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Topic Subject: Quest of the Wind OOC
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posted 02-04-12 08:14 PM EDT (US)   
This is the OOC thread for the Quest of the Wind role-play. You may post in-character immediately in the prologue, but you need to have a character sheet approved before you can post in the IC thread (the IC thread is not up yet. Introduce your character in the prologue thread).


You may choose a class from either D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder for this role-play. All rules will be assumed to be the same except for a revamping of the magic system, plus a few additions.

Starting level: 9

Ability scores: 36-point buy, but of those at least 12 must be spent on physical scores (Str, Dex, Con), and at least 12 on mental scores (Int, Wis, Cha).

All Content: We will be using 3.5 or Pathfinder at your convenience. Feats will be granted at the Pathfinder rate. You may use any core content, as well as any non-core content that I approve (core content is assumed to be pre-approved). Currently approved content includes:
-Classes: Elemental priest (see adaptation thread), Scout, Duskblade, Spirit Shaman, Favored Soul, Oracle (but see magic system).
-Feats: Skirmish, Improved Skirmish, Agile Athlete, Fit and Healthy (see Staff of the Emerald Enclave thread), also Spell Mastery


Class Changes: Apart from changes to magic, the following affects all classes: any class with fewer than 4 + Int skill points per level (e.g. Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard) instead gets 4 + Int skill points per level.

Magic System: We will be using a mana system, which I will describe below in an edit to this post. Highlights include:
--Characters will have a caster level, which is the sum of caster levels from all classes that provide caster levels. Caster levels from multiple classes stack.
--Each class will have a mana pool, the size of which is determined by the character's caster level, class level, and relevant ability score. All classes can have mana pools, but because not all classes provide caster levels, a character must have levels in a magic-using class in order for her ordinarily nonmagical classes to have mana pools.

Feat rule changes: Each character begins with one personality feat which is in addition to all of their normal feats. This personality feat represents some inherent distinguishing capability of the character, not a learned skill. Thus, any of the focus feats are not applicable, but feats that inherently benefit saves, allow ability score substitution, augment hit points, etc. are perfect.


New Actions: A kill shot is a new action. See below.

*

The Magic System

Caster level - All characters or creatures have a caster level, which may be zero. Your caster level is determined by the sums of levels of your classes, as follows:
Cleric, Druid, Elemental Priest, Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Spirit Shaman, Wizard - equal to level
Bard, Duskblade - equal to 3/4 of your level
Monk†, Paladin, Ranger - equal to 1/2 of your level
Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Scout - equal to 1/4 of your level*
†Monks in Pathfinder do not get mana pools. Their ki pool is already their mana pool.
*Only if you have a level of a class with a higher rate (i.e. a 20th-level fighter has a caster level of 0, whereas a character with 16 levels of fighter and 1 of wizard has a caster level of 5).

Mana pool - All classes have a mana pool for each character. Each mana pool is specific to the class as well as the character. A character's mana pool for any given class* is equal to caster level x (class level + relevant ability modifier). Each class has its own relevant ability modifier, as follows:
Duskblade, Fighter, Rogue, Scout, and Wizard all use Intelligence as their relevant ability score
Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Elemental Priest, Monk†, Paladin, Ranger, all use Wisdom as their relevant ability score.
Bard, Favored Soul, and Sorcerer all use Charisma as their relevant ability score.
*Bards, Favored Souls, and Sorcerers all get double their mana pools.
†3.5 Monks only

Spells - Each class has its own unique spell list, which embodies the theme of the class. All spell lists go up through 9th-level spells. Spell progression tables for spells prepared/known follow class level, but see notes below for each class as spell progression tables below, and also see the feat Spell Mastery, below. Spells cost mana equal to the square of the spell's level. Spells and spell-lists follow the following conventions:
-Classes with intelligence-based spell casting cast arcane spells, and must prepare spells from a limited number of spells that they know. Learning spells follows the same rules as those for wizards under normal circumstances, and all classes with intelligence-based spells use the wizard spell progression table for prepared spells (based on caster level). If a prepared spell is cast, it is not expended; a caster may cast a spell she has prepared as many times as she likes until she runs out of components or mana. Fighters have the special ability that fighter spells have their arcane spell failure chance reduced by 5% per level of the fighter, to a minimum of 0%. Additionally, Scouts cast all their spells silently, without need of the Silent Spell feat.
-Classes with wisdom-based spell casting cast divine spells, and are considered to "know" all spells of their level, but can still only prepare spells based on their spell-progression table, which is the same as that of the cleric. If the caster has priestly domains, as clerics and elemental priests do, then these domains each have separate mana pools equal in size to 1/4 the mana pool size that the priest would normally have, but otherwise behave in the same way. Monk spells and the spells of some elemental priests are subject to divine spell failure, which works exactly the same as arcane spell failure but afflicts them as divine spellcasters.
-Classes with charisma-based spell casting cast arcane spells with the exception of the Favored Soul, which casts divine spells. These classes have a limited number of spells that they can know at each level, period, which uses the same progression as that of the Sorcerer.

