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Topic Subject: Tactics for raiding
posted 23 October 2003 12:45 PM EDT (US)   
This is in response to all other posts on raiding, I don't think they're in-depth enough. "raid raid raid", "just spam RC"or "make 2 groups of RC/hipps/whatever and raid" aren't going to help anyone. Therefore I decided to describe some tactics I've been using to increase the effectivity of raiding.

I’m just gonna tell you some raiding tactics and I’m not gonna explain about all the other things that are important when raiding. You all know you have to scout well when you’re raiding so there’s no need for me to go on about that. Here’s a short summary though of things you shouldn’t forget while raiding:

-manage economy, keep creating villagers, keep checking for idle villagers
-keep creating military, build some extra military buildings as you econ is expanding
-get economic and military upgrades
-scout, set military gather points, divide your military in several groups

So I assume you have a decent economy and 1 or more groups of RC/hippikons/turmas/etc so now you have to raid. Here’s what you can do.

Raiding 2 sites at the same time

The idea is simple and probably the most obvious thing to do with 2 groups. Just have 2 groups of cavalry attack 2 different sites (for example his woodies and goldies), but be aware, there’s 1 thing you should keep in mind. Your raid will only be most effective with the right coordination. If there's 4 or more seconds difference between both attacks your opponent will have enough time to react so you must try to attack on 2 spots at the same time. By attacking simultaneously your opponent will have to react to 2 different attacks, when he is not even attacking yet himself. When you control 2 different groups you have to switch between them all the time. That means you shouldn't be focused on one group more than a couple of seconds. This way you will achieve ideal control of 2 (or more) groups at the same time and will it be easier to attack on 2 places at the same time. If one group approaches the spot faster than the other you have to delay them to synchronize both attacks. It requires a little micro from you but you force your opponent to micro too. Plus he’s the one risking to lose villagers, not you. If he’s not paying attention he might even notice one of the attacks too late and you’d be able to kill a whole lot of villagers.

Raiding 1 gold mine with 2 groups

If you attack a mining site you can expect it to be well defended the next time you want to attack it. Even though your opponent should not use his troops to guard his villagers all the time instead of attacking you still see it happen very often. Hitting him on a different place is an option, but if you want to attack that gold mine anyway you can sometimes try to fool him. You need only 1 group initially, but you need a 2nd group to be created soon and collected somewhere not far from his gold mine. What you do is attack the gold mine and retreat when his defence army arrives. Now you must fake you want to attack on a different place with your group so there must be another weak spot nearby (wood cutters, hunters, another gold mine). If your opponent does what you want him to do he will have his defence squad follow your initial group to make sure it doesn’t strike succesfully and he will forget about his gold miners. Now have the second raiding party attack them and hopefully kill some vills.

Raiding 1 gold mine with 2 groups at the same time

If the previous tactic doesn’t work because he keeps his defence squad near his gold miners and you’re determined to attack that spot instead of hitting somewhere else then you still have an option. So far I've never seen anyone else do this but I have found it very succesful. This tactic is very hard to execute well because it requires a lot of micro but it can be extremely annoying to your opponent. Have 2 groups of cavalry on 2 different sides of an enemy gold mine. Approach the mine with one group and retreat before the enemy force is able to deal damage to your group. His army will follow you a little bit when you run away, but he won’t follow you all the way not giving you a chance to attack them. However, there’s always 2 or 3 seconds his miners are left alone and if you’re fast it’s indeed possible to make use of it. Put your second group between his vills and his army and attack the vills so they will run away from his army. When his army is back to defend do the same with the first group. You can repeat this a couple of times, but you can also surprise him by having a third group attack somewhere else. Like I said you need to be able to micro fast and accurate but it’s the most annoying thing that can happen to an aom player, seeing his vills being harrassed while they are well protected. If you’re not able to kill any vills you’re garanteed he has a hard time putting his vills back to work all the time. I’ve also done this tactic with 3 groups on one gold mine and it was a mess for both of us, but his vills were in the middle of it while my vills were somewhere else gathering resources in peace.

