Before answering, I will outline just how one learns magic. When magic-users decide that it is time to pass their knowledge and wisdom on to another magic-user, they seek out a potential magic-user, usually a very young one. They do their best to convince the potential to become their apprentice. If the potential agrees, he or she goes to live with the magic-user and acts as their servant, much like a knight wanna-be must squire for another knight before receiving his title. After a period of time determined by the magic-user, they will declare their apprentice a full magic-user and take him or her to a greater magic-user in their order, an arch-mage, arch-wizard, or arch-sorcerer, if they themselves are not one. They will be offered the choice between the three orders. The new wizard, sorcerer, or mage will then be free to do whatever and live wherever they want.

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A student may have a particular order in mind to join, they might not. Their master would certainly influence them, particularly if they begin their apprenticeship at a young age. Even so, the apprentice of a sorcerer might choose to become a wizard, and vice versa. It depends on the student, but their master cannot force them to make a certain choice.

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The teacher might, but there are strict laws governing this that are followed by all three orders. If a teacher deliberately harms their student and is caught, the penalty is death.

In fact, breaking almost any of the laws governing the use or teaching of magic is punishable by death. Magic-users are very strict in ensuring that magically-powered lunatics aren't allowed to wander around blasting people to hell. Besides the bloodshed this would cause, it would also have the effect of turning all the non-magical people against magic-users, which would mean the end of them.

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They don't, unless they feel they need to. In that case, the greater members of the order would use Power magic to keep track of a particular person, as well as hiring people to keep a non-magical eye on them. If members of the same order need to identify themselves to each other, there are many magical and non-magical secret ways for them to do so.

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Any magic-user who leaves his order is considered a renegade. Once you are in an order, you are either in for life, or you aren't in any. This happened to Armande Gael, the greatest magic-user of all time. He was a mage, but he went directly and deliberately against the best interests of the mage order and was cast out of the order. Renegades are considered untouchables by the magic orders. No magic-user in an order will speak to them or acknowledge their existence, unless absolutely necessary. By and far, most people leave or are kicked out of their orders because they begin using chaos magic. Most of the renegades join the Chaos Star criminal organization. The others simply do whatever they choose. Renegades can never rejoin any of the three orders or improve their status in the eyes of their peers, no matter what they do.

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Unless two or all of the orders are actually competing over control of something, it is a nonviolent rivalry. Even when there is something to fight over, magic-users are very reluctant to start wars of magic. Battles fought purely with magic are particularly dangerous to the participants and innocent bystanders, and spells may spiral out of control to wreak havoc. Magic-users are also very concerned about reducing the number of magic-users in the world, even if they are of other orders. Mostly they wish to avoid riling people up against them, so when they do fight, it is usually in places that are uninhabitated.

[/quote]Do the Orders have much influence in the political situation on Therin?[/quote]

Magic-users have never and will never influence national politics very much, because all governments in Therin were set up and are run by mostly non-magical people, and therefore are wary of magic-users. Magic-users do greatly influence events on Therin, but not in the purely political arena.

Magic-users are very strict in ensuring that magically-powered lunatics aren't allowed to wander around blasting people to hell.

Ah crap that isent very cool man

Okay, more questions, from BH's OOC posts. BH can answer these when he gets the chance.

Now, I understand that I'm going to sound a little bit like a Devil's Advocate here - I'm just trying to get a better grip on what's going on. Incidentally, I haven't read the "white paragraph" in great detail - I don't want the whole story spoiled!

1. The Dragons have the Power of Creation. They all do, and collectively, they can recreate the entire multiverse. Does having the Power of Creation belonging to a single Dragon allow you to become the new One God, if you have equal parts of the other three? Or would you need all the Dragons (and all the "gods", and all the spirits of Destruction, and all the power in the Plane of Magic)? Would Korgan (who, being a member of a ruling race, must have a magic spirit) be able to become the One if you somehow gave him gifts from a Dragon, a "god", and a Spirit of Destruction?

2. Just what were the Dawn Elves like? I would assume that that much would be known, recorded, or at least remembered, by any that revere them (like presumably the High Elves)? What did they look like? Were they any different (in terms of physical capacities, intellect, etc.) from the races that follow?

3. Ilisclimė is supposed to have the gift of magic - I would guess that that means that she would have a strong enough magic spirit within her that she could exert magic. She could have been a Wizard/Mage/Sorcerer. However, she hasn't studied its use - she's concentrated her learning and skills on her gifts of the Power of Preservation from Yuardia (and given the nature of her religion, the Dragons, or some of them, at least, might chip in with Creation sometimes as well). Is this reasonable? Or does the use of magic also require being taught how to use it as well as having the requisite Spirit?

4. If my understanding is correct, the reason why Liches want to control the entire universe is because they are spirits of Change, and as spirits of Change, they want to control and change everything. However, if Aga-mannixx starts aquiring other powers (Creation and Destruction), shouldn't this then change its outlook? I understand that these three powers' combined outlook might be very bad (to wish to utterly destroy this universe and then recreate it anew), but then acquiring the fourth would tend to balance it.

5. I can think of two more Powers, in addition to the four that you've got, that have to do with time. (1) The Power of Reversion, which allows one to revert to something in the past, or to "unfix" (alter) the past, undoing what had been done, even by a conjunction of the other four Powers. (2) The Power of Fate, which allows one to "fix" the future, making its events as certain as would normally be events of the past.

