Good tips, people probably thinking lakota food is hard to come by because they are spending it all on civ+city early on like every other nation. Yet thinking logically, why would this benefit the lakota?

The only reason you need civ1 for the other civs is to make more than 5 farms. With lakota you don't need to, so a 2nd city isn't required until almost when you go classical, allowing for much faster food income.

agreed.
however, the 2nd city does provide another 10 food and 10 gold, and an opportunity for another market (for another 10 gold).
gold is important...gotta have plenty of HA!

but with a couple of good rares, the city can be put off, saving all that food for the upgrade and the city itself.

More importantly a second city provides you with a trade route. It also provides you with rush security in case you lose the capital. while delaying the civ 1 is good (and probably necessary) I don't think it is enough. Going military that early denies them 108 food that early. If you are manipulating your ruins for food then you will only be able to make 1 archer so you have poor rush defense. What if it isn't a full on rush but a raid? with the enemy makeing HI/LI/FA combo targetting your citizens your defenses are worthless and your economy drops dead. What if your opponent clasicals in 2 mins and hits you with a HA at 3 mins? you are dead with a 1 city economy belled up. And no strat should be dependent on rares.

Proposing a rush defence economy for a slow starting nation will set you massively behind against any boomer and Lakota are probably the worst rush nation going. One possible strat for them is to go one city 3 minute raiding themselves as HA/HC pumping will allow them keep citizen production going but they are going to be limited by lack of gold until they do get a second city or at least com 2 to sell some wood.

The only way I can see Lakota really viable is on a wet map with boat booming where they may even have an advantage on food production over others as they pump wood choppers.

i found the lakota really slow to start. just never have enough food.
maybe if they patch it, they can make lakota cities worth 15 food.
or maybe make each civ worth 4.5 to 5 food.
i thought lakotas really lagged

I found in my testing that going civ 1 (after mil 1) and then building the 2nd city, and then going classical only takes a few more seconds. I'm not sure why it was almost as quick as the mil 1 /no civ1 start, but the more time allows for more ruins and a few more villagers as well.

either way, having mil 1 by 1:30, and a rax (with 1 set of archer) and tower up shortly after that will squelsh any quick rush. Add in the militia upgrade and you have all you need for that point of the game.

This isnt the be all strategy for the Lakota, just a strat that allows rush defense, while semi-booming.
This start doesnt hinder the Lakota much if at all...the point is they are slow from the start...but booming with them while being defensive isnt going to slow them much at all.
Once in Classical, the Lakota take off great and are tough.

the key is to survive an imminent rush.
and it takes more micro than most players are used to.

[This message has been edited by ReadyMan (edited 05-11-2004 @ 03:42 PM).]

other civs are able to defend a rush without going military1 asap, so why is that needed for lakota?
i do science, pump vills,eco1, then civ 1 and push with that city, temple at both citys, military 1, classic in 4xx.
good thing is you can push youre opponent pretty bad that way. good scouting is easy with all those vills...

good thread so, the lakota whining stops.

[This message has been edited by thao (edited 05-11-2004 @ 05:33 PM).]

Lakota are just awesome in later ages... I've been crushed by them everytime I played, lol. But maybe it's just me.

i GOTTA SAY, i THInk that LAkota are the weakest civ.
there is nothing youcan do.

it takes forever to get your food going.

then even longer to generate wealth.

the only map good for lakota is a fishing map.

i just played them.

i did halfway decent, until the 30 piece american army marched its way in.

i made non stop vills.
eventualy caught up in food.
but had to make forbidd. city and pyramids.

this civ is weak.
it needs attention

noobs like sea biscuit should stay out of serious threads.

hush hush hush seabiscy, in youre spammie spam threddies!

any time you have to go through extensive testing to make a civ playable is when you need a patch.

against the aztec ancient raiding lakota can't win. if they do it's because they knew ahead of time what was happening and made a strategy up just to survive the raid (in the end losing anyway) or the lakota player is of much higher skill.

TGE

The point is clear that the Lakota are at a severe disadvantage in 1 v 1 games with no fishing opportunities.
Yes. That's true.