Attacking with more than 2 groups

Many people don’t have more than 2 groups so raiding with more groups will give you a huge advantage, particularly against people who are somewhat defensive (many are). They have 2 groups for raiding but if you send one group of yours to their base they will send back one of theirs with you and keep it close to your group. If you send your second group to the other side of his base he will even send back his second group to watch yours. Now if you have a 3rd group you can attack him wherever he has villagers while both of his groups are somewhere else. Even if your opponent isn’t that defensive you will always have one group more than him so there’s always an unprotected spot where you can strike. Apart from microing several groups this tactic comes along with an extra difficulty, it’s hard to find any more places to attack as you have more groups. If you can’t think of enough places to hit you can attack his buildings as well with one or two of your groups. It may not be hurting his economy but anything is fine as long as you draw his attention. Most of the times he won’t ignore it and send forces to defend. All you need is one more group to hit his villagers while his other groups have been distracted.

There's a couple other tactics and many variations but they all have in common being an attempt to hit the opponent's economy on an unexpected place. Whatever you do, make sure your military are doing something all the time, preferably attacking. Doing one of these tactics once or twice during a game won't win you a game. You must do them all the time in order to be succesful. If you still lose your opponent is either a better raider or you forgot about one of the things I mentioned in the beginning of this post (economy etc).

I hope you find this information useful and I also hope at least a few people learned something new. Let me know what you think or add some more tactics or discuss

btw when i talk about a gold mine, it could also be a lumbersite or hunting party.


Member of NoFx
ESO: NoFx__Cymophane from now on
My website: www.cymophane.tk with Odin recordings and some more
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Replies:
posted 23 October 2003 01:01 PM EDT (US)     1 / 26  
I always raid with 9 groups, with 1 RC in each group, (since there are 9 numbers you can hothey). Now thats one heck of a confused enemy, but it require some fast finger work. Guess most of you have alot to learn.
posted 23 October 2003 01:22 PM EDT (US)     2 / 26  
Very good post, I can actually use some of it, though it really needs a lot of microing. I'll try to do my best

The Wait Is Over

DoJo Clan Site
posted 23 October 2003 02:18 PM EDT (US)     3 / 26  
Cympophane

Nice post, its always refreshing to see helpful posts in the midst of the flood of balance issue posts.

My question is actually off topic. I use Odin almost exclusively, i checked your website and tried your build order.

I'm convinced, and i am starting to use it now instead of my normal build style (i dont use concrete bo's)

My question is, when put the second round of 4 villagers on food i end up with like 500+ food by the time i advance (sometimes 600). You end up with a 5:25 advance time. I tried only using 2 villies on the second round of food, and i end up with more than 400 and can advance at 4:45. Wouldnt it be better to advance faster, as why have extra food in archaic age? (although you can then get upgrades faster...)


ESO: Orion_Zorn

Proud Member of the Orion Clan!

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posted 23 October 2003 03:15 PM EDT (US)     4 / 26  
Interesting post. I didnt read it thoroughly but from what i read it explains all kinds of raiding pretty good. Just want to add that when you dedicate a lot of units on raiding, your main army becomes weaker. This means 2 things :

1. Your eco is less defended so your enemy can hit you hard. But the thing is that if you keep the pressure high enough, your enemy will be too scared to send units to raid you, cause he will need them to defend against your raids. This is pretty much psychological.

2. You risk losing map control, especially later on(late classical+). By sending your units to raid, you leave your main army weak. This means that you lose the ability to prevent your enemy from getting a critical tc(close to you) and you also lose the ability to claim a critical tc on your own(for at least as long as you raid). Some may say that this is a fair trade off, since raiding hurts your enemy more than losing a tc. But this isnt the case later on, cause villagers can be easily be replaced(multiple tcs+stronger eco+more spreaded eco).

Aom has more psychology than you think. Agressiveness is the way to go actually. If your enemy is scared of you, then he will stay in his "shell". This means that he wont claim map control, he wont raid your eco, probably spend a little more resources on upgrading his towers. And this applies even on higher ratings, just in smaller scale.


