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Topic Subject: The Citadel of Books OOC
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posted 08-05-10 00:28 AM EDT (US)   
It has been six years since a clan of Hylar, perhaps the only surviving clan, invaded the lands of Nidar and seized them by the skill of their warrior priestess commandos and the formidible magic they wielded on the day they came. Within months, the priestess queen Laramní erected the great Citadel of Books, a tall fortress containing a library rumored to contain all knowledge of magic of the Hylar. The royal mages cast a spell which opened a gate between the Citadel and another place of magic in a distant land to the north, through which came many thousands of elite Hylarin troops followed by over a hundred thousand Hylarin settlers. The territory to which they had laid claim was now theirs through spell and steel. Only then did it become clear why the Hylar had so suddenly, and without warning, assaulted and taken this land: their home had been besieged from a great evil in the north, and they could not hold it, and in desperation, they had taken this land to be their new home.

In the time that has passed since, the Hylar have endeavored to make peace with their new neighbors, the Kingdom of Damarin, to whom Nidar had belonged prior to the Hylarin invasion, and the neighboring lands of Eluchish, who had been Damarin's mortal enemies prior to the invasion. In the first year, Queen Laramní erected a fortified temple in South Nidar, and the elves have begun to convert the agricultural production of their new kingdom to suit their own way of life, and in time have begun to attempt trade with their former enemies as a sign of no continuing ill will. While many resent the loss of the land they have taken, few can dispute the reality that they have taken it. The Hylar themselves rebuild their society, they take council against the evil they fled, in the hopes that it will not find them here.

*

This game takes place a long time after the Jade Warrior but in the same universe, or perhaps an alternate direction of history from that universe, as envisioned by the Music. The Hylar are a tribe of elves, characterized by an adventurous, vigorous, and learned (even academic) culture.

I am including an encyclopedia of relevant information on Nidar, the Hylar, and important figures in the game.

I have a plot in mind for this game which will center around unraveling ancient mysteries and secrets. However, I plan on running it more like that one elf's Faerûn game in that I intend to leave the game's direction and the pace at which the mysteries unfold largely up to the players.



Rules for Character Creation:

Player may play any race from the Player's Handbook, plus Orc, Aasimar, Tiefling, or anything else approved by the GM. Player characters should begin at ECL 2, and use a 32-point buy (as described in the DMG). Starting wealth should be typical for that of a level 2 character.

Rules for gameplay (including character creation) should generally be assumed to follow the rules presented in the PHB, with exceptions as noted below. Information on ritual magic should be consulted in the encyclopedia.


Changes to Races:

Elves receive a -2 to Fortitude saves (which affects their HP, see changes to combat). Elves do not get -2 to Constitution.


Changes to Classes:

Note on all classes: magic-using classes now refer to paths. Paths are representations of magical knowledge and favor, analagous to but different from schools. Different nations, their respective religions, and traditions, have access to different paths. Please refer to the encyclopedia for what paths a particular nation has.

Note on skill points: All classes have at least four trained skills (+1 skill per point of Int modifier), even if they otherwise would only get two.

Bard - Bards must belong to nations with either the Air, Astral, or Nature paths.

Cleric - Instead of taking one spell per day per level from their domains and multiple spells per day per level from the general cleric spell list, clerics instead take one spell per day per level from the general cleric spell list and multiple spells per day from spell lists related to their domains. Spells related to a cleric's domains can be taken from the cleric, druid, or wizard spell lists as the cleric desires, but must be justifiably related to one or the other of said cleric's domains. Clerics can still spontaneously cast healing (or infliction) spells from spell slots taken from the general cleric spell list. Clerics can also spontaneously cast spells actually on their domain spell lists from spells they have prepared related to the domain from which they are spontaneously casting. A cleric's domains must be taken from the list of acceptable Paths available to a cleric's nation, god, and tradition (see Encyclopedia for a list of paths).

Druid - Druids must belong to religious traditions that include both Nature and at least one of the four elemental paths.

Elven Priestess - Elven Priestess is a new base class that resembles the Cleric but differs in the following aspects:
-Elven priestesses have a poor Fortitude save and a good Reflex save.
-Elven priestesses have no proficiency in either armor or shields.
-Elven priestesses get a bonus to armor class equal to their Wis bonus. While elven priestesses with proficiency are not forbidden from wearing armor, the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by an armor includes both the priestess' cannot exceed the sum of the priestess' actual dexterity bonus plus her wisdom bonus for calculating her bonus to AC.
-Elven priestesses' class skills include everything possessed by either the cleric or the druid.
-Elven priestesses wearing armor are subject to divine spell failure. This works exactly like arcane spell failure, except for elven priestesses being divine spellcasters.

Fighters - Profession (soldier) and Knowledge (warfare) are considered class skills for the fighter.

Monks - Monks must belong to religious traditions possessing either Astral or Nature paths.

Rangers - While not required to belong to nations possessing magical traditions of any kind, Rangers must belong to nations possessing either Earth or Nature paths if they are to cast spells.

Sorcerers - Sorcerers do not have access to spells from the wizard's spell list. Instead, a sorcerer chooses a path from the options of his nation's mythology. A sorcerer can learn any spell from the wizard, cleric, or druid spell list, provided that it is associated with that path.

Wizards - Wizards should generally be specialists (exceptions will be permitted, but such wizards will be rogue wizards and have a hard time getting access to spells). While specialist wizards are free to choose which schools they are forbidden from using, the school they specialize in must correspond to one of the schools accessible to one of the paths of the tradition to which they belong. Each path has an associated school, but apart from the association between path and school, wizards need not care about their nations' paths.

Multiclass characters - When multiclassing, you get the class abilities of each class you have (including bonus feats and spellcasting but not including hit points, base attack bonus, or saves) equal to the level you have in that class plus one half of the combined levels of all other classes you have. You cannot have class abilities exceeding twice the class level you have in any class, however, even if your other classes more than twice outnumber the levels in that class. Finally, class abilities that duplicate abilities from other classes and which normally stack (e.g. sneak attack for the rogue and assassin, or spellcasting for the loremaster and any base spellcasting class) do not multiply each-other this way, although other classes who do not have the abilities at all still add to the effective level of the stacking ability as normal.

Gaining levels - Every four levels, a character gains ability points. A character gaining ability points chooses one of the following: either (1) increase two different ability scores, both of which are below the character's racial ability score maxima, by one point each, or (2) increase a single ability score which already equals or exceeds the character's racial limits by one point.


