00, its always 4:7~4:10, there isnt even much villager micro in age1.

okay, but those times also happen in a normal MP game between 4 players.

Brtn has a very good point. If your logic is that Besteiros was nerfed due to an Otto-Port team strat...then surely a French-Iro combo is a better choice?

What about Sioux-Iro? Cetan + Tommy.

Or what about Oto+Spain? Abus + Rods is a rediculous combination.

ub3r why are you so dense?

It is no speculation that ES nerfed besteiros becasue they found a besteiros rush that was too powerful, can you please get that through your head?

No one here is arguing if besteiros are the best units in the game, whether or not more powerful team combo or strats exist is irrelevent to the discussion of WHAT WAS this fast rush.

so stop polluting this thread with worthless comment of "X+Y > this rush"

About viablity of a besteiros rush in general

a besteiros rush is essentially an FF rush, it is unfair to compare it to normal faster rushes.

the advantage of besteiros rush is obviously not its speed, but its lasting power, itself delivers a good number of units that superior compared to most age2 units, being in age3 allows port to continue its game with mighty age3 shipments, 1300 gold, 1300food, ronins, mamelukes, etc.

Comparing besteiros to other possiblities

someone said abus + rods > besteiros rush. well not if engagement doesnt start until 6:30~ish, when besteiros come out (without nerf).

at 6:30 otto would have about 8~10 abus guns, spanish would have about 20~ish rods, wheres the allied otto would have 15~20 jans, and port got their 22 besteiros.

considering 2 besteiros > 1 abus, 1 jan > 1 rod, and that 1 besteiros on 1 rod > 1 abus on 2 jans, i'd say the game is heavily in favor of the ottoman+port team.

Is this rush still viable with the nerf in TWC

Since besteiros requires one to be in 3rd age, and the 3rd age cant be reached much faster than 6:00 as port, a 7:00~ish besteiros rush is good as it can get in TWC.

in extra 30 seconds, otto ally get extra 5 jans, opponent would get extra 3~5 abus guns, extra 5 or so rods. the odds is not as overwhelming, but still viable.

Ulti if you're tired of how dense ub3r is in not agreeing with you, why not post a rec of you owning some rod+abus spammers or heck any decent team on the HG site? With respect this time, you aren't going to convince anyone that this strat is worth a damn doing what you're doing now.

Quote:

Why cant you get in your head that you dont know why ES did things. Maybe they thought guard units in fortress is very good so they made it more expensive.

Quote:

Of course that is not 'polluting'. You say they nerved it because it used to be a too strong rush. If it is easily counterable then it is not a too strong rush so maybe this wasnt the reason they nerved it.

Quote:

It is unfair to call it a rush, it is a FF.

Quote:

Quote:

Add the time it takes to research besteiros, then i doubt that 400 wood will make a difference of more then a minute

Quote:

And what if the spanish and otto opponents FF too?

If this strat is so good? Can you do it on eso and post a recording? Then we can see how it works

Quoted from adam:

Quoted from furby:

I dont have to, anyone who doesnt think besteiros are worth anything dont need to read this.

let me say it again, for the Xth time:

"This is a discussion of what was the fast besteiros rush ES was talking about, and how to do it now in TWC as ES indicated still possible."

GOT IT?

Quoted from furby:

Why cant you get in your head that ES_SANDYMAN TOLD US IT WAS NERF DUE TO AN UNSTOPPABLE BESTEIROS RUSH AMONGST TEST PLAYERS?????

Quote:

like i said, my slow time was largely due to lag, without lags i think i can it in 7:00.

400 wood means entirely different BO. if it was 2000 wood i wont need the 1300 wood, i could do with 910 wood, but i dont expect you to understand.

besteiros only take 5 seconds to reseach, like all church mercs.

Quote:

then you have 25 jans + 22 besteiros at his door step at 7:00 (before nerf) taking down his TC in 30 seconds.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 01-15-2007 @ 01:27 PM).]

How about this one:

If you believe everything ES tells you, good luck searching the secret op dutch strat

[This message has been edited by schildpad (edited 01-15-2007 @ 01:18 PM).]

Furby has a point... I actually know some who still believe there was such an OP strat. Either way, 5.2 speed Halbs + Skirms is pretty OP

Quote:

Well, they said the reason was a powerful Besteiro rush. I find it hard to believe still... but its quite obvious that, if ES nerfed Besteiros, its either 1) Because they thought a Besteiro based Strat was OP or 2) The changed had no sense behind it. You can elaborate the second one from a mistake in a file which made everyone to believe it was there for a reason or Sandy lost a bet.

Quote:

I'll be off this week and I'm not sure if ulti has the right cards online. I'd like to try that when I come back though...