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posted 23 October 2003 03:52 PM EDT (US)     5 / 26  
A very useful post thank you Cymophane. I've seen some of your games and you really do raid good Very good strategies though I am too lazy to make 2 groups etc I'm trying to at least.

When my enemy is playing aggresive on me I think he's a much better player than me, and maybe even accuse him of being a smurf in my mind I agree that psychology matters a lot. Then when I watch the rec game I understand that I could even beat him easily and he had a poor economy etc etc.


I think it's the time to change my sig.
posted 23 October 2003 05:33 PM EDT (US)     6 / 26  
nice one cymophane, it may help me beat Isis next time i play agaisnt someone who is Isis (i play Odin and Isis annoys me soooooooooooooo much)

oh btw Ekanta, how do you expect to do any damage when you are raiding with just 1 RC?

posted 23 October 2003 06:19 PM EDT (US)     7 / 26  
To NS_Cymophane: (or any experianced Norse raider)

I used to play as Thor(1700++) and only raided early to get ahead. I was more of a tower+TA rusher. Anywayz, I did raiding with Zeus(1700++) using two groups of 4 Hipps+2 Cents. Now I want to use Thor but I want to raid a little so my question is:

As a Thor player who will use RC(duh!), how many RC should be in a group??? I was thinkin of:

2 groups of 4 RC??
4 groups of 4 RC??

Now I know that RC are weaker than hipps when it comes to raiding villies so I increased the number of RCs/group.

2 groups of 8 RC??
4 groups of 8 RC??

Now which one do you think I should use???
(I play AOM:TT)


Proud Turkish Gamer

Gods Played: Kronos, Zeus, Thor

AKA. LoneWolf1, Stryder1, RazorFang

[This message has been edited by Turkish Warrior (edited 10-23-2003 @ 06:29 PM).]

posted 23 October 2003 07:20 PM EDT (US)     8 / 26  
Turkish, I think it depends on which civ and god you are raiding. I used to play Thor almost exclusively and I found that having two or three parties of RC's between 5-8 in each is ideal. Also, getting the 2 pierce armor techs really helps out alot. I play Titans, so I usually have one party raid, then send in the other party to raid, having the first party run slightly out sight range where my "free" Valkyrie is waiting. Heal up the first party, then have the second party come visit the Valkyrie. This tactic works best with minimum three different raiding parties. Your opponent gets so flustered and frustrated being raided so much, they usually get way behind...
posted 23 October 2003 08:15 PM EDT (US)     9 / 26  
Man...How much can u type guys, it took me 30 minutes to read all that

Everybody__@hotmail.com

ZmW_Everybody

posted 24 October 2003 07:36 AM EDT (US)     10 / 26  
quote *** Turkish, I think it depends on which civ and god you are raiding ***

your right, but you are missing the reason why experienced norse players play thor

his armoury

vs greek and eggy, go heavy on pierce armour upgrades and spend your food on cav

against another norse, go heavy on TAs and get the hack armour upgrades

against atlantean..well.. youll have to scout to see what hes building

but yeh, thor isnt as good as scounting as odin, and cannot rush like loki, but he can adjust to the enemyy he is playing.

against hades once, i got 3 pierce upgrades in classical
LOL
and it made a difference

[This message has been edited by Thors_hammer_256 (edited 10-24-2003 @ 07:37 AM).]

posted 24 October 2003 10:51 AM EDT (US)     11 / 26  
3 pierce upgrades in classical ? Jesus

I hear this internets pretty good. I was thinking of buying one

[This message has been edited by poppy123 (edited 10-24-2003 @ 10:51 AM).]

posted 24 October 2003 03:47 PM EDT (US)     12 / 26  

Quote:


My question is, when put the second round of 4 villagers on food i end up with like 500+ food by the time i advance (sometimes 600). You end up with a 5:25 advance time. I tried only using 2 villies on the second round of food, and i end up with more than 400 and can advance at 4:45. Wouldnt it be better to advance faster, as why have extra food in archaic age? (although you can then get upgrades faster...)