Changes to Skills:

Characters do not gain skill points. Instead, they choose a number of trained skills equal to their former skill points per level (minimum 4 + int modifier), and make these skills trained skills. If a character gains another class later that has more trained skills than all previous classes, the character gains the difference in trained skills up to the the number required by the new class. However, while a character gets the best number of trained skills from among his classes, getting trained skills from multiple classes do not stack. A skill is assumed to be a class skill for a character if it is a class skill for any of his classes. If a skill was cross class originally, but later becomes a class skill, the bonus improves as the skill becomes a class skill. Skill ranks (and consequent boni) for a character are assumed to be the following:
For trained, in-class skills: 3 + character level
For trained, cross-class skills: half of the number of ranks an in-class skill would have.
For untrained, in-class skills: class level divided by 4
For untrained, not-in-class skills: zero

Swim, Climb, and Jump are combined into a single skill called Athletics (Str).

Balance and Tumble are combined into a single skill called Acrobatics (Dex).

Listen, Search, and Spot are combined into a single skill called Perception (Wis).

Hide and Move Silently are combined into a single skill called Stealth (Dex).

Knowledge (warfare) - This skill covers all knowledge pertaining to warfare, including weapons, tactics, military information on the nations of the world including strength, military policies and personages, as well as military history. A character with 5 ranks in Knowledge (warfare) gets a +2 synergy bonus to Spellcraft checks to identify spells primarily used in combat.


Changes to Feats:

Personality feat: Upon character creation, each character gets one personality feat. A personality feat is a feat that provides a character with an attribute dependent upon the character's bodily shape and construction, or special coordination, such as Acrobatic, Diehard, Alertness, or Agile Athlete. A character need not satisfy the prerequisites for a personality feat in order to take it. Feats that normally represent skills, such as Weapon Focus, Power Attack, etc. are not acceptable personality feats. The personality feat gained is in addition to the normal feat that first-level characters get.


Changes to combat:

Hit Points - Characters have vitality and wound points. A character's vitality points are equal to his or her rolled hit points, assuming average rolls, plus his or her Con modifier on each roll. A character's wound points are equal to his or her strength score (not modifier) plus his Fortitude save modifier.

Armor Class
Armor class = Base Armor Class + Skill Defense
Armor boni (real or natural) do not add to armor class.

Base Armor Class
Base Armor Class = 10 + Size modifier + Deflection bonus + Shield bonus + misc. modifiers.

Skill Defense
Skill Defense = base attack bonus + Reflex save modifier + misc. skill modifiers + square root of vitality.
Misc. skill modifiers include anything that increases armor class but which is denied to a helpless character, such as the monk's or elven priestess' wis bonus, dodge boni, etc. The square root of vitality is rounded down.

Characters who are flat-footed do not add their reflex save bonus to their skill defense, but they still get to add their base attack bonus (if applicable - see below) and the square root of their vitality. Characters who are unaware of an attack (genuinely unaware, not just flat-footed) do not get any part of their skill defense. For the purpose of determining if a character is unaware, Invisibility is assumed to expire about a second before an attack is made, which is just enough time for the target not to be considered unaware.

Characters only add their base attack bonus to their skill defense if they are carrying a weapon, shield, or other implement with which to block an incoming attack. Weapons (but not shields) are generally less effective at deflecting projectiles, so provide half the bonus if the target does not also have a shield or something else they can use for cover. If you attempt to block a melee attack with a weapon two size categories smaller than the weapon being used against you, you must roll opposed grapple checks to still use your weapon to block.


Damage:

A hit which misses your base armor class is a miss and causes no damage.

A hit which hits your base armor class but misses your actual armor class causes vitality damage. As long as your vitality remains positive, you suffer no additional ill effects. However, for every 5 points of vitality you drop below zero, you get a -1 cumulative penalty to both your attack bonus and your skill defense. While there is no theoretical limit to how negative your vitality can get, your penalty to attacks cannot be larger than your base attack bonus, and your penalty to your skill defense cannot reduce your skill defense bonus below zero.

A hit which hits your armor class causes wound damage. Any critical hit also has its first multiplier of damage going straight to wounds (the rest hits vitality, unless the initial threat roll was also hit your armor class). If you take wound damage for any reason, you must roll a Fortitude save against a DC of 5 + damage taken. In addition to your Fort save bonus, you also add your armor bonus (both armor and natural), and 1/4 of your remaining wound points (assuming you take full wound damage) to your save. If the save fails, you are dying. If the save fails by more than 10, you are dead. If you make the save by more than 10, for each point by which you made the save by more than you, you negate one point of wound damage to a minimum of zero. You cannot negate more damage than your total armor bonus with a high save, and you cannot negate any of the first multiplier of damage from a critical hit.

If you take damage from something which does not involve an attack roll that directly hit you (including automatic damage such as a Magic Missile, or anything that hits an area of effect), you roll a reflex save at a DC equal to 10 + the damage suffered, adding a bonus to the reflex save equal to the square root of your vitality if it is positive. If you make the save, the damage you take goes to your vitality. If you fail, then for each point by which you failed the save, one point of the damage you take goes to your wounds instead (all of it goes to wounds if you roll 10 or less).

Armor is generally about 50% effective against energy attacks, providing a halved bonus accordingly. There are exceptions, which should be considered using logic (e.g. metal armor won't protect you at all from electricity).

If you are dying, you roll a Fort save each round, starting at a DC of 0 and increasing by 1 each round. If you roll a natural 20, you self-stabilize. If you fail, you die. If you have the diehard feat, you both get a +4 bonus to the roll and you must fail twice in order to die.



Changes to Spells:

Ritual spells play an important role in this game. Much of the magic system of this setting was inspired by a game called Dominions, which you can find information on online if you like. Details of how rituals work or some specific rituals relevant to this setting are in the encyclopedia; however, I have not created a grimoire of ritual spells like the spell list in the back of the PHB. I do allow and encourage players to research and design ritual spells, just as I encourage them to research and design spells that use the normal D&D spellcasting mechanics.

Revival spells (Raise Dead, Reincarnation, Resurrection, etc.) are modified in the following way. If a character dies and that character has a life insured by the Music or rituals that invoke the Music, then the character can either be resurrected or replaced by invoking the ritual, artifact, or destiny that protects him. Characters who can be resurrected can be targeted by any of the revival spells, which will work without expensive material components, and no level loss. Characters not protected in any way cannot be resurrected, period. Characters with some partial insurance can be resurrected, but the material costs and side effects still apply. Some of the rituals already in place are described in the encyclopedia.

It should be noted that Queen Laramní is only a nineth-level priestess, however, and other powerful characters can similarly be expected to be surprisingly low level...

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign

[This message has been edited by Beren V (edited 08-14-2010 @ 01:16 PM).]

Replies:
posted 08-05-10 09:04 AM EDT (US)     1 / 96  
I'm up for another game if this receives sufficient interest. Unfortunately, this board isn't looking very vibrant, with Lighthawk and Tilia AWOL. Accusync probably won't approve of all your rules changes, since he's a bit of a 3.5 purist unless the fighter gets considerably better as a result.

That would leave it pretty much up to my friends in the Fallout Campaign, and as we play 4e around the table, I'm not sure if they're willing to step back into a 3.5 variant. But I won't speak for them, but rather point out that I enjoyed Jade Warrior when it was active and would like to see them get in on this.