1. The power of Creation has limitations. The Dragons do not possess all of the power of Change, and there is a finite amount of it. Most of the four powers are inert masses of energy that float around in their own dimensions. The Dragons don't have enough Creation power to make more of any of the four powers. Also, whatever they make has to be Preserved by a Preserver spirit or it will pop right back out of existence. To become the One God you have to possess all of the four powers, which would be a simple matter once you've gotten even a little of each of the four.

Let me make something very clear: You cannot give any of the four powers from yourself to another. Each spirit is individual, unless it's been absorbed back into its own plane. You can't mix them up unless you bring them back to their own plane, and if you can't do that you'll have to settle with however much power the spirit you can get has. You can steal someone else's spirit if you have one of the four powers yourself, but that spirit can't be of the same power and you can't already have that spirit. Your original spirit remains unchanged and simply takes over the absorbed spirit.

2. Actually, the dawn elves died out so long ago that most people don't know they exist anymore. The only two living dawn elves left are Bane and the Red Queen (no relation) and they haven't been talking to people about the dawn elves. The dawn elves were the original ruling race of Therin, and were very close to the Angels in terms of spiritual power. They were like the Angels, but not as powerful.

3. Clerical power is actually not the power of Preservation granted to the ruling races. What actually happens is that the Preserver spirits simply require their worshippers to use a vastly reduced amount of force to change something. It's still the power of Change, but it's much more specific and requires rituals to honor the Preserver spirit. The Dragons do not chip in to help the ruling races, ever. The Dragons always leave the ruling races to develop on their own. Study of magic is required because it hones mental discipline and the Preserver spirits allow wiser people to require less magical force to cast spells.

4. Aga'mannixx's original spirit of Change would always be the dominant spirit. The others' desires would never even be felt or acknowledged by it, it would simply acquire their powers.

5. I don't believe in omnipresence, personally. Besides, if your view of time was not linear, how could you continue to understand and be understood by people in a linear timeline? I just think time travel is overdone.

Presumably the former existence of the Dawn Elves would be available in the List of Black Saints - it it describes the Angels and the origins of the Devils, I imagine that the Dawn Elves would be mentioned and described in there somewhere. Of course, since there are many levels of Angels, and many different classes (looking very different), just saying that they were "like the Angels, but lesser" doesn't say much.

Anyhow, I guess that brings up a question: just how much would a well-educated person (educated in myth and legend, that is), such as Zargen or Ilisclimė, know? I would assume that Ilisclimė would recognize the significance of the High Elven Mage Priest's medalion as being the Golden Tree given by the Dragons to the Dawn Elves. Zargen, being a sorcerer, would probably know copious amounts about Demons and Devils, and by extension the Angels. Ilisclimė has probably read the List of Black Saints, too (or, at least, the parts of it that pertain to the Astrals, Dragons, the One, and whatever else she can find about the Creation of Therin). So what would they know about the Four Powers, who has them (and who doesn't), and what the Races in the early days of Therin were like?

*

Oh, and by the way, it looks like you've got to deal with time-travel somehow (or else the myths are lies). I dug this up:

Quoted from History of Therin:

However, I get some of your point. I still like the Power of Restoration (transforming something back to be the way that it was), although I suppose that you could do that with Change, or by combining Creation and Destruction (making what is into nothing, and then remaking what was anew).

Re: Fate, yeah, I don't believe in predestination either. In fantasy, I like to use a concept which I call Destiny - which allows you to attempt things that would otherwise seem quite impossible, but does not make things certain. It might be your destiny to save the world - but it won't happen if you take it for granted!

Anyhow, if there is going to be a Fate power, then there would have to be something that would defy it - perhaps a seventh power, Chance, or something like that.

*

Incidentally, wouldn't both the Dragons and Preserver spirits view Aga-mannixx as a threat? If so, and the Dragons were to create something that could defeat Aga-mannixx, wouldn't the Preserver spirits protect it from the Destroyer spirits so that it could do its job?

*

By the way, as I learn about what it would be possible to know (I hadn't read every detail of the History of Therin in great detail when I made Gilwė and Ilisclimė for some time, and it has changed since then), would it be possible to start another thread or something with which I could develop the two of them better (particularly Ilisclimė)? They, especially she, are evolving in my conception of them very greatly indeed since I started off, particularly in what their opinions are and what they believe in.

The List of Black Saints is a very incomplete understanding of the universe. It focuses primarily on the origins of hell and the people\creatures therein. It sometimes mentions or explains related things, but it leaves many questions unanswered for the sole reason that the author was never able to finish them. None of the fifty volumes describe dawn elves because the author had never met one anywhere. The author did write down that the Dragons possess the power of Creation, but you could learn that from other sources. That is the only one of the four powers that the List of Black Saints accounts for.

Anyway, the dawn elves basically looked like high elves. They were the supreme ruling race of Therin, which is to say they were physically, intellectually, and spiritually superior to all of the other ruling races. Their descendants weren't as great as they were, though, and some of these new elven subraces mixed with humans to create even lesser (in the dawn elves' eyes) elven races. The high elves are the closest race to what the dawn elves looked like, so close in appearance that you can't tell them apart just by looking at them. Thus, everyone who has seen the Red Queen simply assumes that she is a high elf. Dawn elves, Angels, and high elves all have pretty much the same basic appearance, except that high elves and dawn elves have pointy ears and no wings or halos.

