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Topic Subject: Walling °Tips
posted 04-22-04 09:42 PM CT (US)   

As you know, Early Pallisade Walling (EPW) can turn a game around. This is a major aspect that many players totally ignore. I hope this guide will help those players understand why these VS are definetly not wasted. But I really can not think of anything on the subject, so I will open up to comments.

I started this because of this comment:

Quoted from Novelist:

Someone could start a topic about effective use of pallisade walls. :-) I don't think there is any use of villager-seconds even one-tenth as useful as hammering up a pallisade wall in a key place in their or your base. The strategy is to not consider extra places "key places", and to decide how many villagers to send forward (and lose their villager-second productivity as they walk across the map).

So please post below, and I will add to this. If you want your post to be within the guide, please also tell me where in the guide it shall be placed.

Quick Tips
  • Remember that you can delete walls at any time if you need to go through them. You can always rewall that one tile. This is one of the main reasons gates aren't as useful as they could be.
  • About using buildings as walls, especially houses. Houses have lots of HP, cost only wood, and are needed anyway. They also build fairly quickly. Military buildings are also great as walls as you can choose which side your units pop out on. You can also have your base fully surrounded with buildings and walls and still be sending out units this way.
  • Walling buildings happens mostly when your opponent goes forward and you beat them back. Bringing in vils to wall the forward military buildings (usually 1 or 2 ranges and a rax) can really cripple them early in Feudal.
  • Walls are also extremely effective for beating off Drushes. Pallisades correctly placed on your foragers and woodies will stop any militia.
  • Forcing enemy units to pass near your town center means you have to use your town center if they do. It's a minor point mostly for newbies, but it's still important.
  • Move the pallisade hotkey from "p" to something slightly more accessible if you plan on using them a lot. If you already are used to this and have no problems, then forget it. Mine is the "i" key, but used to be "q" when I used them more.
  • Walls are very helpful in protecting trade routes in post-Imp. This mostly applies to DM, though and doesn't mean walling the entire map off, just those sections that you can't cover with Castles and BTs. Walls can also help to stop raiding if placed well, but later in the game it's hard to find the micro time to lay them correctly. (All tips from here and up are from Gordon B)
  • Instead of building your first gold mine adjacent to the gold piles, build it one tile distant. Then two villagers can stand between the gold and the mine, and a couple palisade walls can protect them from melee units. If your opponent sends ranged units simply delete a wall segment to flee. (All from here and below are from Novelist)
  • If a builder might be attacked, have the builder first make palisade walls on three sides for protection.
  • Surrounding towers with palisade walls really helps during Feudal Age. This is especially efficient when trushing and you build a tower "behind" the opponent's patch of forest with his wood-gatherers; against the trees, this tower has only vulnerable side that needs palisade walls.
  • On Nomad, if you find a relic then partially build four palisade wall segments to make it more difficult for enemies to claim.
  • Build 2-3 consecutive palisade walls adjacent to forward military buildings. If your opponent tries to wall in your building, you can delete these to create an open place for your units to emerge.
  • Some maps (such as Arabia) have ideal places for your opponent to build forward military buildings: flat hilltops not far from your base. Put a few palisade wall segments here and there on such hilltops to prevent your opponent from making buildings there.
  • A trick invented by GPA_Great Benze is to ruin an opponent's trade cart income without setting off any alarm bells by sneaking a few villagers to the enemy market and surrounding it with palisade walls.
  • When drushing build a wall _between_ the opponent's camps/mines and resources, and then later return to try tofully enclose the opponent's camps/mines -- this keeps your forward villagers moving (i.e.--safer from swarms of opponent's villagers) and is maximally efficient at disrupting the opponent's economy.
  • When advancing to Feudal Age, build a palisade wall from your town center to either your gold/stone or the edge of the map; the idea is to keep enemy military who flush you from being able to run back and forth from your wood-gatherers to your gold-gatherers without walking much farther or suffering town center arrows. (Do similarly when you have two lumber camps at opposite sides of your base.)