Quite a few civs are at a disadvantage in 1 v 1 games.
..and yes, perhaps the Lakota have the distinct honor of being at the top of that list.

...and TGE, most civs wont stand up to the aztec ancient raiding...however if you are playing 1v1 and the other guys has aztecs, then you should know what's coming

However, they are far from unplayable. The point I'm trying to make with this thread and the suggested build is that the Lakota can do just fine, even if they are rushed early (a rax is up at 2:00, and no rush is going to hit before that) in a 1v1 match. It isnt a matter of "oh oh, I'm being rushed and I'm Lakota, so I lose".

Standard builds wont work with this civ...it requires thinking outside of the box.

Also, this build is very customizable...Sci1, mil 1, classic
get a city before classic, or after...much depends on the map. So it's not a matter of "I have to play this way or I cant compete vs. a competant player in 1v1 if I use the Lakota".

That said, I've learned a lot experimenting with the Lakota, and in a team game, I'll use this to devastating advantage against my opponents. In a 1v1 game, I assure you I wont die to a rush...and if I raid properly and use the Lakota abilities, I should be able to significantly hinder anyone trying to boom....so the game will be decided later in the game, not in ancient or classical.

One other tip: when you are sending your villagers out scouting for ruins, note out of the way spots that are good for a lumber camp, and build one there, then have your vllager/scouts go there to work. It may be out of the way, but since the Lakota can build anywhere, you pick up a 9 spot wood camp, put a tower there, and not worry about it for the rest of the game. The opponent will have a tough time finding your out of the way resource spots (do this with mountains/metal too!), as he'll focus on your cities, and the resources buildings around them.
An added bonus here is that the food for those villagers remains constant, since the chances of your opponent finding them is slim.
using this method you can build all over the map, keeping your food count high thruout the game.

[This message has been edited by ReadyMan (edited 05-12-2004 @ 03:42 PM).]

Heres a real simple and probably REally effective fix for the lakota.

Start with either 2 cities. ( one free city, free civics 1).
or start with civics 1. then build city for 60f/60w.

or best yet:
start with civ 1, then get one free city which is built instantly. therefore giving you choice of location.

this would be good because it would solve the food vacuum problem that plagues lakota in early game....

free city plus free civs = 60 + 108 food bonus. + 60 wood.
then you get the bonus 10 food per city and you can start creating civs at two places at a time ( though unlikely due to food vacuum).

what do you guys think?
im really for this. will make lakots real playable.

this food vacuum is just plain silly.

EVERYTIME I PLAY THE LAKOTAS, MY SCORE LAGS THE OTHERS BY ABOUT 25% !!! WHENEVER I PLAY OTHER CIVS, MY SCORE EXCEEDS OTHERS (IN FIRST 10 MINS) BY LIKE 20 %!!!!!

this is further evidence of the lakota food wealth vacuum that exists.
ALSO, LAkots are totallly useless if you kill their villagers... a smart opponent. do i hear mongols? will raid the heck out of lakots. killing their food income..

one more idea to fix lakotas:

this one you guys may buy:

either give the civies like 30 % more hit points...

.. or ..

give them an increased attack strength so that they can defend them selves... maybe give them like 75 % the strength of their partisans... or give them free partisan/militia upgrades. this way the civs will be able to acculmulate food and the lakotas wont just collapse with a good raid.

There are some easy ways BHG can make the Lakota more competative...perhaps another thread would be a good place for ideas....

El Capitan posted a build for a Lakota Counter Rush here:

http://o4brons.blogspot.com/#106909823379988654

as you play the Lakota more, you begin to think differently regarding their start/food acquisition.

EC posted some games showing his strategy. Anyone who wants to the play the Lakota will benefit from checking them out.

I posted a lakota strat at AU that works too.

Take too long to repost its in our site under "Lakota the suckiest..."

[This message has been edited by biodegradeablefi (edited 05-12-2004 @ 06:45 PM).]