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Actually, the story about the Golden Tree wouldn't be in the List of Black Saints, since that matter doesn't concern hell or its nefarious denizens. It would probably be recorded somewhere, I suppose, so Ilisclimė could know about it if she was looking for it specifically and was willing to sift through dusty old libraries for a while. Since she's a high elf, it's likely that she may have learned about it in Iniuth. Aga'mannixx learned about the divine powers over thousands of years of careful, patient clue-hunting. It has also learned a lot from the God of the dawn elves. Unless Ilisclimė has done the same, I doubt that she'd know who possesses the other three powers. As for what the ruling races were like in the early days of Therin, nobody except the surviving dawn elves remembers that. There aren't many records that survive from the collapse of the dawn elves' Council, and the centuries of war with the Red Tower that have already been fought.

The Dragons are a special, completely unique case, and they can't and haven't time-travelled since then. You can't change what has happened or what will happen like that. Somehow, I feel that that would invalidate the universe anyway. Either way, it would make free will an irrevelant lie.

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The Dragons and Preserver spirits are not omniscient, nor are they omnipresent. They do learn of what Aga'mannixx is doing, but there's little they can or will do about it. The Destroyer spirits can be resisted by applying any of the four powers as raw energy against them. There's certainly no Preserver spirit for the liches, but they endure through the power of Change. Creatures like liches that exist as pure divine power are far less vulnerable to being popped out of existence than us poor little mortals. In any case, the Dragons would have to create something of immense power to defeat Aga'mannixx, and they would not be able to control it. Once created, such a creature would not need to be preserved and might simply join with Aga'mannixx. Dragons can't control minds like spirits of Change can. That is how Aga'mannixx imprisons the Dragon and Destroyer spirit it captures, by simply paralyzing their minds.

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Not sure what you mean.

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Why would the hybrids (jade elves and fair elves) be any more inferior than high elves, dark elves, and wood elves? You have said that none of them - save the dark elves, who invariably have enough Spirit to be magic-users - are any different than ordinary humans, save for differences in lifespan and others that are essentially cosmetic. How are the various modern breeds of elves (dark elves excepted) any superior to humans? And if they are not superior, then how come the hybrids are even more inferior?

Incidentally, thinking about this... intelligence is hereditary; physical attributes are hereditary - is magic hereditary? To some degree, of course it is, since being a dark elf is hereditary. But if we assume, for example, that both Gilwė and Ilisclimė have the ability to practice magic (if they studied it), could we assume that their children would therefore be have or be more likely to have the gift than high elves at large would be?

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Ilisclimė is a hundred and ten years old or so, so she has had plenty of time to look up stuff that would be generally available to somebody willing to search. I would assume that she would know about the Golden Tree and at least some things about the dawn elves - that kind of archaeology is the sort of thing that she does. She obviously hasn't put the time into it that Aga'mannixx has - she just isn't old enough. Given that the fact that the Gods are really the Preserver spirits is in the History of Therin thread, I would assume that it would be more available than info about who has Change and/or Destruction (or how, for that matter, Preservation balances Change and Destruction in the normal world). So I guess that she might know or at least strongly suspect who has Preservation, given those circumstances (although, of course, if that information isn't so avaialable, than obviously she might not). The existence of magic is going to puzzle her to say the least - if she has thought about it very much, she would probably imagine that magic is somehow related to one of the four Powers, of which Change would be the most logical choice, but she might not know that magic and Change are the same thing (she might instead assume that there are Change spirits, akin to Gods/Preserver spirits and Dragons in power, and that magic is something given to mortals that the Change spirits deem worthy).

Whoof, long paragraph. Anyhow, that is what I would guess. Ilisclimė is very intelligent, so she would likely make guesses that aren't too far off even if she doesn't know the details.

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How long has it been since the dawn elves' Council collapsed? Given that all of your roleplays take place in the 61st milennium, I would have offhand guessed that it was twenty thousand years ago at least, and that the war with the Red Tower was just a recent event.

Has the Red Empire been actively seeking out information about the dawn elves and destroying it? That is something that would raise an alarm of some kind, I would guess.

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At the time that we fought the battle in the sewer, I did not know what the golden tree medalion signified. Later on, we discussed what differences Elves have from Humans in Therin, and I reread the History of Therin to try and get details. In doing so, I came across the myth of the Golden Tree. From that point on, I figured that, given that that symbol was of a religion that was kept secret, I then realized that the entire Red Empire was some version of the Dawn Elves' sacred quest to bring enlightenment to the world, but somehow gone horribly wrong (evinced by the fact that it had an evil undead sorcerer high up in the pecking order). I didn't guess all the details correctly - I suspected that the Isthygyna (the fact that there were eight of them) were of the Councilors or something of that nature. So, when I read the first few sentences of the White Paragraph (I stopped after that to avoid spoiling the rest of the plot), I really was not in the least bit surprised to find out who the Red Queen is.

Now, my original conception of Ilisclimė is that she was a, possibly the last, priestess of Yuardia, who was sort of a nature deity of the elves in general, and that Ilisclimė's conduct was that she be an exemplary female elf, by this standard. Now, exemplary would inevitably involve her being interested (if she knows of it) in the dawn elves' quest. So, it's something that she is going to pursue - and she would regard any elf claiming to follow that cause but serving along the side of an undead (like a liche) to be a traitor to the quest. Being an elven nature deity associated with the quest, I would expect Yuardia to be more associated with the Dragons than most other Preserver spirits. This is why I had been thinking that Ilisclimė should be able to do at least something by the Dragons' permission, but anyhow, if they have a talons-off approach, then that is what they have.

Anyhow, knowing what I know now, I feel that Ilisclimė is much more appropriate for the Heroes roleplay than For the Throne, although since she is an elf, she's immortal, and could easily play in both.