Zorn_Ot, When there's a lot of hunting you get a lot more food, what I normally do in that case is get the first wood upgrade halfway archaic or just before advancing. Another option is to go to classical earlier like you said. A faster classical means a worse economy (advincing with 20 vills gives you more resources than advancing with 18 vills for example) but with the free myth unit it gives you the possibility to do a very early rush. I've seen Odin players do this and their rush was very powerful.

NIB, you made some good points. Aom has a lot of psychology indeed. Even though most people know attack is the best form of defence the safety of their own base has still the highest priority for them, and you can take advantage of that by being very aggressive yourself.


Quote:

When my enemy is playing aggresive on me I think he's a much better player than me, and maybe even accuse him of being a smurf in my mind I agree that psychology matters a lot. Then when I watch the rec game I understand that I could even beat him easily and he had a poor economy etc etc.

BraveKarma, Being offensive against aggressive players may seem like suicdide but playing defensive against them means you will lose to them in the long run anyway. Next time if you get attacked just use your army to attack him instead while you defend with newly created units in your base. 90% of the times you will see attacking is the best choice, and for the other 10% the only way to learn is by making mistakes. Once you got some experience you will know exactly when to attack and when to defend. For now, most of the times you should be attacking. btw I'll post some TT recs on my site once I have some nice games.

Turkish Warrior, when I raid I don't have static sized groups. This means the sizes of my groups and the number of groups will change all the time. When I have a target to raid, for example if I scouted an enemy gold mine, I will split of just as many RC as I need to harass him. Later I may add those raiders to a bigger group again to win a battle. If you want to raid with static sized groups then I would recommend 6 to 8 RC in each group, because 4 RC are too easily killed by a group of villagers. 4 groups is good if you can micro them. If you notice you often have idle groups then you don't benefit from having extra groups so then it's better to have 2 or 3 groups. And of course, this all depends on the number of RC you have in total.


Member of NoFx
ESO: NoFx__Cymophane from now on
My website: www.cymophane.tk with Odin recordings and some more
NoFx site: www.nofx.clans.cc
posted 24 October 2003 04:11 PM EDT (US)     13 / 26  
Of course the one who can control more groups can get an advantage.However,it's very hard.
I dont see many players can control 3 groups or more effectively.
posted 29 October 2003 09:22 PM EDT (US)     14 / 26  
What should you do if someone gets the Tower upgrade (Egyptian) or worse Crenellations. Crens can absolutely stun any chance of raiding near towers unless you knock them down, and with an army defending this can be a difficult task, especially if they have houses or other buildings around them. What do you suggest?
posted 30 October 2003 03:28 AM EDT (US)     15 / 26  
the point of raiding is not to destroy your opponents gold but at the same time controlling every resource outside of his base. Against egypt just make his base like a prison to him and run ur rc around the base all the time, looking at hunting spots and gold. Ravens for odin are very useful for this and with thor you will just have to scout better in archaic with ur ulfie.

L_Clan_Dalamar, eso nicks: glhfgggb, L_clan_dalamar
posted 30 October 2003 03:50 AM EDT (US)     16 / 26  
this is the kind of post I love to see
thanks for the tips will try that
tired of nerfing request post :P

AKA Deep_Bed_Devil
Be Deep! Be Perve!! Be Careful!!!
posted 12 December 2003 09:10 PM EDT (US)     17 / 26  
nice post
i liked the thing about 2 groups on a gold mine best. every time i take up norse, I think it's the most fun civ to play. what has hades done in 8 mins? probably put up a second TC and made tox for defence. isis? what it says on my notebook under isis FH..

but norse? made 5 rax, spammed RC to run all over the map, possibly a group of TA or ulf's to create ambushes on his antiraiding parties? i have so much fun doing guerrilla warfare with norse.

thats my point and soon comes my question. when playing norse in this way (i think its the best way to play them, and they are the best civ to play like this..) your goal is not initially to overpower, or out eco ur enemy. u simply want to outsmart him. get him to guard gold with spearmen, ambush them with a bunch of TA he didn't know u had. make him follow ur army thinking he is stronger than u, flank his archers with the raiders he wasn't counting on.. that sort of thing is very important and effective with norse in particular. that's why i was so happy to see ur post Cymophane. i just wonderd if ppl have ceartain "tactiks" like this that they use? i bet they do so this was me naggin' u to post em'..

posted 12 December 2003 10:37 PM EDT (US)     18 / 26  
Also when raiding a group of vills, just set the raiding party next to them. Let them path and attack. I see a lot of people attack a villager with the whole group. They will follow that villager right to the tc.