Spell lists - Each class has its own unique spell list. There is not enough room here to list every spell of every class, but players should understand that I use the following guidelines when allowing or not allowing spells:
Barbarian - Barbarians have access to spells that enhance athletic performance, as well as spells that deal with animals in some way, including symbolically (e.g. Eagle's Speandor, since eagles are animals, and represents an appropriate shamanic totem).
Bard - The Bard spell list is essentially unchanged in theme, including healing, misdirection, beguiling, and sound-based magic, except that it now extends to 9th-level.
Cleric - Elemental spells that have little or no general religious significance such as Sound Burst, Sky Swim and the like are removed. It does not matter if a cleric's specific deity is a deity of music, the sky, etc. This is what domains are supposed to be fore (or elemental priests).
Druid - Unchanged
Duskblade - The Duskblade spell list is unchanged, except that it is extended to 9th-level. Duskblade spells include short-range targeted attack spells and touch attack spells - the sort of spells that could be cast together with a melee attack.
Elemental Priest - Elemental priests choose an element from the following list upon gaining their first level of elemental priest. Choices are Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Light, Darkness, Death, and Wood/Flesh. Every six class levels, an elemental priest can add another element, but her maximum spell level in each new element is one lower than all of her previous elements (e.g. at 18th level, an elemental priest would cast 9th-level spells of her first element, 8-th level of her second, 7th-level of her third, and 6th-level of her fourth). Fire includes anything having to do with heat and burning emotions (anger, lust). Air includes gasses, electricity, and illusions. Water includes spells having to do with aquatic creatures of any kind. Earth includes anything having to do with metal, or most spells dealing with objects. Light includes figment-type illusions, judgement-based magic, good-aligned magic, and also includes electricity. Darkness includes most non-illusion deception magic (e.g. mind-affecting enchantments) but does include Invisibility spells, evil-aligned spells, and corrupting spells. Wood/Flesh includes anything having to do with athletic buffs, animals, or plants. Death has anything to do with life energy and, of course, undead. All eight elements have some access to healing spells, usually along the lines of the Druid, but Wood/Flesh and Death have Cleric-like healing powers.
Favored Soul - Favored Souls generally cast cleric spells, but potentially should have some additional judgement-related spells, such as the Druid's Call Lightning.
Fighter - Fighter spells include any arcane combat magic, be it attack spells, combat buffs, or combat shielding.
Monk - Monk spells include all athletic enhancements. In addition, all monks must choose an element when they gain the ability to cast magic; options include Fire, Wind, Water, Metal, and Wood (yes, five - read your Chinese philosophy). Monks generally get the same powers that Elemental Priests of the corresponding element do.
Paladin - The Paladin spell list is essentially unchanged except that it goes up to 9th-level. Paladin spells heal, protect, deliver holy justice, and seek out and identify evil.
Ranger - The Ranger spell list is essentially unchanged except that it goes up to 9th-level. Ranger spells deal with animals, plants, include (very) limited access to healing, and a few alchemical-type spells that take place in nature.
Rogue - Rogue spells enable stealth, beguiling, and targeted attacks and assassinations (but not area attacks).
Scout - Scout spells deal with stealth, observation, mobility, and targeted attacks.
Sorcerer - Unchanged
Spirit Shaman - Unchanged
Wizard - Wizards must choose a focal school. Wizards cannot cast spells of their maximum spell level except from their focal schools.


Feat: Spell Mastery
Benefit: You may add +1 to the class level when using the spell progression table for any of your classes.
Special: If this bonus makes your class level higher than your caster level, then your caster level will be the limiting factor.
Note: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it, you add an additional +1 to class level when using the spell progression table for any of your classes. If this makes your class level higher than your caster level, your caster level remains the limiting factor.

*

Death and Dying rules changes

Death limit - your character dies when her hit points reach the negative of her Constitution score, not -10.

Clinical Death - if you die by any effect that does not include the [death] descriptor (including having your hit points run too negative), then you are clinically dead. You are dead, but your soul has not left your body. This means that divine magic, especially healing magic, treats you as if you were still alive (albeit dying), just with negative hit points. You remain clinically dead for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma score, at which point your soul departs and you become truly dead. You continue to lose hit points at a rate of one/round while clinically dead. If you die but your hit points are positive (as by the effects of Phantasmal Killer or a Kill Shot action), then your hit points are reduced to -1. If you receive any magical healing while clinically dead and your hit points are less negative than your Constitution score after the healing takes place, then you are restored to life. This restoration does not count as a resurrection as far as destiny or level loss is concerned; you just never were (quite) dead.

Resurrection and destiny - Your character has a role in destiny called a thread, which represents what your character is supposed to be able to do with her life, or try to do. If your character is particularly important in destiny, then she may have multiple threads, or she may have partial threads that aren't quite real and yet aren't quite nonexistent. When she dies, her one or more of her threads are cut, depending on what she was doing and what her threads are associated with. If all of your character's threads are cut, then she cannot be resurrected by any means. She is dead, forever. This is usually what happens when a character dies of old age. If at least one of your character's threads are intact, then your character can be resurrected by any of the raise/resurrection spells without material cost or loss of hit die or experience level, although other side effects and conditions still apply (need to find a priest able and willing to cast a spell of that level, you can't currently be undead, etc.). If all of your remaining threads are damaged but not severed, then the normal resurrection rules, including costs and side effects, apply.

In general, legendary heroes or people destined to be such have many threads of which all can be severed at the destined time, ordinary people have just one, and semi-heroic or heroic-but-not-legendary people usually have a small number of difficult-to-sever-all-at-once threads. Major NPCs and legendary PCs usually fit into the first category, and most other PCs fit into the third. As an example of how this works, the destiny of Aimienna in the IC thread is to face the challenges of the Wind Temple. If she dies while doing so, then that was her destiny and all her threads are cut. Otherwise, only one of her several threads, the one connected to the mission she is on, is cut if she is killed. The reason why she must eventually go to the Wind Temple is because if she chooses not to, then she would be casting aside her destiny, and now has only her one thread. You should consult with the DM what your character's destiny may be, or else accept that you will fit into the semi-heroic category and use the normal resurrection rules provided that your quest does not fail utterly.

*

New Actions

Kill Shot
You attempt to make a lethal attack against a target, using your knowledge of the target's anatomy.

Making a kill shot is a standard action. When you declare a kill shot, you first declare the part of the body you are aiming for. The DM may impose modifiers or declare that it is impossible if you cannot locate or do not have line of sight to the targeted organ (knowledge [nature] generally covers anatomy, but so do specific knowledges, as knowledge [local] does for humanoids). If you fail to locate the target organ, you still take the kill shot action, but your attack is considered a regular attack, with no chance of an instant kill.

If you make a kill shot against a target during a surprise round, or if the target does not know that you are there, then you immediately make your attack roll normally. Otherwise, the target gets a Reflex save. If the target is flat-footed but not surprised (i.e. the target knows about you and that you are a threat but hasn't acted yet), then the DC is 10 + your base attack bonus. If the target is not flat-footed, then the DC is 5 + your base attack bonus. If the target makes the save, then you do not get to attack; you spend your action drawing a bead on the target, but not tracking well enough to confidently fire.

If the target fails its save, or does not get a save because it is surprised, then you make an attack roll, but this roll is penalized due to the smaller size of the organ you are targeting and, potentially for natural armor or other factors as well (a vaguely humanoid creature's rib cage or skull offers a +2 natural armor bonus to AC in addition to any other armor, natural or otherwise, they may have). If you hit, you not only automatically threaten critical, but then the target must make a Fortitude save against a DC of 10 + the damage dealt or die. If you would have normally threatened critical, you automatically confirm. If you hit the target, but not by the margin required to make a kill shot, then the DM may determine that you made a normal hit (e.g. you aimed for the heart and failed to penetrate the breastbone, but you did hit the chest), causing you to roll damage normally with no death chance. Death by kill shot is clinical death.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign

[This message has been edited by Beren V (edited 02-15-2012 @ 08:37 PM).]