Now, I've said a lot about Ilisclimė and very little about Gilwė. If Ilisclimė is the cleric, Gilwė is the knight (in fact, that may even be what he thinks of himself as - a Knight of Yuardia). Gilwė is, of course, nowhere near as educated about theology and cosmology as his wife, partially because he concentrates his skills more on swordplay and partially because she's been in the religion business for longer. Gilwė also has to support Ilisclimė, since she, in her activities, generates little resources on her own (that's one of the reasons why he fights as a mercenary). He believes in the quest, though, and chooses his mercenary jobs judiciously for the factions that he believes are more worthy of his aid.

Anyhow, these characters are developing quite steadily. If they are going to be my general Therenic characters, I would like to discuss with you somehow how to flesh them out and fit them into Therin, since they otherwise feel a little on the outside of things.

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What do you think it's been 61,000 years since? The Council collapsed 61 millenia ago, which is why they started measuring time against that date. At the time of FtT, the war of the Red Tower has been going on for over three hundred years. The H&S roleplays won't take place for another six hundred years.

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I didn't say the only differences were cosmetic, I just said that they were like humans EXCEPT what I specifically said, and I listed some pretty serious differences in some cases. Still, the whole superiority\inferiority idea is simply the arrogant belief of most elves that they are superior than the other races because they're descended from the original ruling race. As for the power of the Spirit being hereditary, it actually is. It's not hereditary in a genetic sense, that you can actually pick out magic genes, but children of people with strong Spirits will tend to have stronger Spirits themselves. The closer a race is to the dawn elves, the stronger their Spirit tends to be. Dark elves are, in that sense, closest to the dawn elves, though high elves are closest in every other way. As for races being superior or inferior, that is again a mere belief, and not the truth. Everyone is equal in death, after all. When I say physically superior, I mean they were stronger, faster, tougher, etc., but certainly they aren't any morally stronger, on average. And a good stab to the back will kill a dawn elf, same as anybody else.

The Red Empire does not destroy information on dawn elves, but there's so little left it hardly matters. When a whole species has ceased to exist so long ago, then few would bother holding onto records. Especially with all the other troubles that they have, and everything else that has to be stored. With the deaths of Bane and the Red Queen, and the destruction of Aga'mannixx, the last dawn elves are utterly perished, and Bane was the last being on Therin old enough to remember the dawn elves in their glory. Aga'mannixx and the Red Queen lived in their fading years. I find it rather poignant, personally, that the noble quest of a basically decent people to better the world is carried out through bloodshed and war, and finally perishes by nearly causing a horrible calamity, averted only by the efforts of people that the dawn elves would have enslaved or outright killed, if they were still around. (Before you ask, because Feyd, at least, would resist to his last breath being controlled by the dawn elves.)

On the Isgythina: I'm not entirely sure what to do with them. I initially created them as Therenic Balrogs, basically, but now they don't really fit with the story. Will post more on them later, probably.

On Gilwe and Ilisclime: I think they're great characters already. I believe that the main problem is that I simply haven't provided enough information to blend PC's into the world as well as one could blend them into, say, the Forgotten Realms. This is entirely my fault, and I'm working to remedy it. If you have any specific problems with them, tell me. I'm juggling a lot of Therenic material, and most of it recently is not relevant to this roleplay.

On the future of Therin: If you think Aga'mannixx's horrible power is scary, which I do, be aware that if I ever get around to writing it down, you'll see that it's rather pitiful compared to some of the villains that pop up a few thousand years from now. The Red Empire is not a completely spent threat to the world, even after most of its leaders are destroyed, and it and the dawn elves (sort of) make one resurgence before they are utterly destroyed. But the orcs turn out to be okay.

[This message has been edited by Black Hound (edited 01-28-2004 @ 10:54 PM).]

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I had assumed that the year 0 corresponded with the Creation, and that the dawn elves had their golden age for some time following that. The seeming collapse of civilization (evinced by the loss of the dawn elves' technology) would, I suspect, have erased all records to such an extent that the current peoples of Therin would not even know exactly when it was that the dawn elven civilization collapsed, and that all that could be made was an educated guess.

Incidentally, I'm not sure that any of the races of Therin, or at least of the elves and humans, qualify as separate species. They're all interbreedable, and they all do interbreed (creating races like the fair and jade elves).

By the way, what happens when a high elf and a human have a child? Is it automatically a fair elf, or are the fair elves themselves a separate people that was merely descended from a mix of high elves and northerner humans?

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The brute elves, yes, I didn't think to mention them, but they are different.

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One thing that seems clear is that a good stab would kill an Angel - and they're clearly much higher than even the dawn elves!

As for morals, the only two races anywhere in Therin who I would describe as being morally decent would be the Dragons and the Odeshi (I wonder if the reptilian nature is any cooincidence?). Well, and the Angels - those that didn't go the way of the Infernals.

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Yeah, that always bothered me, too - it was never obvious from the HoT just what the Dawn Elves did with the conquered peoples. Maybe the elves of Therin don't deserve to survive at all...

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Well, part of it is answered by your statement that Therin isn't fully developed yet. I guess then that the thing that we would need to discuss would be Yuardia and her religion. Are there any deities on Therin that closely resemble Yuardia as I have described her? Recall that Yuardia is merely the name by which Gilwė and Ilisclimė know her by - she may be known by other names, even have other forms (some of which may even be male, not female).

