impressive. though after looking at your ESO name i think your opponents could probably guess what strat your going for. hehe

I love the name. The layout is really good as well

So...

How do you counter an Ottoman rush?

didnt you hear him he said that ur in for tround 8 mins and beats anything before 10 min, also you have walls

6 banks + 30 vills won't outboom 3 TCs. If I saw you doing this strat as any civ, I would either:

Destroy your walls with falconets while killing your culverins with my culverins

OR

Get up 3 TCs instantly + docks if a water map and have max vills against your 30-40 + banks. 50 vills + 6 banks = 76 vills about. 99 vills = 99 vills. Not to mention I'll have all the gold piles and hunting and wood.

To my knowledge, playing the coffee trade still slows down your skirms by 10%. Doesn't this warrant the use of advanced arsenal?

Kind of a funny strat but cool either way. It is map dependant and Ive found good players will make very good use of map control to that degree. I do however like the 20 vill colonial. Against a FF loozer it may actually make them think O' Shit maybe I should rush.

Your age 2 description is pretty short. The amount of time you take to build a market is scary also. You mention against boom civs blah blah. Please dont ever turtle against boom civs wtf is the point.

Quote:

The walls will slow them down, the tower will slow them down more, then you have your 150g/150f minutemen pop out and a TC that does 135 dmg. This will make them run away for a minute, allowing you to rebuild your wall. They come back and now see 20 minutemen and a new wall to tear down. If they're good, they won't give up and will have grenadiers, but fortunately your minutemen do get a bonus vs. them. So with all that in their way, you should be alright until you get to fortress.

Quote:

If all they do is boom, then sure, a good FF/TC boom starts at about 20 vils at 8:00, 7 minutes later they have 62 vils. So you lose. But that's just not what I've encountered when doing this strat. Most opponents are concerned that whatever i'm brewing inside my walls will soon come out, so they build up their army as well. If you don't want to try this vs Brits/Ports, then I can understand that. But the rest of the civs are pretty much on equal or worse footing with you eco wise. Throw in the extra 50 pop in military and you go from equal to dangerous.

Quote:

A culverin army will beat a culv/falc army every time. As for the water, I play the 3 fluyt card, so you're gonna have a tough time getting control of that.

Quote:

Once Religious Freedom is played you have 13 cards left, so play whatever you want!

Quote:

Good point, I'll fill it in a bit.

I think I had a guy do this to me on Carolina not too long ago. I was Portugal and soon had 3 TCs which I used to take nearly the entire map. After that I just pumped 99 vils and got uber eco which beat him.

This will lose to Portugal, but I guess I can't complain because I'm not sure what can beat Portugal.

You might as well keep the +1 bank limit cards in your deck as well, along with the +15% gather rate card in Age 4.

The problem is that FU plantations will outperform your banks quite easily.

[This message has been edited by Zeusmeister (edited 03-09-2006 @ 05:57 PM).]

This is probably the best way for Dutch to counter Spanish FF though.

Awesome. Would you mind posting some recorded games or linking me to some? i'd love to see this in action.

Quote:

Sure,

Recorded Game

Disclaimer: My opponent didn't boom as hard as he should have, so don't think this is supposed to be proof that it works vs Ports.

The walls will slow them down, the tower will slow them down more, then you have your 150g/150f minutemen pop out and a TC that does 135 dmg. This will make them run away for a minute, allowing you to rebuild your wall. They come back and now see 20 minutemen and a new wall to tear down. If they're good, they won't give up and will have grenadiers, but fortunately your minutemen do get a bonus vs. them. So with all that in their way, you should be alright until you get to fortress. - Jaafit

Age II 5:50 -- 200G + 1 Tower
During age-up, put 11 vils on food, 9 on gold.
At this point you will know whether they are rushing. If and only if they are, send Colonial Militia and keep 400f/400g handy for the minutemen.
* Get the tower up - Jaafit

Again, I'll ask how this is supposed to stop an all out Ottoman assault. If I'm playing the Dutch with the Ottomans, that's what I'm doing period. I'm rushing you incessantly until you are dead.

I see glaring problems with this. Mainly that I will be sending twenty Jannies at you while you are in the process of aging up. I strongly doubt your ability to get your tower up in time. Are your walls up? I think having walls up at that point is possible.

However, if you do get your walls up, I'm gonna be through them in a heartbeat with my twenty Jannies. Where are you putting that tower? If it's out on the wall, I'm bypassing it and heading straight to your town center or your villagers, whichever is more vulnerable and tasty. Twenty Jan's will obliterate your militia, mitigate your ability to put up a barracks, or anything else as well. And by the time your TC has taken down the first twenty, I'm rolling in with 30 more. I'm taking your tower, and the rest of your town down too.

This strategy will absolutely not work against the Ottoman rush, or the Russians. You lose against the Russians because you have no chance of gaining control of the map. A Russian opponent will own just about everything on the map, while your stuck in your corner playing Sim City. He will swamp you in time, if he doesn't just end it quick and rush you.

I offer this simply because ideally I like the Dutch. However, there are gaping holes in their way's of warfare. To me, are completely inept at 1v1.

