This looks great Sam! I am looking forward to seeing more. I really like the map design. It looks, as you said, very minimalistic, which is nice for a truly open world B&D, but it still has very beautifully designed landmarks that can be admired while playing. I especially like the gold mine immersed in the pile of treasure under the Hun Wonder: a clever way of giving the background graphics more life as a part of the actual gameplay.

I would like to make B&D scenarios like this, but as you saw on my DTS entry, I still need a lot more practice with AI scripting. :P

Open world B n D, I love it. I've been getting really into playing the game of aoe online, and I feel like there a lot of elements of the actual game itself (collecting resources and researching technologies making buildings and units etc) that are underused in scenario design.

Map looks pretty epic, I definitely gotta start taking a page out of your book. Looks like you used just right amount of Gaia and terrain blending. 10/10 in the looks Dept. If you're going for realism, you nailed it.

I'll def play test when the time comes.

Looks very interesting Sam! Making a BnD is something really new here. Best of luck!

I like the screens of the shrine and the tombs really much. Thumbs up!
Are they just eyecandy or will we find hidden treasures there?

Making a BnD is something really new here. Best of luck!

No it's not. You just don't know where to dig.

Looks interesting, Sam. It's good to see more B&D popping up here.

Here's a tip for these kind of scenario: remember that forest terrain trees and stragglers act differently when cut down and don't make the terrain excessively bumpy. These kinds of things really affect building placement.

I'll make sure to check it out when it's released.

the new map looks very nice HockeySam18, i especially like the mix of the ships in the "A lakeside tomb" screen and the rotated bridge idea in the "Cascading waters" screen !

Yes the bridge is a nice touch.

Thanks for all of the positive, encouraging comments, as well as the tips - they are all much appreciated

Quoted from Darth Sarek:

It looks, as you said, very minimalistic, which is nice for a truly open world B&D, but it still has very beautifully designed landmarks that can be admired while playing. I especially like the gold mine immersed in the pile of treasure under the Hun Wonder: a clever way of giving the background graphics more life as a part of the actual gameplay.

This is exactly what I was aiming for, so it's nice to see that I'm at least partially succeeding so far. It's often been my strategy to lay out the map first, doing some preliminary design to establish a baseline standard, and then to gradually improve upon it, adding new details and finally inserting small touches (such as the landmarks in some of the screenshots) that add a unique feel to the map. The end result is that you have something that seems organic and realistic, just like our actual world, which contains numerous breathtaking spectacles but isn't entirely comprised of such.

I would like to make B&D scenarios like this, but as you saw on my DTS entry, I still need a lot more practice with AI scripting. :P

This utility should at least help you in getting started. However, eventually you'll want to expand beyond generated AIs and begin to add your own personal touches to a higher degree. It's often invaluable to study the composition of existing AIs (particularly the more efficient ones) and make it an exercise of deducing the role and purpose of individual lines. The CPSB (downloadable at AoKH, but also included on your AoE2 installation) is also helpful here. Just take it one step at a time

Quoted from BIHSting:

I've been getting really into playing the game of aoe online, and I feel like there a lot of elements of the actual game itself (collecting resources and researching technologies making buildings and units etc) that are underused in scenario design.

Definitely! A couple months ago, I was having a discussion with some of my teammates over at SWS, and we were all remarking at how relatively little innovation has been done in the design of B&D scenarios when compared to FFs and RPGs. The latter two genres have simply seen so much more focus at AoKH over the years than the former has. My goal with this project is not just to provide the player with interesting and varied objectives, choices, and paths to victory, but also to explore largely uncharted waters in terms of the B&D gameplay genre itself.

Quoted from jernside:

I like the screens of the shrine and the tombs really much. Thumbs up!
Are they just eyecandy or will we find hidden treasures there?

Thanks, jernside! I've tried to make them vary in function, actually. Aside from spicing up the aesthetic of the map, they'll have an extra dimension - the area with the Hun wonder, for example is a rare occurrence of gold, which is fairly scarce in this map and therefore precious. Approaching other such landmarks might yield a discovery about the nature of the region, or perhaps a piece of hidden technology - I haven't entirely decided yet.

Quoted from Mithril Knight:

Here's a tip for these kind of scenario: remember that forest terrain trees and stragglers act differently when cut down and don't make the terrain excessively bumpy. These kinds of things really affect building placement.