One more thing on that: let us assume, for the moment, that Ilisclimė really is the last priestess of the entire religion, and let us also assume, for the moment, that said religion and deity presented Aga'mannixx with some serious opposition in the past (opposition that was defeated by a number of forces, not just Aga'mannixx itself). Would it be of significant interest to Aga'mannixx to make an effort to wipe out the religion altogether, or would a barely alive religion be of any threat, if it could one day grow more powerful?

*

Something else has also occurred to me. The ability of living things to reproduce is not inherent in the power of Creation, since in order to do so, living things must take in energy and matter and transform it and organize it in order to grow and multiply. However, the ruling races of Therin are not merely physical bodies to multiply and reproduce; they also have souls and spirits. The spirits presumably come from the plane of magic. Where do souls come from? Are they created with each new conception of one of the ruling races? Does this indicate that in addition to possessing spirits of Change that all members of the ruling races also have the (exceedingly limited) power of Creation?

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No, Therin and the dawn elves were created millions of years, although the dawn elves didn't awaken and take on physical forms until the other ruling races evolved on their own. They were the original ruling race, but they weren't physically much older than any of the others.

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Only humans and elves are genetically close enough to produce fertile offspring. None of the other ruling races can produce fertile offspring, so they're literally different species.

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The child would be a half-elf. Fair elves have much more northerner human in their blood than high elven. The same goes for jade elves and their ratio of high elven to southerner human blood. Half-elves have a random but equal mix of elven\human traits, but none are ageless like their elven parent. Only people who have significantly more than 50% elven ancestors are ageless, and they are considered elves of whatever sub-race, not half-elves. The same does not go for the offspring of mortals and angels\devils, though.

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It wouldn't kill the angel\devil, it would destroy its physical form and force it to return to Heaven\Hell to regain its body. Of course, the trick is to get a chance for that good stab.

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Don't think in terms of race. Could you say that humanity, as a whole, is morally decent or not? It all comes down to individuals. Also, the Dragons, angels, and devils are not 'in Therin,' anymore.

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Nobody deserves to die, no matter what they do. A life is simply worth too much to throw away, IMO, no matter what terrible things a person has done.

The dawn elves subjugated the entire world through the application of war and force, which is something I consider evil. They meant well, but they taught the younger ruling races some terrible lessons. The dawn elves introduced slavery into the world, for example, which is why the high elves practice it and the other races don't. They also gave the younger races a lot of knowledge and power that they weren't mature enough to understand and use wisely, though most of this knowledge and power was lost in the collapse of the Council. But the dawn elves also did a lot of lasting good.

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No, I don't think so.

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When you put it that way, Aga'mannixx might think to try to capture Ilisclimė and use her link to Yuardia to rip the goddess from her place in Heaven down to Therin. Yuardia would be forced to take on physical form, and Aga'mannixx could capture a Preserver spirit with its power over minds. On the other hand, even if it did realize that, it would also know that it could never hold onto Yuardia safely outside of the Red Tower, so it'd probably let Ilisclimė go for the moment.

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The soul is not composed of any of the four Powers. I can't really answer the question. The people of Therin have souls just like I believe the people of Earth do, but I don't know where souls come from.

Okay, new question: are clerical powers magic?

I guess that technically, the answer is yes, since magic is the power of the Spirit, and clerical powe is where the Preserver spirits let your Change Spirit get away with things that it normally couldn't. I also seem to recall that a clerical magic user can attempt to dispell or at least lift anti-magic from areas laid down by magicians, but that magicians cannot attempt to dispell or otherwise act upon clerics. Is this still true (or am I misremembering?)

Got another question (though I notice the last one was unanswered). What is the state of civic organization of most of the nations on Therin?

I get the impression that it's predominantly Enlightenment-era style; most governments are monarchies, the High Elves have a constitutional monarchy (one in which the King is still more than a figurehead, but does not hold all the power), and where the other feudal trappings (counts, dukes, barons, lords, knights, etc.) have been dropped, and that military organization tends to favor large, trained, carreer soldiers and recruit by means of volunteer or conscription, instead of oaths of fealty. Is this an accurate description?

(Obviously some nations, like the Goblins, the Orcs, and some of the other Elven kindreds, are more tribal).

I answered that other question in the FtT OOC thread, I think. Clerical powers are magic, but used in a much different way. Whereas regular magic is an instantaneous but tiring act of the mind, clerical magic is far more like D&D spellcasting, except the clerics can cast any spells given to them so far as many times as they want. The cleric's power comes from their God. They pray to their God\Goddess and their deity will usually draw back their preserving powers upon whatever the cleric wishes to change and allow the cleric to use magic with little mental effort. Though it's technically the same power, the two are so different that most people in Therin would never connect one with the other.

Basically, 'regular' magic is the pure power of Change and is a very, very rare talent. Clerical magic can be used by anyone their deity deems worthy, and is the power of Change working in conjunction with the deity's power of Preservation. Anyway, it's best to try and avoid thinking D&D style magic, because it's quite different. I think you've all got the idea already.

The state of the nation depends on the nation.

The high elves, or more correctly the high elven Houses, have something like a republic, with a 'president' who is not elected but hereditary. Their culture is so conservative, however, that the other cultures will advance past their level sooner or later and leave them behind. Right now the high elves are more sophisticated in some ways than the other cultures, but they are also the only nation that does slavery. At later dates, though, the high elves will become quite backwards compared with the other nations.

The dwarves' are divided into a group of clans and are not unified in a single nation. The clan leaders technically rule everyone in their clan, though each dwarf has a great deal of individual freedom. Relations between the clans are usually friendly, there's never been a dwarven civil war. Dwarves don't really have armies or militaries, each dwarf is usually a doughty fighter and they simply band together when they are fighting armies. Unfortunately, this means that dwarves are usually not accustomed to fighting in groups and can pose a problem for them militarily.