Replies:
posted 02-05-12 06:15 AM EDT (US)     1 / 167  
I think I am going to play a dwarf cleric or perhaps an elemental priest

It doesn’t really matter to me what level we are starting at…

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod

[This message has been edited by Kris Lighthawk (edited 02-05-2012 @ 06:16 AM).]

posted 02-05-12 09:34 AM EDT (US)     2 / 167  
Sounds interesting enough, but doesn't everyone having a full 9-level spell progression make classes that otherwise wouldn't much stronger? I mean, a ranger with 9th-level spells is going to have everything the ranger had before plus a bunch of new spells, whereas the cleric doesn't really gain anything.

I'm going to play a melee-type this time, but what exactly I'm going to play depends on our level. If we're high enough (say, 9th or 10th level), I'm interested in playing a multiclass factotum/swashbuckler. I can explain these to you or send you excerpts from the books so that you can review/approve them, but basically he'd be a intelligence/dexterity-based melee combatant that is a jack of all trades when it comes to skills and has the ability to mimic class features of others, including (in a limited fashion) turning undead, healing his companions, temporarily boosting his attack or damage, and even casting a couple basic spells.

If we're lower level, I might play a fighter/rogue multiclass that wields a two-handed sword and emphasizes damage. Or perhaps a ranger to try out that spellcasting system, but not one that uses a bow (I'm playing plenty of archers already ).

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 02-05-12 11:43 AM EDT (US)     3 / 167  
I think I am going to play a human [Fey] sorcerer, focusing on debuffing and some control. I would also be interested in taking some of the Eldritch Heritage feats, most likely for the arcane bloodline so that I can get a familiar. I think my preferred level for this character would be 7+ (so I can grab improved familiar for a faerie dragon). Also, since I am most familiar with the pathfinder rules/spells, I am assuming we are using those unless otherwise specified.

The magic system seems interesting, I assume that spells will cost (spell level)^2 to cast as the number of spells per day for sorcerers will only be slightly higher than normal (at least at the mid levels where I calculated it). I do not think giving 9th level spells to everyone as long as the classes that usually don't get 9th level spells learn "weaker" spells than the full casters.

As for ability scores, how about forcing 1/3 of the points in physical, 1/3 in mental and let the last 1/3 be free?
posted 02-05-12 12:22 PM EDT (US)     4 / 167  
Which adventures are you most interested in? That might influence class choice.
I'm interested in playing a multiclass factotum/swashbuckler
I have access to the Complete Warrior, so I have the swashbuckler, which looks fine. I don't have the factotum, though.

I'm going to say that the swashbuckler spell list is going to resemble a cross between the fighter and rogue spell lists, if it matters to you (unless you take levels of something that will give you a caster level, then it won't). Swashbuckler spellcasting is probably intelligence-based and otherwise wizard-like.
I mean, a ranger with 9th-level spells is going to have everything the ranger had before plus a bunch of new spells, whereas the cleric doesn't really gain anything.
Well, sort of - actually I have a hard time seeing how to actually get a ranger casting 9th-level spells without being higher than 20th level.

A 20th-level ranger would have a caster level of 10, because rangers get a caster level equal to one half of their class level. This means that he would be casting 5th-level spells, which is higher than what he currently can do, but not a whole lot higher.

A character with ten levels of ranger and ten levels of druid would have a caster level of 15, which means that he could cast 8th-level spells for both classes, although with a smaller mana pool for each.

I don't think it's possible for a character of less than 20th character level to cast 9th-level ranger spells. If you had 15 levels of druid and only five of ranger, then your caster level would be 17, which is barely enough to cast 9th-level spells, which you could do as a druid. However, your maximum spell level is capped at your class level, so you would be still limited to 5th-level spells for a ranger.

By my calculations, in order to cast 9th-level spells as a ranger, you would want nine levels of ranger and 13 of druid, which would make you a 22nd-level character.
I think I am going to play a human [Fey] sorcerer, focusing on debuffing and some control. I would also be interested in taking some of the Eldritch Heritage feats, most likely for the arcane bloodline so that I can get a familiar. I think my preferred level for this character would be 7+ (so I can grab improved familiar for a faerie dragon).
Cool! I love the bloodlines and other flavoring that goes into the spellcasters in Pathfinder (flavoring that actually means something in terms of gameplay!). What will your second bloodline be?

As for classes, as I think I said, we will use Pathfinder or 3.5, except as adjusted above.
The magic system seems interesting, I assume that spells will cost (spell level)^2 to cast as the number of spells per day for sorcerers will only be slightly higher than normal (at least at the mid levels where I calculated it).
Gah, I can't believe I forgot that.
I do not think giving 9th level spells to everyone as long as the classes that usually don't get 9th level spells learn "weaker" spells than the full casters.
As illustrated above with the ranger/druid example, you have to engage in heavy-duty multi-classing to get even reasonably high-level spells on an otherwise non-spellcasting class, at which point you would be making other sacrifices due to the multi-classing itself. Notice, for example, that a 20th-level fighter with no other classes would have no caster level, and therefore no mana pool, and therefore cannot use magic.
As for ability scores, how about forcing 1/3 of the points in physical, 1/3 in mental and let the last 1/3 be free?
I am considering this, too.

I am concerned about certain abuses, which is why I want to limit point buys in certain areas. But, if we used, say, a 36-point buy, then you would be limited to 24 points in either physical/mental stats, which is not overpowered. If we used a 42-point buy, then that would be 28 points in one or the other in a 1/3 free system, which is a little high (it would be 21 in a non-free system, which if anything is still a little low).

What do you think?

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign

[This message has been edited by Beren V (edited 02-05-2012 @ 12:47 PM).]

posted 02-05-12 01:58 PM EDT (US)     5 / 167  
A 20th-level ranger would have a caster level of 10, because rangers get a caster level equal to one half of their class level. This means that he would be casting 5th-level spells, which is higher than what he currently can do, but not a whole lot higher.

A character with ten levels of ranger and ten levels of druid would have a caster level of 15, which means that he could cast 8th-level spells for both classes, although with a smaller mana pool for each.