This actually doesn't concern me way too much - Town Centers are the only building whose placement ability is affected by elevation, and in this scenario the player is unable to build new ones in addition to what they receive at the start of the B&D (although it is possible during the course of the gameplay to capture more). Furthermore, the map is so open that I'd be quite shocked if trees made building placement an issue, despite my having often placed pines through the terrain tool rather than as gaia objects.

Quoted from gag2000:

the new map looks very nice HockeySam18, i especially like the mix of the ships in the "A lakeside tomb" screen and the rotated bridge idea in the "Cascading waters" screen !

Thanks, gag2000! I'm particularly pleased with the way that those turned out. I must give credit where it is due, though - the shipwreck trick was inspired by a somewhat similar trick that Matt came up with for his PTC entry, and the sideways bridge trick was first used in a similar form by aMa and jernside in a couple of their scenarios, I believe.


One thing I've always found interesting about the process of scenario design is how similar innovative processes often are to those of the academic world. Person A makes a discovery and shares it with their community, and Person B might take that idea in a somewhat (or even entirely) different direction, leading to a wide variation of discoveries. You'd chuckle if you knew the context of the "Dare you enter?" screenshot, which is rooted in an ongoing iterative process of alternating discoveries by Matt, Julius, and myself that has lasted several months now

[This message has been edited by HockeySam18 (edited 05-15-2016 @ 09:56 AM).]

No it's not. You just don't know where to dig.

I didn't mean to say "really" new, but it is just that I have not seen a lot of popular designers designing BnD here recently. But I have also not been here for long.

That hidden shrine... is that modded or just really clever off grid placement? Either way, it's awesome!

As tempted as I was to make this a modded project, I realized that doing so would cause me to get excessively bogged down in minutiae, particularly given my complete and utter lack of skill in that department. The silver lining here, however, is that, thanks to the UserPatch, you can expect a few nifty tricks here and there that will add some of the increased depth that modding might otherwise have done.

That @Dev.

it look great uh how about The merchants?.

Quoted from Devestator:

That hidden shrine... is that modded or just really clever off grid placement? Either way, it's awesome!

Thanks, Dev! It's actually the latter - the "shrine" is a Middle Eastern monastery surrounded by mountains. You probably also noticed a couple ruins objects (I love those lion statues) at the base of a mountain, as well as a bridge middle topped by a damaged East Asian stone wall. I then layered it all with various objects to give it an overgrown look and cover up any bits that might ruin the effect.

Interestingly enough, everything in that screenshot is technically on the grid save for a couple objects near the entrance (bridge middle). The rest of it was placed with the 3rd new placement mode in the latest version of the UserPatch, which allows stacking and ignoring terrain restrictions while keeping the objects on the grid.

Quoted from D4Ra4Aracks111:

it look great uh how about The merchants?

The Merchant is a collaborative project within SWS, meaning that we design it collectively as a team and pass the file around to each other. We're still working on it, but I've had a few iotas of free time over the past couple months and decided to start up a personal project in the meanwhile, hence this

ok just saying, if you want test trigger in offline and not have time to online maybe this trick would be useful.
http://aok.heavengames.com/blacksmith/showfile.php?fileid=12627

note only work without UP 1.4

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean. For what purpose would this trick be used, and how would it be helpful?

This scenario is also designed using the latest version of the UserPatch, which means it is probably incompatible with that trick as per your file description.

I mean when you test other player trigger, I ever use it from your Galderton Hill.

You wouldn't happen to be looking for any voiceover work on this, would you?

The offer is much appreciated, and I must say I'm quite intrigued, Gen_Rhys_Dallows. That voice acting is of excellent quality! Do you mind if I contact you when the scenario is nearing completion and I have a better idea of/have written the spoken dialogues that I have in mind?

[This message has been edited by HockeySam18 (edited 05-17-2016 @ 01:42 PM).]

That's fine, sure.

Perfect dirt and grass mixing. Wow. Far better than anything I could pull off.

Best of luck with this, Sam.

That's quite a compliment coming from you, my friend. Much appreciated

[This message has been edited by HockeySam18 (edited 05-18-2016 @ 01:01 PM).]

Your map design definitely needs more broken carts and flower patches. Oh, and why you're at it, throw in some random piles of gold mines, forage bushes and bamboo chunks, just to give it some real character.

Why even bother with those? Everybody knows that an indiscriminate spam of dirt paths and flowers is the key to achieving a 5.0 rating in map design.