I find that building a 2nd city in archaic can be good, as it does generate +10 food..although buying civic that early is probably too much of a food drain in most circumstances. Best advice when playing Lakota... pray for a water map.

it is so easy to boom your economy and your military at once with Stable units. It's really a shame...I think the Lakota are among the more powerful nations, but then again, each nation can be in the hands of the right player.

I'm still trying this civ out, and Ive gotta hand it to BHG. Great representation of the native american tribes. Kudos.

edit: I think a great addition to the Lakota would be an ability to quickly raze buildings. Seeing as how they can set up buildings anywhere, they presumably would be able to pack up in a hurry as well. (when you have no farms to clean up and a lot of horses, you can leave in a real hurry). This doesn't have to be a huge benefit, but just an extra bonus. It should require a specific research or upgrade to achieve, like Civ3 or Mil3?

check out my entry in this thread for more.

http://ron.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=17,4038,0,10

edit: just played a game as Lakota vs two moderates ai opponents, and while they both beat me to the third age, I still managed to overpower them with great force. I started the game pumping out extra scouts (which provide food, and find more ruins, quicker), researched looked like : 2-1-3-3 before I even hit the third age, and when I finally made my third city, I couldn't keep up with the resource cap. Then micromanaging my enonomy was a piece of cake with most of my military literally doing just that for me. Then it was just a matter of building wherever I wanted and won a territory victory. simple as that.

actually...come to think of it...Lakota really are a little overpowered in later ages.

[This message has been edited by cultvignette (edited 05-13-2004 @ 04:22 AM).]

I think BHG must be listening to you! Notice bullet #3.

From the BHG website:

The Lakota have the Power of the Plains.
• Instead of building Farms and Granaries, receive Food for each Citizen, Scout, and Calvary unit (except when garrisoned).
• Have no National Territory, and can construct buildings in any territory not held by another nation.
• Buildings can be razed quickly for full purchase value.
• Light and Ranged Cavalry upgrades are free.

wow...I dont know how I overlooked that. good lord, do I feel like abuffoon.

I would actually prefer to be able to build a granary. The medicine upgrades are nice to have when you can afford them. Also, farming research increases the food output of fishing (taxation for non-food), which still handicaps you in water maps. I suspect that this was just an oversight on BHG's part.

el capitans lakota counter rush works really well. The only thing I have a hard time gathering is wealth since my cities are so stretched out

[This message has been edited by crazymaniac (edited 05-15-2004 @ 06:07 PM).]

I don't think the razing bonus is actually implemented ingame. At least, it doesn't show up in their list of bonuses in the drop down menu where you select your civ.

I haven't actually played them yet, so I can't confirm it.

[This message has been edited by mk31bolo (edited 05-15-2004 @ 08:02 PM).]

"noobs like sea biscuit should stay out of serious threads.
hush hush hush seabiscy, in youre spammie spam threddies!"

And what qualifies YOU to be posting?

Sea Biscuit made a few good points, but yours remain in question.

No, the quick-raze bonuses don't work. I'm sure it's probably because some of the playtesters found otu that you can raze your senate real quick and avoid capitol elimination. With that being said, I really wish they would have left this bonus, and maybe let it not apply to senates.

I find food to be a real problem for this civ. Not having the effect of granaries multiplying food output really hurts them. Even late game, you can't get more than about 450 food, unless you either have way too many villies or your army is lopsided with cavalry. I doubt you'll ever see a lakota player researching future commerce and maxing out their food at 999..unless they have food wonders or something. I find that building the pyramids is the only way i can fix this constant food drain I seem to always experience.

BTW, if you rely on your cavalry too much for food ouput, this can really put you in a bind if they all get wiped out during a battle. Trust me, these massive food swings can lose you a game. Your opponent will probably start to mass cav. counters too.. so it's best to keep your army balanced, with a slight emphasis on cav. probably.

I think that villies should gather 5 food, while cav. gather 4. Either that, or scholars can gather 4 food too. There just isn't enough compensation in this civ to make up for the lack of granaries IMO. Also, Lakota should prob. start with an extra villie.

I not sure what the deal is with the other granary techs,(herbal lore) whether they ever get researched or what; hopefully someone will figure this out someday.