I don't think it's possible for a character of less than 20th character level to cast 9th-level ranger spells. If you had 15 levels of druid and only five of ranger, then your caster level would be 17, which is barely enough to cast 9th-level spells, which you could do as a druid. However, your maximum spell level is capped at your class level, so you would be still limited to 5th-level spells for a ranger.
I see, that makes a lot more sense. I think I might change the character into a 50/50 split between Sorcerer and Oracle then. A sorcerer 4/oracle 4 character would have the spells known of an 8th level sorcerer and an 8th level oracle (minus bonus spells gained from class features), right? I think this would be more powerful than a straight sorcerer or oracle, though the boost is mostly the fact that I would know more spells. Actually, due to the nature of the split mana pool, the sorcerer/oracle combination is probably the only one where multiclassing is clearly stronger.

My second bloodline would be most likely be arcane, so that I can get a familiar. I do like the image of a priestess casting lots of different (fey) magic with a faerie dragon on her shoulder.
I am considering this, too.

I am concerned about certain abuses, which is why I want to limit point buys in certain areas. But, if we used, say, a 36-point buy, then you would be limited to 24 points in either physical/mental stats, which is not overpowered. If we used a 42-point buy, then that would be 28 points in one or the other in a 1/3 free system, which is a little high (it would be 21 in a non-free system, which if anything is still a little low).
42-point buy is very high, I would suggest using 32 or 36 points. But with the 42-point buy, you could always go with something in between like 16 in physical/mental, and 10 free.
posted 02-05-12 11:54 PM EDT (US)     6 / 167  
I'm looking at the Oracle now. I get the impression that it amounts to Pathfinder's counterpart to 3.5's Favored Soul.

For flavor reasons regarding what an oracle is (namely, a priest that presents prophecies made by her deity, but not in a religion-founding sense), I would suggest that the Oracle spell list differ slightly from the Cleric list, specifically in having more divination and less healing. Just a thought - I leave it up to you. We will have to come to some kind of an idea of what deity you serve, though (it will have to be something more specific than the "many sources" that the link you provided says).

Oracle is approved.
A sorcerer 4/oracle 4 character would have the spells known of an 8th level sorcerer and an 8th level oracle (minus bonus spells gained from class features), right? I think this would be more powerful than a straight sorcerer or oracle, though the boost is mostly the fact that I would know more spells. Actually, due to the nature of the split mana pool, the sorcerer/oracle combination is probably the only one where multiclassing is clearly stronger.
Correct, but keep in mind that you will have two separate mana pools, a sorcerer mana pool for casting sorcerer spells, and an oracle mana pool for casting oracle spells, and never the twain shall meet.
42-point buy is very high, I would suggest using 32 or 36 points. But with the 42-point buy, you could always go with something in between like 16 in physical/mental, and 10 free.
It depends I think on how the points are split. If we go with two pools, one for physical and one for mental, I would suggest a larger number (at least 36) so that archetypes dedicated to something that relies heavily on either physical or mental scores will have enough points, but if we use your suggestion of a third, entirely free, pool, then the total number of points doesn't need to be so high.

Part of the reason I suggest 42 is that for flavor reasons Aimienna needs ability scores that cover a very high point-buy, although not spent in the most efficient way possible. She's also an NPC, of course, but since she might still be a party member (to be determined as the PCs themselves see fit), I don't want to make her so powerful that she eclipses the real PCs.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 02-06-12 02:35 PM EDT (US)     7 / 167  
What races are acceptable for this campaign? Are any of the wild races available (like Killoren or Raptoran)?

"'I quite agree with you,' said the Duchess; `and the moral of that is--"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."'"' --the Duchess from Alice in Wonderland
posted 02-06-12 05:22 PM EDT (US)     8 / 167  
What races are acceptable for this campaign? Are any of the wild races available (like Killoren or Raptoran)?
Allowed without question: Humans, Elves, half-elves, Dwarves, Halflings

Allowed with minor reservations: Gnomes, Orcs, half-orcs, Goblinoids, Kobolds, Lizardmen, humanoid-outsider hybrids, humanoid-fey hybrids

Allowable with major reservations/discussion: Goliaths, Gnolls, outsiders, humanoid-dragon hybrids

Dissallowed: hybrids of dwarves with anything else (except gnomes), human-lizardman hybrids, giants (other than Goliaths), aberrations, evil outsiders


"Reservations" mean that you need a backstory that cleanly fits you into the setting and scenario, and the more major the reservations, the more detailed or restrictive this backstory will need to be (for example, if you are a Goliath, then you will need to be from the city about to be besieged, and you would need to have either been converted by one of the Hylarin priestesses or otherwise demonstrated your willingness to side with the Hylar aforetime).

*

Raptorians, for setting reasons, have to be generally disallowed, although I would allow a special exception if you take the Statue of the Desert Goddess mission. I would want your Raptorian to be even more bird-like than shown in the Races of the Wild (e.g. you'ld have a bird-like beak on your face). If you create a raptorian, then you also would be joining the party later, not in the tent meeting to begin with. If you wish to create a Raptorian, I would prefer you to make a more normal character as well, and play them both.

I don't really know what Killoreans are. That one elf played on in his semi-brief role-play, during which I came to the understanding that they are a type of fey, humanoid enough that they can pass themselves off as elves. I need to know more about them before I allow them.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 02-07-12 08:54 AM EDT (US)     9 / 167  
It's okay, I don't actually want to be a Killoren, I was just asking for clarification purposes. Race really matters to me when developing a character, so I wanted to know what the restrictions were.

"'I quite agree with you,' said the Duchess; `and the moral of that is--"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."'"' --the Duchess from Alice in Wonderland
posted 02-07-12 05:21 PM EDT (US)     10 / 167  
All right - the short answer is that essentially anything is allowable so long as it fits or can be made to fit within the story and the setting, but apart from the core races, integrating a character into the game may pose varying levels of challenge.

Of course, the rule/philosophy about non-core classes also goes for races and everything else: if I the GM do not know what it is and what it does, then it's not allowed until I do know about it and can plan for it accordingly. Of course, I'm happy to learn about something I don't yet know about, which will enable you to play it unless I decide it's either brokenly unbalanced or crushes the plot (I will not, for example, allow a Vow of Poverty character, because I don't think it fits with the world view that the already established protagonists have).


I think, though, that I'm going to say "no" on Raptorians for the time being. This is because I already have plans for a race something like, and including a PC of that race potentially screws with those plans.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 02-07-12 06:59 PM EDT (US)     11 / 167  
Beren, I haven’t really had time to discuss this before now, but I think your magic system needs some adjustments. The current setup makes multiclassed spellcasters far better than single class spellcasters…

Take for example a pure level 10 cleric with 20 wisdom, he will have 10x(10+5)=150 mana points
Now take a level 5 cleric/5 druid. Not only will he be able to prepare all the same spells as both a level 10 cleric and a level 10 druid, as well as cast them with the same power, but he also have more mana points overall (10x(5+5)= 100 cleric points and 10x(5+5)= 100 druid points) That hardly seems fair… Who would want to be a single class caster?