Merkinball,

Re-read the 3rd sentence (in the original post) about 5 times so you'll be sure to understand that this strat is a counter to a FF, not a rush.

How does someone "ideally" like something? Does that mean you like it but only when it's not what it is?

[This message has been edited by EmpireDoja (edited 03-10-2006 @ 02:02 PM).]

To Merkinball

i dont think this is supposed to be an anti rush BO. This is an anti FF BO. So of course you need to use mr. envoy to figure what he's doing.

I cant tell you how to beat an ottoman rush, unless it's an all janisary army, so you can just shoot them with skirmishers. But if he has abus guns you're kinda screwed.

This is a good Anti FF but the problem is, why rush you if you are making all of these walls and towers. Why not just boom your ass to the 5th age and get an army as soon as you are aging up.

FF isnt the ONLY strat spanish and French can do

I saw someone said 20 jans so i will make a short comment...

20 jans = 2000 food + 500 gold + 450 wood. I say you cant get that by 6:00, you wont get that across the map by 6:30

that makes you about 20 seconds away from the dutch clicking aging up. and you will have to deal with tower and wall.

after that you have seconds lot of MM to deal with + 150% TC fire.

after that dutch is in age3 with age3 skirms and you still stuck with age2 jans.

good work jaafit, 4 tower + 2 culverin is 1337

Nice work jaafit.

As common as spanish have become with their ff/rush, i think this is about the ideal BO dutch can do against that.

That early in the game, how do you know for certain what the other person is doing?

That is why an aggressive approach rules this game.

He tries to counter a FF, I just rush him, throw him off his game early.

"20 jans = 2000 food + 500 gold + 450 wood. I say you cant get that by 6:00, you wont get that across the map by 6:30" - ultimatesu

I'm pretty sure I can. Age up at 4. Send the 5 Jan card. Send in 500 food at age up. If you have an active explorer, you'll get gold. Have three on wood, three on gold, and you'll have my count. If needs be, send the 700 gold card before the food card depending on the map and what treasures you get.

I'll look more precisely this evening to see at what time I'm banging on your doorstep.

i was wondering, why 4 towers instead of fort? 4 un-upgraded towers will not hurt a strong age3 army with mercs. forts can also build units, which allows you not to have to build a rax, i understand that towers cover a larger area, but im not sure it really matters...

i suppose its all about where you place your fort or towers. i good opponent will just bypass an age3 army and before you know it, will have 3 tc's and map control, whiule you have 9 skirms and 2 culvs. i see a problem when you run out of food inside your base, and have to build mils with your deminishing wood.

your rec does not seem to be working. i want to see this in action becuase i like the concept, im unsure if it weill work against a clever german/french/brit/port player.

@ merkin, no one said this will stop a rush, maybe you should read the strat.

someone said that spain or france will go age 5. france will, not spain. spain are suckage in age 5, 1 factory and cheap melee units.

someone else said that they think its mathmaticly impossible to mass 20 jans by 6 minutes, either you are playing noobs or you are a noob who plays as otto. ottoman advance at around 3:30. they ship 3 vils in discover, then 4 when they age, colect 500 wood, build a rax, send 5 jans and build from rax. with free vils streaming to food and there early abundunce of wood, they have no need for houses or eco managment. 20 jan's is completely pluasable for a decent otto rush at 6 mins... maybe 23-5...

[This message has been edited by BloTo (edited 03-11-2006 @ 07:50 AM).]

imo, screw the janis and start worrying about the spanish. they usually come w/ 24 pikes and 10 lances plus highlanders by arund 10-11 min. aldo,they will have been trainin scrims, which will shoot up ur scrims. and a wall and a few towers aren't goin to be there for long if hes got 24 pikemen working on em. then when the walls r down the lances come and own everything on foot. so if this is supposed to be a strat to counter a ff, there needs to be a much greater empisis on military units.

A little OT, but does anyone know of a decent non civ-specific guide to FFing?

I just had a great game vs Golfo (1950) and whatd'ya know, the bank spank did the trick. I played it pretty well but made some mistakes, such as gathering too much wood in discovery, too much food in early-fortress, and not getting my market improvements til 23:00 :0

It's a good game to watch, as it looks for sure like Germany will win from his point of view. He had complete map control, 2 TCs going, and improved mercs. He ended up busting through my wall with his falcs, but underestimated what 5 towers can do to a uhlan/merc army.

Here's the game

[This message has been edited by jaafit (edited 03-12-2006 @ 03:16 AM).]

Yeah jaafit i watched both of them actually. The one vs. ports wasnt a great example because he never actually attacked your base. The german one was a gg but he still didnt attack as a lot of fast fortresses i've seen. Try to get a rec. game vs. a strong spanish ff. thats tough to beat nowadays and i want to see if you can defend it.

I'm gonna try the bank spank out myself but i'm not at lvl 50 yet with any of my dutch hc's, and i want to get a couple cards for it first.

it seems pretty effective though, you've inspired me to turtle.

Lol this wouldnt work at the times u state. You military is mainly shipped, and you forgot to build TP :P