  • To be more shocking than efficient, send a villager to the opponent's base almost immediately (works well on Black Forest or Highland, when people do so anyway) and wall up their boar. Alternately, on laggy games build an L-shaped "blocking wall" to safely lure your own boar without researching loom.
  • Your own land units never need to touch your docks. Protecting them with palisade walls is worth the villager-seconds on certain maps.
  • On Nomad, if one of your initial villagers happens upon an enemy docks then consider walling your villager in beside the dock and attacking it; this will safely destroy the dock before they reach Feudal Age, and your economic loss (one non-productive villager) is roughtly equivalent to their loss of the dock and it's use in the grush.
  • Don't forget to add that when using pools of water as a barrier that one needs to put 1-2 tiles of palisades on each side of the water between the water and trees, otherwise those bad guys will sneak through. Even experts forget to do that and everybody should look for that oversight. (Tony Sillars)
  • Walls can seem to buy you time, but you really only gain if the time it buys you is less than the time you spend gathering resources and building walls.
  • In general use walls to direct your enemy to the slaughter, i.e. to create choke points.
  • Where possible make your walls out of houses instead of creating a pallisade.
  • A bum's rush of villagers can pallasade in an advanced barracks, range, or stable. It only works when you're playing a crappy player, but hell, it sure is fun when it does work.
  • Finally, you don't see the best players throwing up a vast labyrinth of walls for a reason. (From here and up are from right reverend)
  • Single palisades dropped in a grid every 4 tiles in outlying areas around your base - prevents enemy from being able to do a castle drop while your attention is elsewhere. Houses are best for this job (i.e. this is the area where I would normally house), but palisades are cheaper, build quicker, and Huns don't get houses.
  • If you are a ranged civ (including Celts, Saracens etc), single palisades or walls in a grid/random array spaced every 2 or 3 tiles (i.e. 1 or 2 tiles between them) are a cunning defence against Paladins, Elite War Elephants and also rams and onagers. Those physically large units have trouble maneuvering in tight spaces and are slow turning corners, and will therefore move very slowly or ideally get themselves completely jammed amongst your palisades. Meanwhile you slaughter them with your ranged units. Many players will not appreciate the disastrous effect that sending their gold-costly power units through such a 'minefield' can have.
  • An obvious one: palisades or walls around towers, if you are tower rushing
  • Especially on a large map single palisades by or close to all the enemies' outlying resources will (1) give you some scouting function (especially if Byzantines) (2) irritate the enemy as they spoil his ideal TC placement, thus slowing his castle-age economy.
  • A few times on Land Nomad, the enemy has done the seriously irritating thing of building an early palisade wall between me and my boars. Having had that experience, I would say that being walled off from your boars in Dark Age does you more damage than any other kind of wall, even complete walls around your gold (by the time you need the gold, you will have a few pikes to take down the walls). This trick is most effective on Land Nomad where two opposing players may happen to build their starting TCs very close to each other.
  • Instead of walling off an enemy's gold, a mean trick if you can achieve it without your vil being detected on the minimap (e.g. if your colour is yellow or grey) is to wall around his Mining Camp some time after he has built it. It only takes 8 palisade walls to block it up and then his vils will be taking a very long walk to the TC or the next nearest mining camp, effectively cutting his gold income from that mine by something like 2/3. Assuming you are attacking elsewhere, many players will not notice that you have done this to them until it is far too late, since even a player who is good at multi-tasking tends not to look at his mining camps often, if at all.
  • In a very long (like 2 hour) team game, a goal for me would be to have one edge of the map for trading, completely walled off with fortified walls (positioned so that not even ranged units can touch the trade). All forests etc would have been cleared out of the way. The reason for doing this is that trade carts are very costly (including gold cost), and are very fragile. By this stage in the game I might well have 30-40 trade carts and 3-4 markets, so it is obviously worth spending some stone to protect all that; equally your teammate's trade is protected. (From here and up are from Intimatum)
  • Palisades are good against people who use siege extensively without microing enough. I mean, a short curtain of three segments in an important pass through messes their path finding AI real bad. Not to mention that it delays them if they have units on attack stance, and he’s not looking: the rams (and many other units) loose valuable time smashing the palisade. In that case, the palisade work as decoy for my own SOs. (toesmasher)