I would like to suggest the following:
Class level in the relevant class rather than caster level will limit how high you can go on the spell progression table. If however you caster level is lower than your class level, then the caster level become the limiting factor.
This way single class casters can prepare/know higher level spells than multiclassed while the multiclass casters have more mana overall.

In order to not have the multiclassed classes fall too much behind in maximum spell level I also suggest the following feats:

Spell Mastery
Prerequisite: Caster level 4
Benefit: You may add +1 to the class level when using the spell progression table for any of your classes.
Special: If this bonus makes your class level higher than your caster level, then your caster level will be the limiting factor.

Improved Spell Mastery
Prerequisite: Caster level 8, Spell Mastery
Benefit: You may add +1 to the class level when using the spell progression table for any of your classes (this bonus stacks with the one from Spell Mastery).
Special: If this bonus makes your class level higher than your caster level, then your caster level will be the limiting factor.

Greater Spell Mastery
Prerequisite: Caster level 12, Spell Mastery, Improved Spell Mastery
Benefit: You may add +1 to the class level when using the spell progression table for any of your classes (this bonus stacks with the one from Spell Mastery and the one from Improved Spell Mastery).
Special: If this bonus makes your class level higher than your caster level, then your caster level will be the limiting factor.

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod
posted 02-07-12 08:17 PM EDT (US)     12 / 167  
Beren, I haven’t really had time to discuss this before now, but I think your magic system needs some adjustments. The current setup makes multiclassed spellcasters far better than single class spellcasters…
This is undeniably true and I realized this from the beginning - I had thought that the balancing factor would be the additional abilities that spellcasting classes get, especially in Pathfinder (for example, sorcerer blood line powers improve with class level, not caster level). If you believe this is not enough, though, I am happy to discuss it.


Unfortunately, giving multi class spellcasters access to higher-level spells is arguably part of the point, so if we do that, then your Spell Mastery feats need to be improved so that they allow a seriously multiclass character the ability to do that. For this reason, combined with the larger number of feats that PCs get in Pathfinder, I suggest Spell Mastery to be changed to the following:

Spell Mastery
Benefit: You may add +1 to the class level when using the spell progression table for any of your classes.
Special: If this bonus makes your class level higher than your caster level, then your caster level will be the limiting factor.
Note: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it, you add an additional +1 to class level when using the spell progression table for any of your classes. If this makes your class level higher than your caster level, your caster level remains the limiting factor.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 02-07-12 08:57 PM EDT (US)     13 / 167  
Well, that’s a fair compromise… If we can agree on that you will hear no more protests from me

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod
posted 02-07-12 09:59 PM EDT (US)     14 / 167  
Edited. I might also want to include some other ways that bring your effective class level up as well, though (e.g. magic items that boost your effective class level but not your caster level).


I'm hoping to get some IC discussion soon.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 02-08-12 04:09 AM EDT (US)     15 / 167  
Classes with charisma-based spell casting cast arcane spells with the exception of the Favored Soul, which casts divine spells. These classes have a limited number of spells that they can know at each level, period, which uses the same progression as that of the Sorcerer.
For flavor reasons regarding what an oracle is (namely, a priest that presents prophecies made by her deity, but not in a religion-founding sense), I would suggest that the Oracle spell list differ slightly from the Cleric list, specifically in having more divination and less healing. Just a thought - I leave it up to you. We will have to come to some kind of an idea of what deity you serve, though (it will have to be something more specific than the "many sources" that the link you provided says).
In addition to the spells gained by oracles as they gain levels, each oracle also adds all of either the cure spells or the inflict spells to her list of spells known (cure spells include all spells with “cure” in the name, inflict spells include all spells with “inflict” in the name). These spells are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them. This choice is made when the oracle gains her first level and cannot be changed.
This means that the Oracle does not get any cure spells for free, right?
Take for example a pure level 10 cleric with 20 wisdom, he will have 10x(10+5)=150 mana points
Now take a level 5 cleric/5 druid. Not only will he be able to prepare all the same spells as both a level 10 cleric and a level 10 druid, as well as cast them with the same power, but he also have more mana points overall (10x(5+5)= 100 cleric points and 10x(5+5)= 100 druid points) That hardly seems fair… Who would want to be a single class caster?

I would like to suggest the following:
Class level in the relevant class rather than caster level will limit how high you can go on the spell progression table. If however you caster level is lower than your class level, then the caster level become the limiting factor.
This way single class casters can prepare/know higher level spells than multiclassed while the multiclass casters have more mana overall.
I agree that the mana pool was broken, and creating a balanced system from multiclassing spellcasters is difficult due to the nature of spells becoming much more powerful with each spell level. I think we have two possible answers however. We can either go for Lighthawk's solution, which means that a prestige class like Mystic Theurge is the only way to make a multiclass spellcaster work. The other possibility is to change the mana pool equation to class level x (caster level + relevant ability modifier).

With this change to the mana equation, the level 5 cleric/5 druid with 20 wisdom would have 5x(10+5)= 75 cleric points and 5x(10+5)= 75 druid points. It would still probably be preferable to multiclass the spellcasters, especially in the case of the spontaneous ones as they have bigger mana pools and the increase in spells known is significant. Let me give an example of a possible spell list for the multiclass character I have in mind if we use Beren's old system with the new equation.


[Fey] Sorcerer 5/[Lore] Oracle 5 with 20 Charisma.

Sorcerer spells known (mana pool 5*(10 + 5)*2= 150)
5th level spells- Telekinesis (cost 25 mana)
4th level spells- Confusion, Dimension Door (cost 16 mana)
3rd level spells- Slow, Stinking Cloud, Fly (cost 9 mana)
2nd level spells- Invisibility, Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Detect Thoughts, Hideous Laughter (cost 4 mana)
1st level spells- Charm Person, Grease, Sleep, Silent Image, Disguise Self, Entangle (cost 1 mana)

Oracle spells known (mana pool 5*(10 + 5)*2= 150)
5th level spells- Wall of Stone (cost 25 mana)
4th level spells- Freedom of Movement, Death Ward (cost 16 mana)
3rd level spells- Bestow Curse, Dispel Magic, Summon Monster III (cost 9 mana)
2nd level spells- Hold Person, Resist Energy, Sound Burst, Silence, Tongues (cost 4 mana)
1st level spells- Cure Light Wounds, Shield of Faith, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Evil, Bane, Identify (cost 1 mana)

Now let us take a look at how I can use these spells. 1st level spells have become very cheap to cast, so I could potentially cast 50 Cure Light Wounds while outside of combat to make sure nobody is hurt (50 mana used). I can still cast Wall of Stone once, Dispel magic twice, and both Freedom of Movement and Death Ward (75 mana used). I now have 25 oracle mana left, so perhaps I will use Hold Person once, Resist Energy a few times, and some Protection from Evil, and what ever.