I must say I'm disappointed that nobody decided to chime in on our facetious banter


Things are coming along pretty nicely. The playable portion of the scenario is more-or-less entirely designed and triggered, and at this point I'm focusing on the polishing side of things - running some tests of the gameplay and implementing music, sound effects, etc. The majority of the gameplay is driven by the AIs, while most of the triggers are devoted to objectives, smaller touches to spice things up without distracting the player from the task at hand, and a larger degree of difficulty dynamism than I've ever implemented before in a scenario. Standard, Moderate, and Hard really are turning into three very different games!

Here's another screenshot to go along with the update:

An ancient bridge

That's a nice trick (at the bridge). Though I would recommend you to hide the upper edges (they look weird by default) with maybe some bushes or anyother discrete object.
PS: What happened with your project lepanto? The teaser was looking pretty good. (I've been out for a long time )

[This message has been edited by rewaider (edited 06-09-2016 @ 12:10 PM).]

Why the damaged walls? Full walls would look better I think.

I still am not loving that bridge trick, though I have to say that one is better done than most. I'm wondering if there is some sort of beta or hidden object that is only a shadow that can be unlocked to shade under the bridge.

I initially tried full walls, but it looked odd because they were uncharacteristically high for the bank of a bridge. The damaged walls also helped with the worn-down feel that I was looking for.

Quoted from Matt:

I'm wondering if there is some sort of beta or hidden object that is only a shadow that can be unlocked to shade under the bridge.

I'm heavily considering looking into that, as it would go a long way if there were. It's a shame, because the lack of proper shadowing really is the one downside to that trick

Quoted from Rewaider:

Though I would recommend you to hide the upper edges (they look weird by default)

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean. Are you referring to the bridge rail forming a divider running along the center of the bridge?

PS: What happened with your project lepanto? The teaser was looking pretty good.

Long story short, it had too many fundamental flaws from my noob days 4-5 years ago that were too deep to amend without remaking the map from scratch. About a year and a half ago I played through the teaser and realized that the design/presentation was largely mediocre and the gameplay wasn't very fun at all (I actually cringed at what I apparently had once thought were prudent design decisions).

It was a necessary part of a greater learning experience, but not a product that I would, with my current standards in mind, feel comfortable releasing to the public. Some of the better (newer) map design bits were more-or-less recycled into my Galderton Hill RP map with some major edits, though.

Are you referring to the bridge rail forming a divider running along the center of the bridge?

No, I was referring to the upper left cornered edge of the bridge (with the walls above it).

Long story short, it had too many fundamental flaws from my noob days 4-5 years ago that were too deep to amend without remaking the map from scratch. About a year and a half ago I played through the teaser and realized that the design/presentation was largely mediocre and the gameplay wasn't very fun at all (I actually cringed at what I apparently had once thought were prudent design decisions).

Oh, I get it. I have exactly the same feelings (or worse) about my "country of hinnegard" 'series', specially the 2 first parts... It's an enormous cringey mess.

[This message has been edited by rewaider (edited 06-09-2016 @ 02:42 PM).]

Oh, where the base of the wall pieces meet the bridge. Even if there's a bit of contrast, the similarity of the material in each is such that I really don't mind that at all, and any attempt to somehow cover it up would just look shoddy.

Oh, where the base of the wall pieces meet the bridge

No. I meant where the bridge meets the land, at the upper left side. The same way that you covered the other sides with bushes and rocks.

Ah, now I see what you mean.

I remember talking about this with you what seems like an eternity ago. Good to see a public thread - and screenshots!

Now, with everyone having pointed out the good things already, let me give you some criticism.

And that is related to the stacking of buildings:
In the "An abandoned village" screenshot, the monastery and the town center look weird, placed in a way that does not seem possible by any spatial sense. The town center roof is shown "above" the monastery's, while it should not be, in the upper parts... it just looks slightly off, but annoyingly so.
And on the "Restless horsemen" one, the stable and blacksmith have a little weird lighting.

Graphical issues aside, I personally dislike building stacking in B&Ds for the most part, because it's in the nature of B&D to be able to rebuild things you lose (unless they are special, unique things), which is obviously impossible with stacked buildings.

Valid, but nothing precludes you from rebuilding them right next to where they previously stood.

I'll see what I can do about the issues you mentioned in particular

They're non-issues from what I see I think they look great. I'd much rather take the advantage of building it in a more strategic location anyway then on the exact same spot.

Thanks, D_R. My line of thought regarding building combinations (and object combinations in general) has always been that minute graphical issues such as lighting inconsistencies are far outweighed by the overall effect of a good building combination. The vanilla editor isn't particularly infinite in terms of the array of design choices available, so it's important to be prudent with regard to the limits that you set on yourself.