The North Kingdom is probably the most feudalistic of the various nations, tying with the East Empire. (What lame names... blek. ) The king\queen is in top of the power structure, their assorted relatives are beneath them, then the various noble families. The nobles are always jockeying for position and the favor of the crown, though they do so without violence, usually. Beneath these hereditary groups, there are knights and vassals. The knights are people, usually warriors, who swear allegiance to the king\queen. They lead the North Kingdom's military and are usually the most skilled soldiers and tacticians. They constantly sharpen their skills, either out of loyalty to the country or simply because it's their job and they get larger rewards for doing it better. Vassals are wealthy people who swear loyalty to the noble families or to knights. They are given lands, fiefdoms, in the kingdom to develop and rule, though they do not have absolute power even in their own fiefdoms. In times of war, vassals may be called upon to send armies to battle, so they always have at least a small standing army of trained volunteers and conscripts. Military training in the North Kingdom consists of rigorous physical exercise, practicing with various melee weapons, learning various simply formations and how to fight in them learning unarmed combat, honing marksmanship, training with shields, and training with various kinds of armor. Soldiers are divided into companies of 30 soldiers each, with a sergeant in charge of each company. Sergeants are picked from the soldiers who exhibit the best leadership qualities, and whom are particularly patriotic and brave. Regiments, consisting of ten companies, are headed by marshals, and armies are made up of however many regiments. North Kingdom generals are in control of all the soldiers in their armies. Various other officers may be appointed with different titles, and they have varying amounts of power in the military.

The Red Empire is much the same, except they have Red Princesses instead of vassals and knights. Red Princesses are excellent leaders and often are brilliant strategists, one reason that the Red Empire has been so succesful. Soldiers are trained in much the same fashion as troops of the North Kingdom, except that Red soldiers often have superior metal equipment and inferior wooden equipment.

I hope that answers your question.

Actually, that is very much the Renaisance-Enlightenment style: in a Medieval feudal system, a knight swears fealty to his lord, who swears fealty to the baron, who in turn swears to the king. So, if the baron decides to betray his king, all of the baron's knights will serve the baron, since they never swore to the king!

What you've got is the sort of kingdom under Louis XIV (died 1715).

Re: the High Elves, they definitely have a constitutional monarchy: a representative government supplemented by a king with limited power. As you say, they're less like England and more like the United States as far as their representative government is concerned, but they're still a constitutional monarchy. I don't see what you mean by "everybody else" will be far more advanced; a constitutional monarchy is a pretty advanced form of government (as I say, the British still have one), unless, of course, everybody else but the High Elves have gone to a one-world government...

[This message has been edited by Beren V (edited 02-26-2004 @ 00:20 AM).]

Okay, got another one: Ilisclimė is likely to get asked this sooner or later, and it's an interesting question in any case.

Suppose, for the sake of argument (I understand how rediculous this is), that a Dragon were to suddenly pop out of the Ethereal Plane, breathe lightning all over the FfT party (killing everybody), take the staff, and then return to the Ethereal Plane whence it came.

Everybody is dead - Zargen, Gilwė, Ilisclimė, Miliriel, etc. Their cooked bodies aren't going anywhere - they'll just lie there and get eaten by whatever scavengers get to them first. Their spirits will all go the plane of Magic, where they will get resorbed into the plane. Their souls will go to Heaven or Hell, respectively; some, the more irreligious (e.g. Zargen) will probably go to Hell, and the more devout (e.g. Ilisclimė) will likely go to Heaven. Those who go to Heaven will either become free souls or will become Archons, and those who go to Hell will become Demons.

Now, what will happen to some of the groups, here? We have two couples, one of which (Gilwė and Iliscliė) are fairly devout, so will probably go to Heaven together, and the even worship the same Preserver Spirit. Would they be separated, or would they still even be married as Archons?

If, say, the decidedly religious individuals (e.g. Gilwė, Ilisclimė, Durin, Miliriel) were to come back to Therin as Archons to fight the Demons that had been the individuals who worshiped Power alone (e.g. Zargen), how much would the souls resemble the elves and humans (respectively) that they once were? How would their personalities (and bodies) differ?

[This message has been edited by Beren V (edited 02-26-2004 @ 02:52 AM).]

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Only if they choose to. Most souls don't remain in the world, they escape the physical world entirely and pass out of the reality we're capable of perceiving. How good or bad or religious you were in life has no bearing on what happens to your soul at all. The circumstances of your death don't matter either. Everyone goes to the same afterlife and experiences the same thing.

One might ask, therefore, what's the point of life? Why not just kill yourself and get it over with? That is pretty much the basis of my personal take on the universe. The way I see it, you shouldn't need to be bribed with promises of a nice, happy afterlife to do the right thing. The truly good people are those who do what they know is right even when nothing they do will make a difference in the end. No one in the universe knows for sure what happens after you die, but why should it matter? To live for an afterlife is to devalue your life while you have it. Just because the souls all go on to the same afterlife in the end doesn't mean that the good or bad things they did in life don't matter to the living.

But for the sake of argument, I'll assume that all of your characters would choose to remain in the circles of the world and become Archons\Demons. First of all, it doesn't matter if you were a religious person or not, all that matters is if you were a decent person in life or not. If you were, you get to go to Heaven, if not, you go to Hell. Neither place is really all it's cracked up to be. Heaven certainly isn't a pure, painless paradise, and Hell isn't pure torment. The war between Heaven and Hell is an on and off thing that the Angels and Devils fight kind of half-heartedly, since they know perfectly well that the war can never end. The Archons and Demons throw themselves into it, since they still have their mortalish views.