Note: I was looking through the search function, and I found this: (I never did any of the original, But did add to some of it from tips. I would like to see if we can add anything to this great article.) (Found at: http://aok.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/aokcgi/display.cgi?action=ct&f=3,32343,,all#0)

EFFECTIVE WALLING

By: EternalMartyr
PROBLEM

Most new players have an intrinsic fascination with walls. Rather than using them to their full advantage (both tactically and economically), some players choose to wrap their base with a thick layer (or layers) of walls. The effect of this? Admittedly, the defense can work, against players of weaker skill. The response to this may be that the walls will give a player warning of attack, but the expense of such a large amount of stone (not to mention the villagers required to build them, and the resources required to upgrade them) seem to make any such warning much too late - you have already damaged your own economy far more than the enemy could ever aspire to! Naturally, the advanced warning argument can be accomplished by building useful, strategic buildings in key locations, rather than squandering one's resources on layer after layer of walls.

SOLUTION

That being said, walls are still exceptionally useful, if used in moderation, in key locations, and for the right reasons. Before we discuss the uses of walls, let's have a look at what we will be talking about.


THE PALISADE WALL- Availability: Dark Age (all civilizations)
- Cost: 2W per section
- Hit Points: 250

THE STONE WALL
- Availability: Feudal Age (most civilizations)
- Cost: 5S per section
- Hit Points: 1800

THE FORTIFIED WALL
- Availability: Castle Age (many civilizations)
- Cost: 5S per section
- Hit Points: 3000

THE GATE
- Availability: Feudal Age (most civilizations)
- Cost: 30S per gate
- Hit Points: 2750

THE FORTIFIED GATE
- Availability: Castle Age (many civilizations)
- Cost: 30S per gate
- Hit Points: 4000

Note: Mayans have half cost (-50%) walls. This is very good when walling early.

USING WALLS FOR PROTECTION

Choke Points. The age old choke point is still excellent place for a wall. Walling a choke point is not "turtleing" -it is common sense. If you are (for whatever reason) playing on Black Forest, you'd be silly not to place a wall at the chokepoint. I'm not saying, of course, to wall and surround it with castles, towers, and bombard towers, because your opponent can simply go through the forest with siege onagers. Nevertheless, Black Forest screams for some choke point walling. Naturally, there are choke points on other maps, as well. On Continental, for instance, walls can be placed between your base and the main island. Is this the only means of access to your base? Of course not. Are you now secure from enemy attack? Of course not. But now the enemy must spend time getting through your walls, or go around the long way, triggering many warnings from your carefully placed houses, or active scouts. Even Arabia has a choke point or two between clumps of trees.

Funelling. When you are being rushed, it never hurts to lay down a quick wall to not only protect your villagers, but also to direct enemy traffic. Most people use this effectively: if you are being rushed, build a wall from your wood to your town center. Hopefully, this will also protect your gold miners. You are protected, and you direct enemy traffic through your town center fire if they wish to destroy your miners or choppers. Though "forcing enemy units to pass near your town center means you have to use your town center if they do." "Walls are also extremely effective for beating off Drushes. Pallisades correctly placed on your foragers and woodies will stop any militia." (Gordon B)

Using Terrain. Don't wall around forests. It never ceases to amaze me when players wall a forest in. Use the forest to your advantage. It saves both time and stone. This is not simply for forests, either. Use water, as well, and even gold or stone! Gold and stone are far more secure than any wall - they are indestructible and totally impassable, as are cliffs. When possible, wall so that you are on top of the cliff to get an attack bonus.

Gates By: Chewmen_ldr
Gates are only necessary if the walled choke point is a major passageway for your own/allied units. (i.e. Trade carts or a highland shallow.) "Remember that you can delete walls at any time if you need to go through them. You can always rewall that one tile. This is one of the main reasons gates aren't as useful as they could be." (Gordon B)

Building Blocks/Walls By: Chewmen_ldr
This is a very nice way to get what you need, plus extra Protection. "Houses have lots of HP, cost only wood, and are needed anyway. They also build fairly quickly. Military buildings are also great as walls as you can choose which side your units pop out on. You can also have your base fully surrounded with buildings and walls and still be sending out units this way." (Gordon B)
If you do use towers (castles will work too), then you may place it in between a wall. This will give you a little more protection, and a gate. To use as a gate, you can garrison some people inside and set the rally point to the other side so that when you ungarison them, some of them will end up on the other side. Very high micro though, and not very useful in the midst of battle. "Walling buildings happens mostly when your opponent goes forward and you beat them back. Bringing in vils to wall the forward military buildings (usually 1 or 2 ranges and a rax) can really cripple them early in Feudal."(Gordon B)

Palisade Walls By:Novelist
Instead of building your first gold mine adjacent to the gold piles, build it one tile distant. Then two villagers can stand between the gold and the mine, and a couple palisade walls can protect them from melee units. If your opponent sends ranged units simply delete a wall segment to flee.

If a builder might be attacked, have the builder first make palisade walls on three sides for protection.

Surrounding towers with palisade walls really helps during Feudal Age. This is especially efficient when trushing and you build a tower "behind" the opponent's patch of forest with his wood-gatherers; against the trees, this tower has only vulnerable side that needs palisade walls.

On Nomad, if you find a relic then partially build four palisade wall segments to make it more difficult for enemies to claim.

Build 2-3 consecutive palisade walls adjacent to forward military buildings. If your opponent tries to wall in your building, you can delete these to create an open place for your units to emerge.

Some maps (such as Arabia) have ideal places for your opponent to build forward military buildings: flat hilltops not far from your base. Put a few palisade wall segments here and there on such hilltops to prevent your opponent from making buildings there.

A trick invented by GPA_Great Benze is to ruin an opponent's trade cart income without setting off any alarm bells by sneaking a few villagers to the enemy market and surrounding it with palisade walls.