R.I.P Shiva
posted 13 December 2003 01:56 AM EDT (US)     19 / 26  
Time for a KILL THE NOOB post.. however I've only been playing AoM for a little over a week now and I'm not familiar with the terms, and while reading this thread, I noticed the use of the word 'microing'.
Can anyone tell me what this means in lamens terms, as I'm sure I'll have a better idea of what he meant.

As well the term 'turtling'.

[This message has been edited by Rainmoon (edited 12-13-2003 @ 01:56 AM).]

posted 13 December 2003 10:07 AM EDT (US)     20 / 26  
Ok, I'll tell you. Turteling, is playing very defensive. I'm not saying don't attack at all, but by turteling I mean building walls, trade, farm and so on, so you don't show up out of your property. Many turtelers tend to raid a bit, but mostly don't attack all-out. They also tend to wonder, and sometimes, I haven't had this anytime though, they try to dig their Titan out.

Microing, is when you click one of your units, and click it to a unit they counter, instead of letting it loose, and attack the units that counter your units.

Hope this helped


The Wait Is Over

DoJo Clan Site
posted 25 December 2003 01:56 AM EDT (US)     21 / 26  
To Rainmoon

Micro is short for micromanagement.


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posted 25 December 2003 12:30 PM EDT (US)     22 / 26  
Alot of people think Egypt can't raid in Classical..but Isis and Set can raid in classical quite nicely with a Myth unit Called an Anubite...i think they are the Best Classical raider actually because they are Cheap at 100 food and 15 favor, they are fast, have a huge LOS, and at 60% hack armor and 55% pierce armor...they don't die very easily...couple that with them being able to leap...works wonders...i once had my Anubites jump just as the Oranos player casted Shockwave and it had no affect on my Anubites cuz they was in the air when it was casted.

a Group of 3 Anubites to raid really does an AWESOME job...bringing them back to be healed bye a preist and rinse and repeat...keep a Rax army close to home to secure ground while raiding with Anubites is still a viable strategy with Isis/Set

posted 26 December 2003 03:16 AM EDT (US)     23 / 26  
these are my tips 4 norse vs kronos rush. be in classic by 4-4,30. build temple behind tc, make some hersir. build at least 2 rax and make RC or ulfs. hopefully u will soon get an army about the size of his (due to better econ 4 ageing later, no travel distance 4 military, and norse units train fast, exept RC). attack and have ur rax pumping ULFS to the battleground. ulfs train in 9 or 8 secs (dont remember), RC in 18.. if u pump ulfs u should be able to kill/drive him off, due to MUCH faster reinforcements.

use vills to defend/attack when u need, but dont loose to many. trolls sound like a great idea, only i like to raid, and raiding is a good idea to if u can pull it off. and PICK UR BATTLES CAREFULLY.

posted 26 December 2003 03:22 AM EDT (US)     24 / 26  
um, sorry, i posted this in the wrong thread.. :P
posted 26 December 2003 06:59 AM EDT (US)     25 / 26  
Well my big tip to do with Raiding is to do with Idle rax. Dont ever have idle rax. Ok say your Odin and you have 4 rc and a valk, keep the rc coming out of your rax whenever you can, obviously to pay for upgrades and vills u will need some idle rax, but try to never have it. Also get your raiders(rc,hipps,turmas.) out to raid as soon as they are created. and always keep an eye on your raiders all the time.

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ESO Name: Rulezzz
posted 26 December 2003 03:16 PM EDT (US)     26 / 26  
With your 2 groups its easiest to put them into actualy groups with control 4 and 5 ( 1 2 3 i use for villies) then you can i think Shift+4or5(?)(shift+control+4or5?) to view them.

~RaZyCaY~

I told my psychiatrist that everyone hates me. He said I was being ridiculous Everyone hasn't met me yet

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