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 08-05-10 10:34 PM EDT (US)     2 / 96  
Yeah, I hope Lighthawk and Tilia will come back. The multiclassing rules do make Ammeen's usual fighter/something combo quite a bit better, but he doesn't seem to like having to learn new rules, and this certainly does change the rules somewhat (goblins are quite a bit more durable, ogres significantly less).

By the way, do you think your Fallout friends might be interested in joining a d20 Modern (or maybe Mutants & Masterminds) game I'm thinking of starting up?

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 08-06-10 09:01 AM EDT (US)     3 / 96  
I'm interested in this. I've never played 3.5 before (only 4e), but that one elf's been trying to teach me the basics of 3.5. If this gets going, then I'll join.

"'I quite agree with you,' said the Duchess; `and the moral of that is--"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."'"' --the Duchess from Alice in Wonderland
posted 08-06-10 09:38 PM EDT (US)     4 / 96  
Hi BeNotConformed!

I actually seriously considered using parts of the Pathfinder rules, which include a number of the good things about Fourth Edition (such as characters being either trained in skills or untrained, without having to keep track of how many skill points you do or don't have). If you would like to do this to be a little more like 4E, I would be happy to do so - up to you and the other players!

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 08-08-10 03:13 PM EDT (US)     5 / 96  
Well, like I said, I can't speak for them. I'll try to direct their attention into this thread, though.

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 08-08-10 03:16 PM EDT (US)     6 / 96  
It's really up to you, Beren. I can learn the details, but if you want to make it bit more 4e-ish, then I won't complain! :-)

"'I quite agree with you,' said the Duchess; `and the moral of that is--"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."'"' --the Duchess from Alice in Wonderland
posted 08-08-10 04:48 PM EDT (US)     7 / 96  
Not surprising, I would like to join as well…
I don’t know about Tilia… she may not want to join more than the two campaigns she is already in, but I will ask her next time I see her…
As for the rules, do what you like, I kind of enjoy trying out new rules…

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod
posted 08-08-10 11:27 PM EDT (US)     8 / 96  
Cool! I just modified the skills section - skills are now going to run more like 4E (you have trained skills and untrained skills, in-class trained skills just have a bigger bonus).

What character ideas are you guys thinking of?

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 08-11-10 04:27 PM EDT (US)     9 / 96  
I think I would like to play a young lizardman (if you will allow that) since lizardmen are ECL 3 even without any character classes, he would have to be weaker than a normal lizardmen I was thinking that he could have a single racial HD and one natural armor less than a normal lizardman. He could then pick up the last racial HD (along with the last point of natural armor) later.

Alternatively I would like to be an elf druid or perhaps a sorcerer with a nature path (and such pretty druid-like)

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod
posted 08-11-10 06:11 PM EDT (US)     10 / 96  
I might just see what everyone else chooses and pick accordingly. I've never played a cleric and think it might be interesting or, if Beren's good with it, a Favored Soul like the second character I made for Jade Warrior (essentially a spontaneous caster cleric). Otherwise I've always liked the Monk, even if it bugs me that they use the moderate base attack progression....

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 08-11-10 06:31 PM EDT (US)     11 / 96  
I have some questions as to how the rules work

1)you don’t mention dexterity bonuses to AC… Is that because the dex modifier is already included in the reflex save bonus (which adds to skill defense)? What happen if dex bonus to AC is limited by armor?
2)What about dodge bonuses to AC?
3)What happen if your wound point reaches 0 or lower (but you make your fortitude save)?
4)If you take wound damage from spells (like magic missile or area effect) do you then have to roll a fortitude save too (to see if you are dying) or can you not become dying from such attacks? (unless your reach 0 wound points?)
5)Are you aware that it will be very hard to do wound damage to large creatures with lots of wound points, high fortitude saves and lots of armor?
The modified fortitude save bonus of an adult red dragon will for example be +51! Any attack that do less than 20 damage will only damage it if it rolls a natural 1 on its fortitude save….
(do I need to mention that a great wyrm red dragon has a modified fortitude save bonus of +90!!)


I suggest that characters receive a -1 penalty to all saves for each 5 points their vitality goes negative. It would make sense, and it will allow a large amount of weak creatures to wear down a powerful creature enough that they can actually start to damage it when they hits is wound points. (also, unlike the other penalties this one should not have any limit to how negative it can go)

6) what about creatures which rely on natural weapons do they get to add their base attack bonus to shill defense?
7) I think you mentioned called shot somewhere… but you have not listed any rules for called shots…

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod
posted 08-11-10 10:19 PM EDT (US)     12 / 96  
I think I would like to play a young lizardman (if you will allow that) since lizardmen are ECL 3 even without any character classes, he would have to be weaker than a normal lizardmen I was thinking that he could have a single racial HD and one natural armor less than a normal lizardman. He could then pick up the last racial HD (along with the last point of natural armor) later.
I will consider this, but before I allow it I wish to resolve the following inconsistency that exists in the rules as they currently exist:

You demonstrated, some time ago, that an ECL 15 fire giant character (with items as appropriate) would be at least the equal of a 15th-level dwarven fighter. I do not doubt that this is true. However, at the same time, page 294 of the Monster Manual clearly states that the challenge rating of a monster with class levels is equal to its base challenge rating plus its levels of character classes, provided said classes combine well with the monster's inherent abilities. So, for example, according to the MM, a lizardman with one level of fighter should be CR 2, because a lizardman has a base CR of 1 and the fighter class combines well with being a lizardman. Yet, that same lizardman fighter would have an ECL of 4. Why should his CR and ECL not be equal, as they are for any normal PC?

(I can think of several possible ways to resolve this conundrum, but I would like to hear your suggestions)
Alternatively I would like to be an elf druid or perhaps a sorcerer with a nature path (and such pretty druid-like)
They're similar, although the Nature path does not include the elemental spells on the Druid's spell list like Produce Flame or Call Lightning, but it does include Charm Person and the like.
I've never played a cleric and think it might be interesting or, if Beren's good with it, a Favored Soul like the second character I made for Jade Warrior (essentially a spontaneous caster cleric).
This has the same question as was raised in my Zelda game, namely, whether the fact that the cleric is different also changes the Favored Soul. I can think of a couple of possible options:

Option 1. The Favored Soul, being Cleric-like, changes as the Cleric does. The Favored Soul would get domains (like the Cleric), and would have one spell per day from the Cleric list and all of the rest being related to domains, as with the themed sorcerer. However, the Favored Soul would not get domain powers because he doesn't get them already (unless my memory of the Favored Soul's abilities is totally wrong, of course).