When drushing build a wall _between_ the opponent's camps/mines and resources, and then later return to try tofully enclose the opponent's camps/mines -- this keeps your forward villagers moving (i.e.--safer from swarms of opponent's villagers) and is maximally efficient at disrupting the opponent's economy.

When advancing to Feudal Age, build a palisade wall from your town center to either your gold/stone or the edge of the map; the idea is to keep enemy military who flush you from being able to run back and forth from your wood-gatherers to your gold-gatherers without walking much farther or suffering town center arrows. (Do similarly when you have two lumber camps at opposite sides of your base.)

To be more shocking than efficient, send a villager to the opponent's base almost immediately (works well on Black Forest or Highland, when people do so anyway) and wall up their boar. Alternately, on laggy games build an L-shaped "blocking wall" to safely lure your own boar without researching loom.

Your own land units never need to touch your docks. Protecting them with palisade walls is worth the villager-seconds on certain maps.

On Nomad, if one of your initial villagers happens upon an enemy docks then consider walling your villager in beside the dock and attacking it; this will safely destroy the dock before they reach Feudal Age, and your economic loss (one non-productive villager) is roughtly equivalent to their loss of the dock and it's use in the grush.

USING WALLS FOR OFFENSE

Divide and Conquer. Before attacking a pair of teammates, drive a small army between them and bring along some villagers. Build a wall in a strategic place to try to minimize the ability of one player getting to the other easily. You now have two options. You and your ally can both attack one player at the same time, from different sides, rendering him helpless. Alternatively, you and your ally can take each player one-on-one, knowing that your opponents cannot help each other. This tactic is also advantageous in the late Imperial Age when gold is scarce. A well-placed Fortified Wall can render trade nearly impossible, or at least very difficult, and result in little gold for your opponents.

Claim Conquered Territory. If you have fought an enemy off and now control their territory, be sure to keep it that way. If they have run to a particular place, wall after them to keep them from claiming it back. A simple idea, but forgotten often. If you thought the area was worth fighting over, then it is worth protecting!

Steal Resources. A particularly nasty tactic if timed right and executed stealthily. Nothing can shut down an opponent like seeing a wall around an important gold mine or stone mine. For a few stone (or wood), you can block an opponents access to thousands of gold! This is far better than most military attacks can offer, so take advantage of it.

Walling Buildings. This can also be a nasty tactic, but it's usefulness is debatable. You must place villagers outside an opponent's military building. The villagers are essentially at the mercy of the opponent's ignorance - hopefully they won't notice and slaughter your villager(s). The wall, of course, will be destroyed quickly, or, if not, military buildings aren't terribly expensive anyway. I personally don't find this to be of particular use, but it can have some strategic advantages early in the game. Obviously, this is not effective at all in the later parts of any game.

GENERAL NOTES ON WALLING

How to Wall a Choke Point. Choke points should be walled in a specific manner to take the most advantage of the space given. If the choke point is small, a regular straight wall will probably suffice (perhaps double if you are ambitious, but only on the smallest of segments!). Another good way of walling is to make a v-shape with the v opening away from your side of the choke point. This allows you to put towers/castles around the choke point if you are so inclined. Again, don't over do it. Remember that your enemy is not going to attack your there if there is another way to get to you. But, at the same time, you shouldn't make the choke point the easiest way to get there.

Gates. A new idea in Age of Kings, gates are an important aspect to walling, but very expensive. You essentially get four tiles of wall with a gate, all of which share the same Hit Points. Gates are more expensive per tile than a wall. This extra costs earns you the ability to walk through your wall, which is of some value. Gates should be placed in areas in which they will actually be used. Do not blindly place gates all over the place. Gates are a weakness in any defense - enemies can walk through them if they are open (although this is easy to protect against, it does happen from time to time), and they simply aren't as strong as a real wall, not to mention more costly than paying for four wall tiles. As for keeping gates locked, that depends on their location. The two things to consider are, will locking the gate stop your trade, and will unlocking the gate leave you vulnerable. If you don't want your troops to storm through the gate, move them.

Walling Discretion. Let me be perfectly clear about one thing: given the choice between a wall unit and a military unit, 99% of the time, go for a military unit. They are much better for defense - they can be moved to where they are needed, and they can inflict damage on your opponent. That having been said, one cannot completely ignore the occasional need for a wall. If you spend more than a few hundred stone on defensive walls, you may have gone wrong somewhere. The goal is not to turtle, the goal is to fight -but use walls so that you do so in your opponent's base, not yours.


|=)(=| ©hewmen_Ldr |=)(=|
=============================
Chewmen is 5 Years old!
Clan Chewmen - Where the Addiction Begins

[This message has been edited by Chewmen_ldr (edited 04-24-2004 @ 12:43 PM).]