As for what Archons and Demons are like after death, that depends. They are exactly the same as in life, except that their new home often changes them in odd ways. This usually has a stronger effect on Demons than on Archons, which is why Demons tend to look so dramatically different and are more powerful.

All in all, it's a question I can't answer. Only you would know how your characters would be changed by it, if they chose to remain within the world after death.

I seem to have offended when no offence was meant. There is plenty of reason to live in the real world, especially if your soul without your body isn't the whole of you. I was just wondering how different a person would be without its body and with a new body of an archon or demon.

I asked this question because, when reading your HoT thread, you claim that the Preserver Spirits made a deal with the Devils that the souls of those people who go against the Preserver Spirits' laws go to the Devils to be tormented, and that the Preserver Spirits made a similar deal with the Angels where the souls of those who followed their laws would go to the Angels' plane, which would be a 'paradise' for any mortal being. So, I had assumed that the soul of a relatively religious person would go to become that of an Archon, whether the religious person was a devotee of Rava or of Vargoth, and that Zargen, who is a self-proclaimed devotee of none of the Preserver Spirits, would have his soul become a demon.

As Ilisclimė, for instance, would be quick to point out, however, your soul goes onto an afterlife but your body remains dead forever, so "you" aren't really you in the afterlife, since you get a new body, that is by necessity different from your old one (being of different race), and consequently your feelings and instincts will be different as well. What I was asking was "How different?", and such. I can fully understand that it would be different from person to person.

Re: a reward for good behavior, I will note that I don't believe that earlier. I remember your character, Drago, in the Pendant of Disgrace roleplay, thinking that very fact, and how most people of most race didn't feel that way. The irony indeed was that Maialiwen, whom this thought may even have been directed at, actually felt as he did: in fact, she doesn't really believe in an afterlife at all!

Beren do you ALWAYS have to refer to me are one of my characters in some way are another? It really gets annoying

My appologies, Zargen. I kept referring to you because you have said the most about your character's religious philosophy thus far in the game - namely, that "power is the only god" that your sorcerer worships. Therefore, I've been using you as an example. I'll stop now and use Falcon instead - Elurin remarked that he isn't the religious type either

I didn't take any offense from your post, Beren. It was a good question.

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Well, it depends. Archons are more or less exactly the same in every way as their living forms, except the ways in which they die are more limited. Being an Archon or Demon, BTW, is a one-shot thing. If you die as an Archon or Demon, you're dead for good and pass on whether you want to stay or not. Angels and Devils can opt to remain in the world.

I'm going to rework the whole HoT at some point, probably over this weekend actually, so don't take anything it says just yet as absolute. I'll post when I'm done with those edits.

Okay, when you're ready, I've got another very brief one. Are you planning on running any more rp's between FtT and the Heroes/Shadows roleplays, or is it just the two?

(Incidentally, BH, if you are wondering why I didn't post in FtT, it is because you said you were waiting for Elurin and so I'm waiting for you)

At the moment, I'm not sure. There's a lot of material that I could use for another roleplay, but it largely depends on how many people are around to play it. Immediately after FtT is over, if there's enough people, I'd like to give the Heroes\Shadows Roleplay another shot.

Yea id like another shot at that. Heros/shadows roleplay was very good

Alright, questions re: creation beliefs.

1) Just how mutually exclusive are the different myths? It seems to me, for instance, that it would be possible to have a naturalist picture of the development of the world (e.g. geology, evolution) that was started off by some power (e.g. a single God, or the Dragons). Are these intermediates considered heresies, or are they possible or even common methods of explaining the world?

2) Why do those who believe that Therin has evolved over time necessarily also believe that it is their power (or even their right) to conquer and harness it with their magic/technology?

3) Of the Divinists... why do they necessarily believe that God must be benevolent?

1) Check the post in the History of Therin, I'm expanding on them.

2) There is a big difference between Naturalism and Rulism. While Naturalism simply says that there is no paranormal aspect to the universe, Rulism proceeds to say that there is no single correct morality, and that good and evil are not real things. Rulists also believe that plants, animals, and inanimate objects have no rights or safety beyond what is given to them by the ruling races. So, Rulists would have absolutely no problem with cutting down a forest to make houses, for example, nor would they care if they caused the extinction of a species of animals and plants while gathering natural resources. A Rulist vision of paradise is one where the ruling races utterly control and understand all aspects of the universe through magic and science. Rulists are not necessarily Naturalists, though. In the farther future of Therin, as technology and magic allow the ruling races to dominate more and more of their world, atheistic Rulists will come to be the dominant 'religious' force.

3) Nobody wants to believe that God is evil.

A couple more have occurred to me, and rather unrelated, I think.

(1) Regarding souls on Therin, do all people begin with the same amount of soul? They are not created with the same amount of spirit or body, of course, but do they have the same amount of soul? Also, one other thing that has occurred to me: in some fantasy roleplaying settings, especially those using experience levels (which I know you used for your first edition of the Heroes roleplay, long ago), characters who get stronger, among other things, get more souls. Does this describe Therin?

(2) Re: religions... Is the church of Vargoth principally a Dark Elven religion? I remember that you have Lathret, the God of the Dark Elves, as being distinct from Vargoth (Lathret, I recall, has a holy symbol of an upside-down tree made of obsidian). What powers to followers of Lathet have? Or are the powers of different priesthoods even known (apart from healing and the capacity to dispel undead, of course)?