Option 2. We change the Favored Soul to be a themed class like the Druid. In this case, only magical traditions that have the appropriate paths would be able to have Favored Souls, but the spell list and abilities would remain the same. The paths required would be both Astral and Nature, which the Hylar and Eluchish both have, but the Damarese and Lethdam do not (at least not in combination). We could of course create another nation/tradition if you want. Of course, knowing you, you would probably play an elf anyway.
1)you don’t mention dexterity bonuses to AC… Is that because the dex modifier is already included in the reflex save bonus (which adds to skill defense)? What happen if dex bonus to AC is limited by armor?
2)What about dodge bonuses to AC?
3)What happen if your wound point reaches 0 or lower (but you make your fortitude save)?
4)If you take wound damage from spells (like magic missile or area effect) do you then have to roll a fortitude save too (to see if you are dying) or can you not become dying from such attacks? (unless your reach 0 wound points?)
5)Are you aware that it will be very hard to do wound damage to large creatures with lots of wound points, high fortitude saves and lots of armor?
The modified fortitude save bonus of an adult red dragon will for example be +51! Any attack that do less than 20 damage will only damage it if it rolls a natural 1 on its fortitude save….
(do I need to mention that a great wyrm red dragon has a modified fortitude save bonus of +90!!)


I suggest that characters receive a -1 penalty to all saves for each 5 points their vitality goes negative. It would make sense, and it will allow a large amount of weak creatures to wear down a powerful creature enough that they can actually start to damage it when they hits is wound points. (also, unlike the other penalties this one should not have any limit to how negative it can go)

6) what about creatures which rely on natural weapons do they get to add their base attack bonus to shill defense?
7) I think you mentioned called shot somewhere… but you have not listed any rules for called shots…
Good questions!

1. I did indeed not mention Dex bonus because it is already included in the Reflex save bonus. Dex bonus is limited if limited by armor... not sure how to handle the question of reflex saves: does it only decrease your Skill Defense, or does it only decrease your save as well? Realistically, it should decrease your save, and I know that extremely skilled SCA fighters actually wear less armor in combat because the extra armor hampers their speed...

2. An oversight - it's part of Skill Defense. It's sort of in there already as misc. defense, but I'll explicitly add it now.

3. Disabled at 0, dying at -1, as per usual. I had assumed normal dying mechanics, with dead at -Constitution, but open to suggestions.

4. You can indeed become dying from Magic Missile or area effect spells - but you also get the reflex save to turn wound damage into vitality damage (and you add the bonus for having vitality to your save).

5. Interesting suggestion - the problem with it is that high-level characters and, in particular, highly agile characters are already made weaker by the new rules, since it's generally easy to hit a characters base AC even if you can't actually hit their AC (a level-20 monk with a 24 Dex and a 28 Wis would have a full AC of 53 before adding for his vitality, but his basic defense is still 10, unless he has deflection boni). This would make him even weaker, I think, relative to an armored fighter type. I'm curious as to how he could be benifitted relative to, say, a high-level cleric whose full AC is only 25, but has super-duper armor with which to take hits.

What I had been thinking is that given that the dragon's AC is dropping, you can go ahead and Power Attack and Aimed Attack to your heart's content and cause ludicrously more damage. But that's still not enough to overcome a +90 fort save! Maybe every time you get wounded but make your save so well that you take no damage you still get a cumulative -1 penalty to future fort saves against damage?


6. If your natural weapons are something you could block with (claws, horns, antlers...), then yes, you can use them. For most animals, I would consider them to be small weapons (for the size of the creature), though.

7. I did. I was assuming that it would work similarly with taking a called shot at an object. Aiming an arrow at the eyeslit in a knight's helmet for example might negate the fort save bonus from his armor, but would entail you shooting at a size F target (and with a circumstance penalty). Same thing goes for smashing the vial held in the wizard's hand, or scratching off one of the letters on a golem's forehead, or blinding the cyclops with a blob of ink (or, for that matter, a wooden stake).

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 08-12-10 09:42 AM EDT (US)     13 / 96  
So, for example, according to the MM, a lizardman with one level of fighter should be CR 2, because a lizardman has a base CR of 1 and the fighter class combines well with being a lizardman. Yet, that same lizardman fighter would have an ECL of 4. Why should his CR and ECL not be equal, as they are for any normal PC?
a lizardman with one level of fighter is CR 2 only if he is a NPC with NPC abilities and NPC equipment
As a full PC character with carefully planed PC abilities and level 4 PC equipment he is CR 4
Maybe every time you get wounded but make your save so well that you take no damage you still get a cumulative -1 penalty to future fort saves against damage?
That would work I think, but it might be difficult/troublesome to keep track on who has their save reduced in this way and how much…

It may be a good idea to do some combat tests to see hoe your rules are working.

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod
posted 08-12-10 10:13 PM EDT (US)     14 / 96  
a lizardman with one level of fighter is CR 2 only if he is a NPC with NPC abilities and NPC equipment
As a full PC character with carefully planed PC abilities and level 4 PC equipment he is CR 4
I see, so you could also play a character who was a lizardman with one level of fighter and, say, an 18-point buy and roughly 2nd-level equipment, and it might also be ECL 2. I guess the question is what in-game explanation would there be for your lizardman character getting an additional hit die and point of natural armor bonus when he levels? (I assume you were thinking that he was not fully grown, but would that mean he would need to somehow magically age to adulthood in order to make ECL 3?)
That would work I think, but it might be difficult/troublesome to keep track on who has their save reduced in this way and how much…

It may be a good idea to do some combat tests to see hoe your rules are working.
An alternative might be that getting wounded involves taking some minimum amount of damage.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 08-12-10 10:27 PM EDT (US)     15 / 96  
I made a human paladin. Are the deities the same as in 3.5, or are there special ones because this is in a special setting?

"'I quite agree with you,' said the Duchess; `and the moral of that is--"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."'"' --the Duchess from Alice in Wonderland
posted 08-13-10 03:11 PM EDT (US)     16 / 96  
I see, so you could also play a character who was a lizardman with one level of fighter and, say, an 18-point buy and roughly 2nd-level equipment, and it might also be ECL 2.
Yes, but I doubt many would actually what to play such a character as one of the reasons people want to play monster characters is that they can have higher ability scores.
I guess the question is what in-game explanation would there be for your lizardman character getting an additional hit die and point of natural armor bonus when he levels? (I assume you were thinking that he was not fully grown, but would that mean he would need to somehow magically age to adulthood in order to make ECL 3?)
I was mostly thinking of him as more or less fully grown and only needing a little more combat training (= the racial HD) His skin would not be fully as tough an other one of a fully adult but perhaps it would toughen by getting “used” (= the character getting wounded enough times)
Also I did not intend for him to get his last racial hit die on the first level up (but rather taking a level of ranger) and I am not sure exactly when, if ever, I am going to let him tale that last “level of Lizardman”…
An alternative might be that getting wounded involves taking some minimum amount of damage.
That could work as well, but it seems rather unrealistic…

I think I have a better idea. What about only allow a creature to negate an amount of damage equal to its armor boni? That would make sense, and would put an realistic limit on how much damage that can be prevented. This would also mean that called shot where the armor is bypassed will always do their full damage
Also I think that in case of critical hits where the threat roll is surpassing AC (the full AC not just the base AC) the first damage die should not be able to be negated no matter how high the fortitude save is.