Replies:
posted 04-22-04 10:04 PM CT (US)     1 / 21  
lol I know what Stevay'll say and I agree.
posted 04-22-04 10:07 PM CT (US)     2 / 21  
This is a pretty good overview on walling. Hopefully people will get some good tips from it.

Things I'd add:
-Remember that you can delete walls at any time if you need to go through them. You can always rewall that one tile. This is one of the main reasons gates aren't as useful as they could be.

-Add something about using buildings as walls, especially houses. Houses have lots of HP, cost only wood, and are needed anyway. They also build fairly quickly. Military buildings are also great as walls as you can choose which side your units pop out on. You can also have your base fully surrounded with buildings and walls and still be sending out units this way.

-Walling buildings happens mostly when your opponent goes forward and you beat them back. Bringing in vils to wall the forward military buildings (usually 1 or 2 ranges and a rax) can really cripple them early in Feudal.

-Walls are also extremely effective for beating off Drushes. Pallisades correctly placed on your foragers and woodies will stop any militia.

-You might want to point out in the "Funneling" section that forcing enemy units to pass near your town center means you have to use your town center if they do. It's a minor point mostly for newbies, but it's still important.

-Move the pallisade hotkey from "p" to something slightly more accessible if you plan on using them a lot. If you already are used to this and have no problems, then forget it. Mine is the "i" key, but used to be "q" when I used them more.

-Lastly, walls are very helpful in protecting trade routes in post-Imp. This mostly applies to DM, though and doesn't mean walling the entire map off, just those sections that you can't cover with Castles and BTs. Walls can also help to stop raiding if placed well, but later in the game it's hard to find the micro time to lay them correctly.

Well, that's my 2 cents.

Quote:

lol I know what Stevay'll say and I agree


From Stevay's "Flush: Revisited" thread:

"Palisade Walls are actually good; a Flusher will use them himself in order to wall up some chokepoints. They're fast to build, and they only cost two wood per section. However, stone Walls are also good, but don't turtle yourself in. Stone Walls are stronger, but they cost five stone per section, and take a little longer to build. Although Palisades may die to Scouts, Spears, Skirms, or Archers, Palisades still give you a fair warning of where the enemy units are, so you can move your Scouts/Spears/Skirms/Archers in place to take his units on."

[This message has been edited by Gordon B (edited 04-22-2004 @ 10:11 PM).]

posted 04-22-04 11:13 PM CT (US)     3 / 21  
Ok, I am done adding your comments. But one thing I don't understand is: Aren't Fortified walls researched in Castle age? And aren't gates affected by this? I think I should fix it.

|=)(=| ©hewmen_Ldr |=)(=|
=============================
Chewmen is 5 Years old!
Clan Chewmen - Where the Addiction Begins
posted 04-22-04 11:46 PM CT (US)     4 / 21  
Heh, I don't really need credit for all that stuff. You also might want to remove anything from the "tips" part that's repeated later on.

Quote:

Aren't Fortified walls researched in Castle age? And aren't gates affected by this?


Yes and yes. Most people don't research this upgrade, though. It's really not that useful.

Also, I read the thread you link to and there are some good comments that people make. You should include those as well (some of them say what I said, only more eloquently, so I vote for using their stuff). Someone addresses the gate thing, I think (at least that upgraded gates have 4000 hp).

[This message has been edited by Gordon B (edited 04-22-2004 @ 11:47 PM).]

posted 04-22-04 11:57 PM CT (US)     5 / 21  

Quote:

Heh, I don't really need credit for all that stuff.


You deserve it, I sure don't. And it keeps me out of trouble.

Quote:

You also might want to remove anything from the "tips" part that's repeated later on.


I'm going to use that section for finding "Quick Tips".

Quote:

Yes and yes. Most people don't research this upgrade, though. It's really not that useful.
Also, I read the thread you link to and there are some good comments that people make. You should include those as well (some of them say what I said, only more eloquently, so I vote for using their stuff). Someone addresses the gate thing, I think (at least that upgraded gates have 4000 hp).


Ok, I'll address the rest tomorrow, because I must sleep, to get up for school. Please still add whatever you can.

|=)(=| ©hewmen_Ldr |=)(=|
=============================
Chewmen is 5 Years old!
Clan Chewmen - Where the Addiction Begins
posted 04-23-04 01:24 AM CT (US)     6 / 21  
More about palisade wall use:

(a) Instead of building your first gold mine adjacent to the gold piles, build it one tile distant. Then two villagers can stand between the gold and the mine, and a couple palisade walls can protect them from melee units. If your opponent sends ranged units simply delete a wall segment to flee.