If I were to use spells in a fashion more similar to how a normal spells/day progression would suggest with the sorcerer spells, then I could cast Telekinesis x3 (75 mana), Confusion (16) mana, and Dimension Door x2 (32 mana), Fly x2 (18 mana), and Invisibility + Glitterdust + Entangle (9 mana).

My conclusion is that healing, and other effective low level spells are very cheap, but that your spell points will run out fast once you start using high level spells. I also think that Bards and others with 3/4 caster level progression will end up with a huge amount of mana, especially with the equation I suggested above. So a better idea would probably to use lowest of class level and caster level x (caster level + relevant ability modifier) though I am in no way sure of what is best.

I still think the above example is clearly more powerful than a single classed sorcerer or a single classed oracle, but slightly less so than before. And I think with Lighthawk's suggestion the single classed sorcerer or oracle would be significantly more powerful than the multiclass, unless you use Mystic Theurge and playing at a very high level (like sorcerer 4/oracle 4/mystic theurge 8).
posted 02-08-12 05:39 AM EDT (US)     16 / 167  
My character will be a Chaotic Good priestess (though probably not of the temple). Unless you have any good setting specific suggestions, I think she will be a priestess of Desna. The class will be a single classed [Fey] Sorcerer, or a 50/50 split between [Fey] Sorcerer and [Heavens or Lore] Oracle. My oracle curse would be Haunted (items dropped land 10 ft. away in a random direction, and retrieving gear requires a standard action. I gain a few extra spells known). She will also have a Faerie Dragon as a familiar if we start at level 7 or higher.

As for backstory and such, I dislike trying to come up with specifics as that usually feels a little forced. But she probably grew up as part of a small(?) tribe of humans, and was considered a bit weird, perhaps even cursed? (she is haunted after all, and may have some fey features?). The last couple of years would have been spent wandering the lands pursuing causes of good.
I'm hoping to get some IC discussion soon.
I will try to get an IC post up sometime later today.
posted 02-08-12 08:22 AM EDT (US)     17 / 167  
This means that the Oracle does not get any cure spells for free, right?
No, that means that the Oracle gets the cure spells at the same rate that the Druid does (CLW at level 1, CMW at level 3, etc.), instead of rate of the Cleric (CMW at level 2).
class level x (caster level + relevant ability modifier)
Wow, that does completely solve the mana inequality. I hadn't thought to do that!

Lighthawk, what do you think? Does the higher versatility of having two spell lists totally outweigh the benefits of the higher level non-spellcasting class abilities?

By the way, I was also originally thinking in 3.5 terms, in which 0-level spells aren't free, and so the mana cost of spells would be (1 + spell level) ^ 2. I'm still thinking about this, because as it is written, you can cast an awful lot of level-1 spells (even a level-1 cleric is potentially able to cast CLW five times per day, at level 1!).
I still think the above example is clearly more powerful than a single classed sorcerer or a single classed oracle, but slightly less so than before. And I think with Lighthawk's suggestion the single classed sorcerer or oracle would be significantly more powerful than the multiclass, unless you use Mystic Theurge and playing at a very high level (like sorcerer 4/oracle 4/mystic theurge 8)
I'm still thinking on this - admittedly I was up really late last night, and probably shouldn't be...
Unless you have any good setting specific suggestions, I think she will be a priestess of Desna.
In Arda, I would look into either Varda or Estë, or perhaps Irmo. Varda is the goddess of light, the stars, and hope; there is not a specific deity of luck in Arda. Estë is the goddess of healing and respite, basically, and Irmo is the god of dreams and inspiration. Irmo and Estë are also married.

I suggest these in part because the religion of the Hylar focuses on Varda, Yavanna (goddess of the earth, plants, and fertility), and Estë, albeit with slightly different emphasis, so if you want to have a background among Hylarin peoples, these would be very good choices. A reasonable tribe for her would be the Jheri, in which case she would be from the same general region as the one in which we are playing. Of course, if she's really been wandering, though, she could be from far away indeed.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 02-08-12 09:55 AM EDT (US)     18 / 167  
By the way, I was also originally thinking in 3.5 terms, in which 0-level spells aren't free, and so the mana cost of spells would be (1 + spell level) ^ 2. I'm still thinking about this, because as it is written, you can cast an awful lot of level-1 spells (even a level-1 cleric is potentially able to cast CLW five times per day, at level 1!).
This makes sense. It means you will have less high level spells per day then with normal rules, but spellcasters can live with it. I approve as long as we are not playing in low levels, being a 1st level sorcerer and having two 1st level spells per day would suck (with normal rules you would have 4). The number of spells a 1st level character has doesn't matter unless someone is going to play a 1st level character.
posted 02-08-12 10:52 AM EDT (US)     19 / 167  
Unfortunately, Beren, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to post IC until I have specifics on what level we're going to be. The way I like to play these things is that I pick my class first, then pick an appropriate race and fill out my mechanics, then write a backstory last based on those things. The possible characters I'm going to play could have widely varying backgrounds.

In this case, I'm going to choose a different class based on what level we are (the factotum/swashbuckler won't be effective enough for me unless we're at least level 9). I still need to get you that info on the factotum, but I seem to keep forgetting in the evenings to package it up and send it to you.

It also looks at this point like we might be lacking a sturdy melee combatant. I'm quite willing to fill that role with a sword-and-board character, perhaps a straight ranger thanks to Pathfinder giving them a d10 hit dice, letting them pick sword and shield as a combat style, and your spellcasting system giving their spellcasting an interesting twist (perhaps a boost, but I haven't done the math yet--it'll end up being pretty close).

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 02-08-12 07:10 PM EDT (US)     20 / 167  
All right, we need to figure out what quest we want to do first, then. All of these quests can be tweaked level-wise, but some of them are going to be easier to tweak up or down than others.


We have...

...The Desert Goddess, in which we're up against a spirit contained in a statue of a deity. It can summon stuff, and is powerful in its own right. Ideal level is probably 9+, because it can do some pretty nasty things to us, and some of the things it can summon are also really powerful.