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod
posted 08-13-10 06:02 PM EDT (US)     17 / 96  
So... BNC is playing a paladin, Kris is playing a ranger. One of my friends from the Fallout campaign said he would definitely take a look in here, especially at the mention of Pathfinder, but it's a bit strange that he hasn't posted in here yet.

Beren, I think I'd like to move ahead with the Favored Soul, which means I need a decision about how his spells are going to work. I would like whatever variant gives him the most flexibility of the spells I can choose. He's probably going to be human... I don't think elves are particularly well suited for melee (although Corim would argue the point), especially for heavily armored melee types.

Unless someone else is going to play a cleric or druid. If we have an alternative source of healing like that, I'm going to look back into monk.

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 08-14-10 01:30 PM EDT (US)     18 / 96  
First off, sorry for disappearing yesterday - house got hit by lightning, and it fried my internet cable. So I may be sporadic for a few more days...
I made a human paladin. Are the deities the same as in 3.5, or are there special ones because this is in a special setting?
Deities are not the same, but they are very varied. A lot of them, however, who could be the same god worshiped under a different name as many mythological deities. The Hylar chiefly worship the Three, which are three slighly modified versions of three of the Valier (in Tolkienian mythology), namely Varda, Yavanna, and Estë. Other peoples worship different gods.

Outside of Nidor, the religions practiced in the nearby kingdoms don't connect well with the core D&D pantheon; scheming priests engaging in unscrupulous activities to enhance the temporal power of their respective temples and dabbling in dark sorcery as well as priestly magic is more the norm rather than the exception (although there are exceptions).

For being a human paladin, you have a couple of options:

1. You could be one of the fairly small number of humans who came with the Hylar as they fled from the Kingdom of the North. Depending on how old you are, you probably were born in the Kingdom of the North, but your parents probably emigrated there from Martonok, being the land immediately west of the Kingdom of the North, before it fell. It is possible that you were in the parties of aventurers that aided the overthrow of the Damarese army in Nidor when Laramní and the priestess came and claimed it, although that was six years ago and you're only second level, so you might be too young for that, depending on how you make your character. In this case, however, you (probably) worship the Three.

2. You could also be from Damarin. You might or might not have been born or raised in Nidor and been exiled when the Hylar invaded, and later came back as an adventurer (or the campaign might also start somewhere other than Nidor, something else I'm ready to discuss). Being a returned exile in Nidor would mean that you're there as a temporary adventurer - you don't live there, and you would be watched. As for your god, it would be difficult to be a paladin in either Damarin or Eluchish without developing a cynical view of organized religion, and feel that only individuals really worship their gods - but the Hylar seem to be different, in any case.

3. You are someone from far away, perhaps an adventurer cut adrift when your old party died, abandoned you, or maybe you decided there were things to do here and decided to stay. You could worship just about anything, in this case.
Also I did not intend for him to get his last racial hit die on the first level up (but rather taking a level of ranger) and I am not sure exactly when, if ever, I am going to let him tale that last “level of Lizardman”…
In that case, I would think that the last point of natural armor be a "class ability" of the remaining "level" of lizardman. In any case, I'm looking forward to the character - as a lizardman, the obvious logical choice of a nation of origin is Eluchish.
I think I have a better idea. What about only allow a creature to negate an amount of damage equal to its armor boni? That would make sense, and would put an realistic limit on how much damage that can be prevented. This would also mean that called shot where the armor is bypassed will always do their full damage
Also I think that in case of critical hits where the threat roll is surpassing AC (the full AC not just the base AC) the first damage die should not be able to be negated no matter how high the fortitude save is.
I like this - let's do it.
Beren, I think I'd like to move ahead with the Favored Soul, which means I need a decision about how his spells are going to work. I would like whatever variant gives him the most flexibility of the spells I can choose. He's probably going to be human...
I really could go with either of the possibilities I mentioned. If we option that the favored soul is a themed spellcaster, you would have the cleric spell list to pick from. However, you would probably need to be either a Hyla or someone who worships their gods, unless you're from somewhere a long way away.

If the favored soul has an altered spell list, then what you would do is choose two clerical domains (but not get the domain powers), and your spell list would be anything from either the cleric, druid, or wizard spell lists provided that it could be convincingly tied to one of your two domains. So, for instance, if your domains were healing and water, you could cast spells that had something to do with healing, or something to do with water, no matter what spell list they came from, but you wouldn't be able to learn other cleric spells. You would also have to pick your domains mindful of the magical tradition you belonged to (see the last part of the section on magic in the Encyclopedia). For that combo, for instance, and being human, you would probably be looking at Eluchish as a place of origin.

Either way, I am largely undecided on what the favored soul should look like. If you strongly prefer one of these options, I'm not inclined to argue.


Incidentally, I had been thinking about creating a fighter, but I'll wait to see what you come up with (with a paladin and a ranger, you've got combat covered...).

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 08-14-10 03:33 PM EDT (US)     19 / 96  
As you can see below I have finished the game mechanics part of my character, now I just need a background (and a name)
I was actually thinking of him having been raised by Hylar elves. A couple where the female can’t get children on her own have found him as a small child and the only survivor in a village that had been comply destroyed by “the forces of darkness” of something like that…
(This would have happened before the Hylar came to Nidor)

I have noticed that with your rules, saves become very important, especially fortitude and reflex saves. I guess we are going to see a lot of characters with great fortitude and lightning reflexes…

Some more questions:

1) How is (magic)healing going to work? Do you heal Wounds first and then vitality?

2) How fast is vitality going to come back when not in combat?

3) Are dying characters going to lose 1 wound point in addition to the fortitude save they must make each round?

4) Will magic healing automatically stabilize a dying character? And what about stabilizing using the heal skill?

5) If a dying character with positive wound points become stabilized, will he be conscious and ready to fight again?