(b) If a builder might be attacked, have the builder first make palisade walls on three sides for protection.

(c) Surrounding towers with palisade walls really helps during Feudal Age. This is especially efficient when trushing and you build a tower "behind" the opponent's patch of forest with his wood-gatherers; against the trees, this tower has only vulnerable side that needs palisade walls.

(d) On Nomad, if you find a relic then partially build four palisade wall segments to make it more difficult for enemies to claim.

(e) Build 2-3 consecutive palisade walls adjacent to forward military buildings. If your opponent tries to wall in your building, you can delete these to create an open place for your units to emerge.

(f) Some maps (such as Arabia) have ideal places for your opponent to build forward military buildings: flat hilltops not far from your base. Put a few palisade wall segments here and there on such hilltops to prevent your opponent from making buildings there.

(g) A trick invented by GPA_Great Benze is to ruin an opponent's trade cart income without setting off any alarm bells by sneaking a few villagers to the enemy market and surrounding it with palisade walls.

(h) When drushing build a wall _between_ the opponent's camps/mines and resources, and then later return to try tofully enclose the opponent's camps/mines -- this keeps your forward villagers moving (i.e.--safer from swarms of opponent's villagers) and is maximally efficient at disrupting the opponent's economy.

(i) When advancing to Feudal Age, build a palisade wall from your town center to either your gold/stone or the edge of the map; the idea is to keep enemy military who flush you from being able to run back and forth from your wood-gatherers to your gold-gatherers without walking much farther or suffering town center arrows. (Do similarly when you have two lumber camps at opposite sides of your base.)

(j) To be more shocking than efficient, send a villager to the opponent's base almost immediately (works well on Black Forest or Highland, when people do so anyway) and wall up their boar. Alternately, on laggy games build an L-shaped "blocking wall" to safely lure your own boar without researching loom.

(k) Your own land units never need to touch your docks. Protecting them with palisade walls is worth the villager-seconds on certain maps.

(l) On Nomad, if one of your initial villagers happens upon an enemy docks then consider walling your villager in beside the dock and attacking it; this will safely destroy the dock before they reach Feudal Age, and your economic loss (one non-productive villager) is roughtly equivalent to their loss of the dock and it's use in the grush.


Now a Maggid, not a Novelist.
Still a long-winded friend of Clanless newbies.
posted 04-23-04 01:58 AM CT (US)     7 / 21  

Quote:

Walling buildings happens mostly when your opponent goes forward and you beat them back. Bringing in vils to wall the forward military buildings (usually 1 or 2 ranges and a rax) can really cripple them early in Feudal.

That is an expensive way to hold off an attack. Aside from the fact that it costs villseconds (and also vill lives) it is difficult against an opponant who has forces in the area. His skirms will be drumming ammo into your vills, and due to the unit AI villagers run away if they come under attack. It works pretty well if he isn't expecting it, though.

Quote:

Most new players have an intrinsic fascination with walls. Rather than using them to their full advantage (both tactically and economically), some players choose to wrap their base with a thick layer (or layers) of walls. The effect of this? Admittedly, the defense can work, against players of weaker skill. The response to this may be that the walls will give a player warning of attack, but the expense of such a large amount of stone (not to mention the villagers required to build them, and the resources required to upgrade them) seem to make any such warning much too late - you have already damaged your own economy far more than the enemy could ever aspire to! Naturally, the advanced warning argument can be accomplished by building useful, strategic buildings in key locations, rather than squandering one's resources on layer after layer of walls.

Late game walling can really block out raiding enemies, but the cost of the walls mean that a whole shell simply isn't feasible in feudal and castle.

Quote:

You can always rewall that one tile

Not if your enemy notices it first.

posted 04-23-04 02:03 AM CT (US)     8 / 21  
Owww a cool guild but it misses something - walling off enemy gold mines and stone in dark/fudal. Muahahahaha!

Quote:

If you have fought an enemy off and now control their territory, be sure to keep it that way. If they have run to a particular place, wall after them to keep them from claiming it back. A simple idea, but forgotten often. If you thought the area was worth fighting over, then it is worth protecting!


Y not just use a castle or a few BT, then build military buildings?

[This message has been edited by Nicholaswestlake (edited 04-23-2004 @ 02:09 AM).]

posted 04-23-04 02:31 AM CT (US)     9 / 21  
Novelist:
Those are some great little tricks. Some are downright sneaky! I particularly like the idea of walling in a vil attacking a dock.

Quoted from Lord_Fadawah:

That is an expensive way to hold off an attack. Aside from the fact that it costs villseconds (and also vill lives) it is difficult against an opponant who has forces in the area. His skirms will be drumming ammo into your vills, and due to the unit AI villagers run away if they come under attack. It works pretty well if he isn't expecting it, though.