...The Wind Temple itself, which we need to pass the Desert Goddess to enter unless we're really sneaky or clever. Foes will be more puzzle-based, but will include some fairly formidable enemies even so. Again, we probably want to be level 9-10.

...Besieging the city of the Spirit of Fire, in which we're up against the defending army containing humans, Goliaths, Yuan-ti, and other races. We honestly could be under level 5 for this, but I have ways of making even ordinary human soldiers dangerous to higher-level characters.

...Attacking the ritualists in the ziggurat. The ritualists are modeled after something called the Raphaim in certain Hebrew and other ancient Semitic (non-Jewish) myths. They're much bigger than ogres but still smaller than hill giants, but some have mighty magical powers as well. We could do this at multiple levels, level 8+ is probably preferable.

...Going after the wandering prophet in the south. He's a reasonably powerful spellcaster, but his underlings are a lot less powerful. This is probably the lowest-level of the quests, could be done at level 5 or so. If we're higher level, we may combine this with the bandits.

...Cleaning out the devils and their worshippers underneath the church set up by the aforementioned prophet. Levels 6-7 is probably preferable.

...Investigating the bandits and the possible origins of the wandering prophet. I would say levels 6-7 are preferable, but they, too, could vary a whole lot in ideal level.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 02-09-12 06:45 PM EDT (US)     21 / 167  
Okay...so I was trying to think of something cool to play, and I was wondering about the ninja (in either 3.5 or Pathfinder). I'm not committing to playing one, but figured I'd throw it out there to see if it's approved.

I'm also seriously considering the scout.

"'I quite agree with you,' said the Duchess; `and the moral of that is--"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."'"' --the Duchess from Alice in Wonderland
posted 02-09-12 09:24 PM EDT (US)     22 / 167  
Pathfinder ninja? I'm sorry - I can't find it on the Pathfinder SRD page that I find using Google (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/). Could you maybe provide me with a link?

I like the 3.5 ninja - although, thematically, I've had players play ninjas before without using the ninja class, but rather an interesting rogue/monk combo. You could do the same thing with levels of scout added in. I'm going to suggest that the ninja's ki powers be somehow attached to his mana pool, though, in the case of ninja spellcasters.

If you are a ninja, then I need to know where you're from, though, or at least discuss it. The Sicar, one of the other elven tribes belonging to the Hylarin Empire, are the most likely (local) people to use ninjas.

As a class, (3.5) ninja is approved. I still need to see the Pathfinder counterpart before I can approve that.


*

Ian, thanks for sending me the the Factorum pdf. My initial reactions are these:

(A) It looks a little powerful, being able to basically fill every niche in the party, although I've kinda liked characters who could do that. I'm thinking of ways that it might be toned down just a notch, although I don't think it needs much trimming.

(B) I don't like opportunistic piety for story reasons: namely, gods are often jealous. I don't mind the factorum having healing powers, and I don't mind the factorum wheeling and dealing with lesser spirits (that's what wizards do, after all), but the gods are a little too big and powerful. If nothing else, I would like this ability re-named.


What I would suggest would be something like the following: (1) using Trapfinding requires an inspiration point for the next encounter (although it remains active until the next encounter, even if there are multiple traps); (2) the Intelligence bonus of Brains over Brawn replaces, not adds to, your Strength or Dexterity modifier; (3) Opportunistic Piety requires that you be attached to a specific deity (and therefore is not 'opportunistic'), not just choose any deity you happen to like at the moment.

Factorum magic would obviously be Int-based, if you had a caster level from another class (and class level adds half to caster level, again assuming that you have a caster level from another class). Spell list is probably just the wizard list, pure and simple.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 02-09-12 10:04 PM EDT (US)     23 / 167  
I prefer this srd to the one you're using: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/. The ninja is listed under "Ultimate Combat".

As far as the Factotum goes, it's a 3.5 class and yet you think it's underpowered? I think that the Pathfinder classes are much stronger than 3.5 classes, and while I agree that the Factotum is strong for a 3.5 class, I disagree that it's strong for a Pathfinder class.

I'm not sure what the purpose behind making Trapfinding cost an inspiration point is. Since the inspiration points recharge every encounter, it's somewhat unclear whether he has them in between encounters--I'm somewhat under the assumption that they would recharge every five minutes or so outside of combat, and so spending one on Trapfinding seems trivial to the point of just asking me to remember to do it instead of granting the ability all the time.

I'm fine with your tweaks to opportunistic piety. As far as Brains over Brawn, it's the Factotum's signature ability in many ways, and makes him very good in several relevant skills. However, I don't think it's any more powerful than the Bard's Versatile Performance ability, which lets him use his Perform skill in place of several other skills--this lets him invest in just a couple skills and become extremely potent in a number of other ones for free, potentially saving him dozens of skill points!

With Versatile Performance in mind and the Factotum's generally limited ability to focus in anything but skills, I'd ask you to reconsider your assessment of how powerful Brains over Brawn is.

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 02-10-12 06:45 AM EDT (US)     24 / 167  
I prefer this srd to the one you're using: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/. The ninja is listed under "Ultimate Combat".
Thanks!
As far as the Factotum goes, it's a 3.5 class and yet you think it's underpowered?
Point taken.
I'm not sure what the purpose behind making Trapfinding cost an inspiration point is
The idea I was thinking is that it would deduct one inspiration point from the next encounter, but in the light of the above, ignore this.
With Versatile Performance in mind and the Factotum's generally limited ability to focus in anything but skills, I'd ask you to reconsider your assessment of how powerful Brains over Brawn is.
My concern here was also as much theory as balance: the ability to learn effectively how to use these skills makes sense, which is why you put ranks in them. The ability to apply your mind to them also makes sense, but the idea here is brain is over brawn - you're not even using brawn. This is why I thought that having Int replace rather than add to would be a better fit (also, other classes also have the potential for skilled athleticism; why should this ability be unique to a jack-of-all-trades class, of all things)?

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 02-10-12 08:40 AM EDT (US)     25 / 167  
I think the theory behind Brains over Brawn seems kind of strange if it's completely replacing the ability you would otherwise have used. When you add your intelligence to the other relevant score, it's allowing you to use your brain and your smarts to make a task easier. If you completely replace it, it means that your strength becomes irrelevant for something like climbing, and that your actual nimbleness becomes irrelevant for disarming traps, picking pockets, and tumbling past opponents.