6) Are there not going to be any limit on how negative you can go on vitality?
Your level 20 monk could easily go down to -120 and still be in the fight…
I was thinking on something like -20 = you become fatigued, -40 you become exhausted, -80 you become unconscious

-------------

Young Lizardman (name undecided)

2 levels of lizardman monster class (1 HD)

Abilities:
Strength: 18 (+4) (10 points +2 race)
Dexterity: 14 (+2) (6 points)
Constitution: 16 (+3) (6 points +2 race)
Intelligence: 10 (-)(4 points -2 race)
Wisdom: 14 (+1) (6 points)
Charisma: 8 (-1)

Vitality: 8
Wound points: 23 (18 strength + 5 fortitude)
Base AC: 11 (10 +1 shield)
AC: 19 (11 +6 reflex +2 vitality)
Armor boni: 7 (4 natural +3 armor)

Saves:
Fortitude: +5 (+3 con +2 feat), against dying/death from wounds: +17 (5 +7 armor +5 wound points)
Reflex: +6 (+2 race +2 dex +2 feat), against magic/energy attacks: +8 (6 +2 vitality)
Will: +2 (+2 wis)

Feats:
Great fortitude (personality feat)
Lightning reflexes (level 1 feat)

Carrying capacity: Light load: 100 lb. or less, medium load: 101–200 lb, heavy load: 201–300 lb

Equipment:
Masterwork Morningstar (308 gp, 6 lb)
Masterwork studded leather (175 gp, 20 lb)
Masterwork Buckler (165 gp, 5 lb)
10 javelins (10 gp, 20 lb)
Sling (-)
20 sling bullets (2 gp, 10 lb)
3 potions of cure light wounds (150 gp)
1 potion of protection from evil (50 gp)

Backpack (2 gp, 2 lb)
Bedroll (1sp, 5 lb)
50 ft of hempen rope (1 gp, 10 lb)
Grappling hook (1 gp, 4 lb)
2 Sunrods (4 gp, 2 lb)
3 Torches (3 sp, 3 lb)
Waterskin (1gp, 4 lb)

30 gp

Base attack/grabble: +0/+4

Single attacks:
Masterwork Morningstar: +5 (1d8+4, x2)
Masterwork Morningstar (2-handed): +4 (1d8+6, x2)
Claw: +4 (1d4+4, x2)
Javelin: +2 (1d6+4, x2, 30 ft)
Sling: +2 (1d4+4, x2, 50 ft)

Full attacks:
Masterwork Morningstar: +5 (1d8+4, x2), bite -1 (1d4+2, x2)
Masterwork Morningstar: +5 (1d8+4, x2), bite -1 (1d4+2, x2), claw -2 (1d4+2, x2)
Masterwork Morningstar (2-handed): +4 (1d8+6, x2), bite -1 (1d4+2, x2)
Claw/claw/bite: +4/+3/-1 (1d4+4, x2/1d4+4, x2/1d4+2, x2)

Skills:
Trained in-class:
Athletics (Str): +12 (4 ranks +4 str +4 race*)
Acrobatics (Dex): +6 (4 ranks +2 dex) (+10 when balancing because of race bonus)

Trained cross-class:
Perception (Wis): +4 (2 ranks + 2 wis)
Stealth (Dex): +4 (2 ranks +2 dex)

Race features:

+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence.
Good reflex saves
+4 racial bonus on Balance, Jump, and Swim checks.
proficient with simple weapons and shields.
+4 natural armor bonus.
Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d4).
Special Qualities: Hold Breath: A lizardfolk can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to four times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

*Lizardfolk does not normally have a racial bonus to climb, but given their claws on hands and feet, I find it reasonable for them to have +4 to Athletics in general.

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod

[This message has been edited by Kris Lighthawk (edited 08-16-2010 @ 08:13 AM).]

posted 08-14-10 08:23 PM EDT (US)     20 / 96  
1) How is (magic)healing going to work? Do you heal Wounds first and then vitality?
Wounds are healed first. Magical healing of vitality heals at twice the rate of wounds.
2) How fast is vitality going to come back when not in combat?
Hmm... good question. Eight hours of rest should restore vitality, and a smaller portion of rest should do a proportional amount. The question is what happens when a person is not resting, but not engaging in strenuous activity. Maybe heals at half the rate of actual rest?
3) Are dying characters going to lose 1 wound point in addition to the fortitude save they must make each round?
I would suggest that if they are already negative, then yes, but not if they're positive. In fact, if they're dying because they're negative (and only because they're negative), then they might not need to roll the saves.
4) Will magic healing automatically stabilize a dying character? And what about stabilizing using the heal skill?
Yes and yes - although arguably the DC should be higher for the skill. I like your system in the Giant Trilogy of healing in addition with the skill check...
5) If a dying character with positive wound points become stabilized, will he be conscious and ready to fight again?
If magical healing, yes. If the skill, then no, he's still unconscious.
6) Are there not going to be any limit on how negative you can go on vitality?
Theoretically, no. However, remember that as you keep taking vitality damage your AC approaches your base AC. Eventually, it will become impossible to hit your base AC without hitting your AC as well and causing wound damage instead of vitality...


I agree with the bonus to climb, by the way.
I was actually thinking of him having been raised by Hylar elves. A couple where the female can’t get children on her own have found him as a small child and the only survivor in a village that had been comply destroyed by “the forces of darkness” of something like that…
(This would have happened before the Hylar came to Nidor)
Interesting idea.

The only problem is there would not have been very many lizardmen living in or near the Kingdom of the North (boreal forest and tundra = not a great place to be a lizardman). An option might be that your adoptive parents were among the scouts that Tiren sent south to look for a place for the Hylar to flee to. On the other hand, seeing the fall of the Kingdom of the North firsthand would be an experience for an adventurer to have, so I'm not going to say you can't be from there.

I'm going to be making a couple more entries to the encyclopedia concerning military and religion in the area around Nidor as well, and given the Hylar's reason for being in Nidor, it wouldn't make sense not to have sections for the Martonok and the Kingdom of the North (as well as the Enemy) as well...

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 08-14-10 11:46 PM EDT (US)     21 / 96  
Hi,
I am interested in playing a sorcerer with the Air or Astral path. Unfortunately it seems I am a little "unreliable", but I guess I could try?

I have a few questions though.

Are sorcerers still limited to their limited number of spells known/delayed casting progression?
Only having access to one or two paths weakens the sorcerer, as their main strength in standard 3.5 is the ability to pick the 2-3 "best" spells from each level and cast them over and over again. (Like: Color Spray, Silent Image, Grease; Invisibility, Web, Glitterdust; Haste, Fly, Fireball; Enervation, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door; Telekinesis, Wall of Stone, Magic Jar; Disintegrate, Greater Dispel Magic, Mass Suggestion; Greater Teleport, Reverse Gravity; Prismatic Wall, Polymorph Any Object; Time Stop, Shapechange)

The wizard on the other hand seems to be "forced" to take what is technically the better option, so they have higher level spells and more spells/day then the sorcerer on all odd levels in addition to more spells known. Banning two schools is probably less restrictive then choosing two paths.

As for the cleric, Trickery and Travel domains gets access to several iconic Sorc/Wiz spells (Invisibility, Fly, Dimension Door, Confusion, (Greater) Teleport, Polymorph Any Object, Time Stop...), Better HD and BAB, and
Ability to cast in armor and better saves. Not to mention that the cleric also has higher level and more spells/day then the sorcerer at odd levels.

Not to say that I think the sorcerer is weak, he just doesn't quite compare to any of the other full-casting classes. So giving him a slightly increased number of spells known or giving him access to new spell level add odd levels like the wizard and cleric would probably help a lot.