Isn't that sort of obvious? The only time this works is when you trounce your opponent's forward in early Feudal. If they have no military in the area (and can only produce it from those buildings) and you have a small force of skirms and a spear or two, the 2 skirms (one for each range) can't do very much. I've seen this happen even to experts, but it's pretty rare. It's one of the reasons a forward is risky if your micro isn't very good.

Quoted from Lord_Fadawah:

Not if your enemy notices it first


Right, but say you've just hit Castle, your enemy is knocking on your pallisades, your stables are farther back, etc. You get a few knights together then delete a wall or two. Send out those knights and there's not much chance they'll be coming back in, is there? If you lose, yes, you're in trouble, but they would have knocked down your walls eventually. Isn't it better to have the element of surprise on your side?

Walling the hole back up isn't always necessary or a good idea. Once you're in Castle, walls don't do a whole lot against knights and siege anyway.

Quoted from Nicholaswestlake:

Owww a cool guild but it misses something - walling off enemy gold mines and stone in dark/fudal. Muahahahaha!


No, that's in there. It's just called "stealing resources."

Quoted from Nicholaswestlake:

Y not just use a castle or a few BT, then build military buildings?


Yeah, I definitely agree with that. A wall will not help you much against any sort of effort, but a bunch of military buildings might. Castles should probably be used more offensively than just claiming territory, but if you need some trebs (or a UU, if you're not Huns) or have no castle up yet (and want to research useful things like conscription or use it for your Imp building), then it doesn't hurt too badly if it's in a decent spot. Spamming castles just to take up space is a waste of stone, though.
posted 04-23-04 09:48 AM CT (US)     10 / 21  
Chewmen: don't forget to add that when using pools of water as a barrier that one needs to put 1-2 tiles of palisades on each side of the water between the water and trees, otherwise those bad guys will sneak through. Even experts forget to do that and everybody should look for that oversight.
posted 04-23-04 11:33 AM CT (US)     11 / 21  
The final word on walling:

The best use of a wall is for keeping people from violating the graves with them. That's why they put them around cemetaries, afterall.

That having been said (my rant on walls some points have been made but I'm nothing if not redundant):

Walls can seem to buy you time, but you really only gain if the time it buys you is less than the time you spend gathering resources and building walls.

In general use walls to direct your enemy to the slaughter, i.e. to create choke points.

Where possible make your walls out of houses instead of creating a pallisade.

A bum's rush of villagers can pallasade in an advanced barracks, range, or stable. It only works when you're playing a crappy player, but hell, it sure is fun when it does work.

Finally, you don't see the best players throwing up a vast labyrinth of walls for a reason.

posted 04-23-04 11:37 AM CT (US)     12 / 21  

Quote:

That is an expensive way to hold off an attack. Aside from the fact that it costs villseconds (and also vill lives) it is difficult against an opponant who has forces in the area. His skirms will be drumming ammo into your vills, and due to the unit AI villagers run away if they come under attack. It works pretty well if he isn't expecting it, though.

No comment.

[This message has been edited by Evil_Viking (edited 04-23-2004 @ 11:40 AM).]

posted 04-23-04 02:17 PM CT (US)     13 / 21  
Lunch Break... I'll get to the rest of the comments in 2 or so hours. Please still add whatever you think is missing.

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Chewmen is 5 Years old!
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[This message has been edited by Chewmen_ldr (edited 04-23-2004 @ 02:17 PM).]

posted 04-23-04 04:49 PM CT (US)     14 / 21  
One of the more popular maps in DM is team Oasis. Walling is great here, since you have single and reletively short strecth to wall off and defend. It's also the best for economy since you can build up the middle section with a completely secure eco if both sides hold. Trading too. I've seen that it can be a real pain to try and breach one of these defenses. And never play standard victory, it's way too easy to build a wonder and defend it.
posted 04-23-04 06:53 PM CT (US)     15 / 21  

Quote:

And never play standard victory, it's way too easy to build a wonder and defend it.

Treb rush?

posted 04-23-04 08:09 PM CT (US)     16 / 21  
I am done adding all comments and touching up the guide. If you would like your comment to be in the guide (If it's not), please tell me where in the guide you would like me to place it (new subjects are fine). Haven't seen swp in a while... So what do you guys think?

BTW.... How do you change a subject title? I need to change it to: Walling °Tips. Mostly because this is more about general walls then palisades.

Also... How do you make something off topic? (Not that I want to or anything).


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Chewmen is 5 Years old!
Clan Chewmen - Where the Addiction Begins
posted 04-23-04 08:49 PM CT (US)     17 / 21  

Quote:

How do you change a subject title?