I think the flavor here is that the factotum is not trained in a special way to do all these things, but he's so smart and so good at improvisation that he wings it and finds situational ways to make a task easier. This means that when he climbs, he climbs much as another man would (relying on strength) but has an insight at some point during the climb that lets him get ahead.

At any rate, I don't think a factotum with 8 dexterity is going to be able to disable traps just as easily as another factotum with 16 dexterity just because he's good at improvisation, since no matter how smart you are, if you lack the motor skills to disable the trap, you're going to have a tougher time of it.

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 02-10-12 04:57 PM EDT (US)     26 / 167  
Hmm...the more I read, the more I like the 3.5 ninja. But I do have a proposal--instead of sudden strike, could I have sneak attack, like the Pathfinder ninja has? My thing is that the conditions of sudden strike being useful are limited; with it functioning like sneak attack instead, I'd get it for flanking.

So either make it sneak attack, or let me sudden strike when flanking. Would that be possible?

"'I quite agree with you,' said the Duchess; `and the moral of that is--"Be what you would seem to be"--or if you'd like it put more simply--"Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."'"' --the Duchess from Alice in Wonderland
posted 02-10-12 11:07 PM EDT (US)     27 / 167  
I think the flavor here is that the factotum is not trained in a special way to do all these things, but he's so smart and so good at improvisation that he wings it and finds situational ways to make a task easier. This means that when he climbs, he climbs much as another man would (relying on strength) but has an insight at some point during the climb that lets him get ahead.
So, you basically think of the Int bonus as amounting to virtual skill points?

What I really don't like is the fact that you can get over your normal limit of skill points in bonus this way. Given this discussion and not thinking of an easy way to fix it, I would honestly rather just give the Factorum more skill points (which he can spend on athletic skills) and remove the Brains over Brawn ability entirely. How does 8 + Int modifier skill points/level (like the Rogue) instead of the 6 + Int modifier that he currently has sound?
So either make it sneak attack, or let me sudden strike when flanking. Would that be possible?
Considering that the 3.5 ninja is, well, 3.5, and that Pathfinder classes are generally better than 3.5 classes, I'm going to say yes

Are you thinking of playing a Sica?

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 02-11-12 07:05 AM EDT (US)     28 / 167  
Since we are allowed to use both 3.5 and pathfinder characters, there are a few areas where the rules are differed where we need decide on what rules to use:

1)Skills: do we use the 3.5 or pathfinder skill system?
2)Combat maneuvers: do we use the pathfinder system?
3)Armor: Armor in pathfinder has +1 AC from scale mail and up
4)What do we do with spells and feats that exist in both rule sets, but are differed?
5)Can we use the favored class system from pathfinder for 3.5 classes?

I suggest the following:
1)We use the pathfinder system
2)We use the pathfinder system
3)We use the pathfinder system
4)Not sure what is best, but perhaps we should simply allow total freedom, so we can pick whatever feat and spell we like from both rule sets? (we need to mark in our sheets what rule set spells and feats are coming from)
5)I recommend we can do that, as it would help towards lessen the gap between the power of 3.5 and pathfinder classes.

As for the quests it seems like most people want a high level quest. That would also make sense that we are a high level group if we get to be the first group to pick a quest…
All the quests sounds good to me, so It don’t really matter to me which one we pick

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod
posted 02-11-12 11:23 AM EDT (US)     29 / 167  
So, you basically think of the Int bonus as amounting to virtual skill points?

What I really don't like is the fact that you can get over your normal limit of skill points in bonus this way. Given this discussion and not thinking of an easy way to fix it, I would honestly rather just give the Factorum more skill points (which he can spend on athletic skills) and remove the Brains over Brawn ability entirely. How does 8 + Int modifier skill points/level (like the Rogue) instead of the 6 + Int modifier that he currently has sound?
Still not satisfied. The skill points could help, but because the factotum is so devoted to skills, I don't think it's unreasonable at all for him to be above and beyond in a few of them. I'm not particularly convinced that Brains over Brawn needs to be "fixed", and that it was printed in a very logical and widely-accepted way, without sacrificing balance.
I suggest the following:
1)We use the pathfinder system
2)We use the pathfinder system
3)We use the pathfinder system
4)Not sure what is best, but perhaps we should simply allow total freedom, so we can pick whatever feat and spell we like from both rule sets? (we need to mark in our sheets what rule set spells and feats are coming from)
5)I recommend we can do that, as it would help towards lessen the gap between the power of 3.5 and pathfinder classes.
I agree with all of this.
As for the quests it seems like most people want a high level quest. That would also make sense that we are a high level group if we get to be the first group to pick a quest…
All the quests sounds good to me, so It don’t really matter to me which one we pick
I also agree with this. I'd like to start at 9th level or so. Some of the ones that caught my eye were attacking the ziggurat or doing the desert goddess plus the wind temple.

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 02-11-12 12:57 PM EDT (US)     30 / 167  
I suggest the following:
1)We use the pathfinder system
2)We use the pathfinder system
3)We use the pathfinder system
4)Not sure what is best, but perhaps we should simply allow total freedom, so we can pick whatever feat and spell we like from both rule sets? (we need to mark in our sheets what rule set spells and feats are coming from)
5)I recommend we can do that, as it would help towards lessen the gap between the power of 3.5 and pathfinder classes.
I was assuming this was how we were going to do it, but that sounds like a good option. I particularly agree with point #4 - after all, there are more spells than in the PHB anyway.
Still not satisfied. The skill points could help, but because the factotum is so devoted to skills, I don't think it's unreasonable at all for him to be above and beyond in a few of them. I'm not particularly convinced that Brains over Brawn needs to be "fixed", and that it was printed in a very logical and widely-accepted way, without sacrificing balance.
The problem with the way that it's presented is that some of the other classes, particularly the Ranger and the Scout, should, by the same reasoning, have the same ability, but they don't. So if we give the Factorum this ability, then we have to modify these classes as well, and then we'll have to rebalance other classes, creating a rippling effect that I don't want to deal with.

I'm going to suggest this, then: the Factorum gets a skill mastery ability which allows the Factorum to choose a certain number of non-Int-based skills and gets to add his Int modifier to those specific skills. As the Factorum gains levels, he gets to add more skills to this list; I'm thinking he should have five or so by the time he's 20th-level. Because you pick which skills these are, this also adds the possibility of adding Wis and Cha-based skills as well.
I also agree with this. I'd like to start at 9th level or so. Some of the ones that caught my eye were attacking the ziggurat or doing the desert goddess plus the wind temple.
Okay, finally we're getting somewhere! What do the rest of you think?

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
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