(3) Is there any sort of ressurective magic on Therin (apart from creating undead, that is)? I tend to get the impression that there is not, but if there is, then how does it work? Also, on a related note, what happens if you kill a demon or archon? A Devil or Angel, I know, goes back to either Heaven or Hell, but do Demons and Archons do the same?

1) It would seem logical to me to think that you have exactly as much soul as spirit, if you want to look at it that way. On the other hand, you could say that the soul and spirit are like seperate individuals. In that case, you can't exactly have more or less of a single person, although individuals vary in physical strength.

2) The Draconic gods are all in the same pantheon, much like the Greek or Roman gods, so people can worship more than one god while believing that all of them are real.

3) Nope, no resurrection of any kind, and undead don't count. Only liches and vampires retain any semblance of their living selves, and they're not at all like they were in life. Other undead don't even have minds. When you die, your soul simply cannot return to your body, and therefore the person you were is dead and gone forever.

The same thing happens to demons and archons as happens to angels and devils. Demons and archons, like angels and devils, can choose to pass on to the afterlife at any time, but if they choose not to they'll just pop up in Heaven\Hell again. Demons and archons, by the way, don't count as resurrected either, even if they return to their home world. They have died and are now in another form of existence entirely, since their basic nature has been totally altered.

I see. I guess I can imagine that - ressurection might not be applicable to the power of Change (it would be Creation), so even if it's possible (which it would sort of have to be, given what is possible with Creation), it wouldn't be available.

Alright, new question. It is obvious that Aga'mannixx is no ordinary Change spirit. It seems more like a deity, like the Preserver Spirits, like the Dragons, etc. Yet it originally was the Spirit of a magic-user of what was once a common race, and not the greatest of the Ruling Races (i.e. Angels) either. How did it get this powerful? Was it somehow orchestrated to be a quintessential Change spirit, moreso than ordinary Liches, enough to be a Lich-god? Or did it merely get this powerful through tens of milennia' worth of growth and experience? If the latter, then how come it would be not possible for another creature to achieve lichdom, and then build up to be equal to Aga'mannixx (you said that there 'will never be' another one this powerful)?

ooooo lemme answer this one Bh and see if im on the right track! What I believe about Aga'mannixx is that he was just any other mortal. Except for one thing. A uber sized hunger for power and greatness. So basicly the bigest ambitious mind around. And adding on how long ago im geussin his mortal being was, he had a very long time to grow stronger and stronger. One step at a time kind of thing. And to answer the last bit no one would get as strong as Aga'mannixx simply because no one would allow sutch a thing again.

Whoa, I just realized I can't remember if the deity of the Dawn Elves is male or female. Amrathar sounds more masculine than feminine, I guess...

When Aga'mannixx was alive, he was the third-most powerful magic-user in the world, right behind Bane and the Red Queen(not their names at the time, of course). This was partly because he had an extremely strong spirit and partly because of training his magical powers. After his transformation into lich-hood, its magical powers increased dramatically. Ever since, it's powers have been steadily growing. Sometimes its power was increased greatly beyond normal growth. When it raised the Red Tower from beneath the earth of Yorun, it gained a great deal of power. Liches also possess the ability to absorb the spirits of people at the instant of death into themselves. Beings with souls can't do this because their soul prevents it.

It would be impossible for another lich to gain the amount of power that Aga'mannixx has because, for one thing, many of the things that empowered Aga'mannixx can't be repeated, and for another thing no non-Dawn Elven magic-user can start off with the kind of power that Aga'mannixx had at first. Dawn Elves had much more potent spirits and souls than the races that came after them.

At its current level of power, Aga'mannixx would stand a good chance of killing one of the Infernals. For reference, an Infernal could obliterate Therin if Therin were in Hell. Since Therin is under the influence of Preserver spirits, unlike Hell, magic is much, much more difficult to use there. Even so, Aga'mannixx could probably destroy the world if there were no other factors in consideration. By destroy, I mean reduce the planet to fine dust. Most of Aga'mannixx's energy goes to its Power magic, affecting fate all over the world, but what's left over is more than enough to decimate any non-Dawn Elven magic-user in the world. Aga'mannixx possesses the strongest magical spirit of any being in existence. Which isn't as grandiose a claim as it might appear to be, since there is an infinite amount of each of the four Divine Powers in the universe, and all beings' amount is finite. If Aga'mannixx were to come into contact with the plane of Change, however, where the infinite amount of Change energy is, then it would gain the power to instantly and totally change anything it wanted in any way it wanted with a thought. From there, it would simply absorb the other three Powers and become the next One. Besides absorbing Change energy, liches can also absorb the other three forms of Divine Power if they absorb all three other kinds at once. I take back my earlier statement that this alone would make it omnipotent, but it would certainly make fighting it even harder.

Aga'mannixx required all that power to get as far as it did, but in the end it still wasn't enough.

In Therin's far future, however, others will come much, much closer to that goal without having to become liches. But that's another story entirely...

One thing I want to emphasize is that in Therin, the Ruling Races are equal to the Preserver spirits, Dragons, Destroyer spirits, Devils, and Angels, in their own way. There is no power that is beyond the ruling races' reach, and the things that mortals do can far more important than what the others do. Although they often aren't.

Anyway, I'm saying that Aga'mannixx was capable of achieving its goal and then doing whatever it wanted as the Divinity of the universe, and it failed not because it was always destined to do so but through the selfless (and selfish) acts of others.