You need to be a mod to do this.

Quote:

Also... How do you make something off topic? (Not that I want to or anything).


Same thing. (Mods have magical powers.)

Anyway, this looks pretty good. If there are no more comments in the next few days, perhaps you might want to send it to Aro as a University article. (If people start submitting things there it will become a lot more useful than it is now. Then questions could be referred there more easily. Checking the University is easier than searching, as there isn't any spam or misspelled/mislabelled topics.

Someone could even make this a series on defensive buildings. Follow up with a thread on tower usage (which will be much more contraversial), then perhaps a shorter one on castles. One of the problems people seem to have is how to use these buildings effectively, especially in terms of keeping people away from thinking of turtling as a viable strat. Unfortunately it's not so simple as to say "don't ever use any of these buildings" or "build as many as you can."

posted 04-24-04 08:36 AM CT (US)     18 / 21  
pallisades are good against ppl who use siege extensively without microing enough. i mean, a short courtain of three segments in an important passthrough messes their path finding AI real bad. not to mention that it delays them if they have units on attack stance, and he´s not looking: the rams (and many other units) loose valuable time smashing the pallisade. in that case, the pallisade work as decoy for my own SOs.
posted 04-24-04 12:57 PM CT (US)     19 / 21  

Quote:

pallisades are good against ppl who use siege extensively without microing enough. i mean, a short courtain of three segments in an important passthrough messes their path finding AI real bad. not to mention that it delays them if they have units on attack stance, and he´s not looking: the rams (and many other units) loose valuable time smashing the pallisade. in that case, the pallisade work as decoy for my own SOs.


I added your comment, only I fixed up some of the errors. If you want it to be within the guide part please tell me where you would like it (new topics are fine.)

Quote:

Walling °Tips


Looks like one of our great mods changed it!

Quote:

Anyway, this looks pretty good. If there are no more comments in the next few days, perhaps you might want to send it to Aro as a University article. (If people start submitting things there it will become a lot more useful than it is now. Then questions could be referred there more easily. Checking the University is easier than searching, as there isn't any spam or misspelled/mislabelled topics.


Sounds good, I've sent in my last few guides, yet still no reply... Hopefully this one will make it.

Quote:

Someone could even make this a series on defensive buildings. Follow up with a thread on tower usage (which will be much more contraversial), then perhaps a shorter one on castles. One of the problems people seem to have is how to use these buildings effectively, especially in terms of keeping people away from thinking of turtling as a viable strat. Unfortunately it's not so simple as to say "don't ever use any of these buildings" or "build as many as you can."


Yikes, that's alot of work you know. I'll try to start the Tower one soon, but I need to do chores first... Good idea though.

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Chewmen is 5 Years old!
Clan Chewmen - Where the Addiction Begins
posted 04-24-04 01:17 PM CT (US)     20 / 21  

Quote:

Sounds good, I've sent in my last few guides, yet still no reply... Hopefully this one will make it.


Aro could also be too busy to read through all the things which have been submitted. Some of us in school may be approaching finals (ugh).

Quote:

Yikes, that's alot of work you know.

Yeah, I was proposing that as a more general "in the next few months" type of thing. I didn't mean anyone specifically should do it now, just that maybe some folks (myself included) could think about the subject when observing or playing games, as well as if someone stumbles on something that has already been written.

Quote:

I'll try to start the Tower one soon, but I need to do chores first... Good idea though.


If you ARE going to do it (you don't have to unless you've got a lot of spare time), try to look for the most recent post about towers as a starting point. Also, Stevay mentions them in the "Flush: Revisited" thread. His take is rather negative and well put, so you could include that for an "against towers" thing
posted 04-25-04 02:05 PM CT (US)     21 / 21  

Quote:

Aro could also be too busy to read through all the things which have been submitted. Some of us in school may be approaching finals (ugh).


Yep, the dreaded finals... I'm especially worried about my L.A. reading comprehension one.

Quote:

Yeah, I was proposing that as a more general "in the next few months" type of thing. I didn't mean anyone specifically should do it now, just that maybe some folks (myself included) could think about the subject when observing or playing games, as well as if someone stumbles on something that has already been written.


Sorry, I can never wait that long. If I don't do it now, It probably will never happen.

Quote:

If you ARE going to do it (you don't have to unless you've got a lot of spare time), try to look for the most recent post about towers as a starting point. Also, Stevay mentions them in the "Flush: Revisited" thread. His take is rather negative and well put, so you could include that for an "against towers" thing


I'm looking for one, yet there really is nothing.

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=============================
Chewmen is 5 Years old!
Clan Chewmen - Where the Addiction Begins
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