I will probably choose to play a human, but I am also interested in playing Aasimar if I get to play one without level adjustment. (I believe there is something call "lesser Aasimar")

I think this is all for now.
posted 08-15-10 01:46 AM EDT (US)     22 / 96  
Hi Rainbowdragon! Long time no see! Yes, you're welcome to hop in!

Actually, the sorcerer gets only one Path, but you don't seem to have noticed (at least in the spells you name) that that one Path can take spells from the Cleric and Druid spell lists as well as the Wizard spell list.

I agree, this probably does weaken the sorcerer, which in my opinion was weaker than it should be to begin with. I am open to suggestions on how to improve it - one simple solution would be of course to just shift the level at which the sorcerer gets new spells down by one, so that the sorcerer gets spells at odd levels like everybody else. I've also been toying with the idea of increasing the sorcerer's hit die. We could also increase the number of spells the sorcerer can know at any given level.

Also, I can think of a number of spells that you could design and add to the spell book that would make the sorcerer a lot better, but not help the wizard because the spells would mostly go onto the Druid spell list. I will also admit that some paths are stronger than others as it currently stands, or if not stronger than certainly more unique. For example, a Nature-path sorcerer would potentially have access to all of the druid's plant and animal spells, all of the stat-boosting buffs (many of them wizard-only at the moment), the best of the cleric's healing spells, and all of the cleric/wizard's charm spells (but not dominations). No other class in the game at present can sport that combination except maybe the Adept which is an NPC class and only goes up to level-five spells. However, I'm having a hard time thinking of very many spells that an Air-path sorcerer would have that aren't already on the wizard spell list and which would be useful to someone with the wizard spell list (I can think of Call Lightning, but considering how badly it got nerfed in 3.0 and then even worse in 3.5, I'd be tempted to just take Lightning Bolt and say to heck with it). Maybe Call Lightning should be made more like it was in Second Edition - devastatingly powerful, but useful only in very specific situations.

Again, I welcome suggestions.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign

[This message has been edited by Beren V (edited 08-15-2010 @ 01:46 AM).]

posted 08-15-10 07:29 AM EDT (US)     23 / 96  
The wizard on the other hand seems to be "forced" to take what is technically the better option, so they have higher level spells and more spells/day then the sorcerer on all odd levels in addition to more spells known
No class, not even specialist wizards or clerics ever have more spells/day than sorcerers:

Level, spells per day*: sorcerer, wizard/druid, specialist wizard/cleric
-- 1 ------------------------ 3 --------- 1 -------------------- 2
-- 2 ------------------------ 4 --------- 2 -------------------- 3
-- 3 ------------------------ 5 --------- 3 -------------------- 5
-- 4 ------------------------ 9 --------- 5 -------------------- 7
-- 5 ----------------------- 10 --------- 6 -------------------- 9
-- 6 ----------------------- 14 --------- 8 ------------------- 11
-- 7 ----------------------- 16 -------- 10 ------------------- 14
-- 8 ----------------------- 20 -------- 12 ------------------- 16
-- 9 ----------------------- 22 -------- 14 ------------------- 19
- 10 ----------------------- 26 -------- 16 ------------------- 21
- 15 ----------------------- 40 -------- 26 ------------------- 34
- 20 ----------------------- 54 -------- 36 ------------------- 45
* level 0 spells are not in these numbers but sorcerers have 2 more of those at any level.

I have never found sorcerers weak. Sure, they know only a few spells, but the ability to chose freely between the spells they do know as well as being able to cast more spells/day than everyone else makes up for it IMO. Wizards pretty much always end up preparing some spells that they can’t find any use for before their next rest. Because of their spontaneously casting clerics and druids seldom have that problem, but it is no secret that those classes are somewhat overpowered anyway…

If you want to make sorcerers more powerful in this setting (which might be necessary) I suggest one (or 2) of the following options:

1)a 1d6 HD and base attack as the cleric
2)allow the sorcerer to use light armor (like the bard)
3)know one more spell per level per day
4)Allow the sorcerer to use metamagic feats without using extra time to cast the spell (they could even quicken spells with this option)

Perhaps you could even make 2 kinds of sorcerers, a combat sorcerer (using option 1 and/or 2) and a generalist sorcerer (using option 3 and/or 4)

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod
posted 08-15-10 07:54 AM EDT (US)     24 / 96  
Beren, I'm going to go the themed spellcaster route. Having access to spells from wizard and druid would be cool, but then there's not really much of a difference between a cleric/favored soul and a wizard/sorcerer.

I'm still pretty set on being human, so I think I'll be from somewhere far away. From that perspective, I might intentially not read much of your Encyclopedia and come up with a backstory that explains why my character has come to the area.

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 08-15-10 08:21 AM EDT (US)     25 / 96  
I think I'm going to go the same route as toE, in terms of my human backstory.

I think I'll say we've heard about the recent unrest in Nidor in my country, and I've been sent on a quest to discover what is going on. Along the way, my entire group was killed, but as I was honor-bound to fulfil the quest, I continued alone, finally arriving wherever we are going to start at the beginning of the campaign.

"'I quite agree with you,' said the Duchess; `and the moral of that is--"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."'"' --the Duchess from Alice in Wonderland

[This message has been edited by BeNotConformed (edited 08-15-2010 @ 08:22 AM).]

posted 08-15-10 09:10 AM EDT (US)     26 / 96  
Hey Beren, I've hit a bit of a roadblock in character generation. Given the party's advanced number of melee combatants, I was thinking about taking my favored soul along the same path as Artaxerxes--by taking the feat Zen Archery and using ranged attacks with wisdom instead of dexterity. However, it looks like the feat has the prereq of having +1 base attack bonus, and since I take my feats at 1st level, I wouldn't qualify.

This would effectively mean that I would have to wait until next level to take the feat, and that means that the character would totally chance combat techniques with one level up--he'd go from being a negligible melee combat to an excellent ranged combatant.

So, basically, I'm asking if it's fine with you if I overlook that prereq and take Zen Archery at first level.

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 08-15-10 11:01 AM EDT (US)     27 / 96  
Kris Lighthawk,

There is one problem with your calculation, and that is that it doesn't take bonus spells from high ability score into account. I exaggerated a little when I said the specialist wizard had more spells/day on odd levels. The truth is that assuming both caster start with 16 in their casting stat, place their ability bonus every 4th level in their casting stat, and gain an item giving a +2 boost to their casting stat by level 7. The wizard will have 1 more spells/day at 3rd level, an equal number at level 5, and only 1 behind at level 7, 2 behind at 9.

Level-------Sorcerer-------Wizard/Cleric------Difference
1-------------4----------------3----------------(+1)
2-------------5----------------4----------------(+1)
3-------------6----------------7----------------(-1)
4------------11----------------9----------------(+2)
5------------12---------------12----------------(+0)
6------------17---------------14----------------(+3)
7------------19---------------18----------------(+1)
8------------25---------------21----------------(+4)
9------------27---------------25----------------(+2)
10-----------32---------------27----------------(+5)

It is also worth remembering that the specialist wizard
never has less spells/day of from the highest level.

Other then that I agree with you. The sorcerer isn't weak, and all of your suggestions for improving him seems fair to me. Though #4 (allowing metamagic without increased casting time) is probably useless in this campaign as it is low-level. Since Beren brought up Pathfinder, I could always add that they let sorcerer's choose a specific "bloodline" that gives bonus spells known to the sorcerer at odd levels (3, 5, 7, ..., 17, 19).

As for the wizard preparing wrong spells, yes that is the weakness of being a wizard. But if the sorcerer picks a wrong spell known, then he will have to wait 2 levels before he could change it. Making his highest level spell irrelevant. (Though I assume Beren is kind enough to tell me if one of my spells known will be useless. An example of a useless spell would be charm person if the party only interacts with animals, undead, aberrations, and so on)



I am personally most interested in a magic focused sorcerer so your idea of combining #3 and #4 seems nice to me.

The idea of giving letting the sorcerer gain spells at odd levels like everybody else is another possibility. I always found it a little weird that the sorcerer, who was born with a natural talent for magic and spends most of his time practicing magic. (he has only a few more weapon proficiencies then the wizard, and a smaller list of class skills. So logically the sorcerer should be practicing his magic, right?) Gains new levels at a slower rate then the rest.

The favored soul suffers from similar issues as the sorcerer. The favored soul gets more spells known and he gets them a little faster. But favored souls also have a slightly weird casting mechanic where spell DCs are based on wisdom and the rest of the casting is charisma based.


Anyway, Beren could you give me any more information on Aasimar?
Would I have to choose the version in the SRD? I am not sure if you would consider an Aasimar that loses the +2 bonus in wisdom, as well as the spell-like abilities and energy resistances would be balanced, as +2 charisma (and thus a net +2 in ability scores) is better then any of the core races. But having a spell progression 2 levels should be enough to speak for itself.


Edit:
Corrected the numbers in my table.

[This message has been edited by Rainbowdragon (edited 08-15-2010 @ 03:59 PM).]

posted 08-15-10 03:31 PM EDT (US)     28 / 96  
Rainbowdragon, you are right, I forgot that bonus spells would benefit the wizard more at odd levels (assuming high enough ability scores to get a bonus spell at the highest spell level) but your numbers are a little off as the sorcerer has one more spell/day at level 8 and 9. Here are the correct numbers:

Level-------Sorcerer-------Wizard/Cleric------Difference
1-------------4----------------3----------------(+1)
2-------------5----------------4----------------(+1)
3-------------6----------------7----------------(-1)
4------------11----------------9----------------(+2)
5------------12---------------12----------------(+0)
6------------17---------------14----------------(+3)
7------------19---------------18----------------(+1)
8------------25---------------21----------------(+4)
9------------27---------------25----------------(+2)
10-----------32---------------27----------------(+5)
15-----------51---------------36----------------(+5)
20-----------71---------------62----------------(+9)

I have also included level 15 and 20 which clearly shows that the sorcerer gets more and more ahead when we are getting into the high levels. I guess that the (specialist) wizard is more powerful at low levels while the sorcerer is more powerful at high levels…
It is also worth remembering that the specialist wizard
never has less spells/day of from the highest level.
True, except at level 20 where the sorcerer has one more level 9 spell than a specialist wizard

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod
posted 08-15-10 03:54 PM EDT (US)     29 / 96  
OK, here's my character sheet. Hopefully I didn't miss anything.


Name: Orion Tiberius Dale
Race: Human
Class: 2nd level Paladin
Character Level: 2nd
Character Languages: Common
Alignment: Lawful Good
Deity: Malatar (aka the Golden Father, the Great Lion)

Abilities
Strength: 16 (+3)
Dexterity: 10 (+0)
Constitution: 12 (+1)
Intelligence: 8 (-1)
Wisdom: 14 (+2)
Charisma: 16 (+3)

Vitality Points: 17 (2d10+2)
Wound Points: 23 (16 str + 7 fort)
Base AC: 12 (2 shield)
Skill Defense: 9 (2 base attack + 4 vitality + 3 reflex)
AC: 21 (12 base + 9 skill)

Saves
Fortitude: +7 (3 class + 3 cha + 1 con)
Reflex: +5 (0 class + 3 cha + 0 dex +2 feat)
Will: +5 (0 class + 3 cha + 2 wis)
Wound Save: +13 + ¼ remaining wound points (7 fort + 6 armor)

Feats
Lightning Reflex (personality feat)
Weapon Focus (longsword)
Power Attack

Equipment
Masterwork Banded Mail (6 AC, -5 check, 35 lb), Masterwork Longsword (4 lb), 3 javelins (2 lb each), heavy steel shield (15 lb, -2 check), Manacles with a simple (DC 20) lock (3lbs), bedroll (5lb), flint and steel, grappling hook (4 lb), clay mug (1lb), 50 feet of rope (5lbs), tent (10lbs), waterskin (1 lb), 4 sunrods (4lbs), ink/pen/parchment, sack (1/2 lb), iron pot (10 lbs), trail rations for 4 days (4lbs)

Gold: 84 gp

Attacks
Masterwork Longsword: +7 (3 str + 1 mwk + 2 base attack + 1 feat), 1d8+3 damage (3 str).
Javelin: +2 (2 base), 1d6+3 damage (3 str).

Skills
Sense Motive: +7 (3 trained + 2 level + 2 wis)
Diplomacy: +8 (3 trained + 2 level + 3 cha)
Heal: +7 (3 trained + 2 level + 2 wis)
Ride: -2 (3 trained + 2 level – 7 check)

Speed: 20 ft [4 squares]

Special Abilities
Race (Human):
None

Class (Paladin):
Aura of Good
Detect Evil at will, as the spell.
Smite Evil 1/day
Divine Grace
Lay on Hands

"'I quite agree with you,' said the Duchess; `and the moral of that is--"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."'"' --the Duchess from Alice in Wonderland
posted 08-15-10 05:03 PM EDT (US)     30 / 96  
Hopefully I didn't miss anything.
Well, with a intelligence modifier of -1 you would only have 3 trained skills..

Also, I am not sure if we get to add a full HD to our vitality for the first level… You have assumed that we do and I have assumed that we don’t… So Beren, who is right?

-----------

Also Beren I have looked over your last entry in the Encyclopedia of Nidor, and I must say that I find that you have given the soldier’s way too high ability scores. The elite archer for example would need 40 points in the point-buy system that we use to get those scores! (and we only get 32 points) That’s insane!
Even the commoners have a good deal above average scores, far better than they should have IMO

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod

[This message has been edited by Kris Lighthawk (edited 08-15-2010 @ 09:36 PM).]

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