In the halls of the immortal, a council has been summoned. Having once considered religions such as Christianity, Islam and Buddhism to be mere passing phases, the rising tide of secularisation has forced the Old Gods to come together to prevent themselves being completely banished to the realms of fairy stories and twee fables.

Representatives have come from every major tradition: a variety of Gods, Goddesses, Demons, Spirits, Demi-Gods and mythological heroes. All are legends. Some were chosen by their peers, others elected by secret ballot.

But dark whispers have been heard, whispers that not all of those present are there for the greater good, but for their own dark agendas...


It is now Night 0.
Night will last for approximately 48 hours.
Send in any night actions to mideonsworld@aol.com

The deadline for night actions will expire in about 12 hours. If you're abstaining deliberately, please let me know.

The Events of Night 0


THE DEATH OF VAINAMOINEN, HERO OF FINNISH LEGEND

Though this was the first day of the council, much had occurred during the night. As the delegates arrived in the Great Hall to take their seats, they found one of their number, Thymole, slumped over the wooden table, a cursed dagger embedded in his back. Admist the outcry and the shock, suspicious glances and accusing stares darted back and forth. As attendants removed the body, the doors burst open, and BBJynne rushed in. Breathless, he exclaimed 'Someone has tried to murder me!' before his eyes fell upon the body being taken away.

As the commotion subsided, the delegates warily took their seats. The tension was palpable as they looked at one another across the vast oak table. Evidently, the stakes were much higher than any of them realised.

THYMOLE (Vainamoinen), has been killed. He was a Temporary Masoniser who could choose a different player to communicate with each night. He won with the town.
Someone tried to kill BBJYNNE, but failed.

It is now Day One.
With eleven alive, it is six to lynch.

Ok, I've never heard of this Vainamoinen, so it's ok that he's forgotten

I'm not sure whether I should be relieved or offended that I'm never killed Night 0.

Two things:

1) No offense to BBJynne, who may very well be a great player, but he's not exactly high priority for doctor protection, so I'd wager he's an Iron role of some sort. If that's the case, a full claim couldn't hurt to get us somewhere.
2) I don't like random votes as much as I used to but I want to appear helpful, so here are two things.

To elaborate before anyone jumps on me --

1) If he's Iron and can't be killed, a claim from him seems reasonable. The town having as much information out in the open as possible is always a good thing, especially when the scum can't do anything about it.
2) Scum can be Iron, too, keep in mind.

I don't see why we'd want someone who is more likely to be town as our first player to claim. It doesn't benefit us whatsoever, even if they are iron.

Quoted from Ashrzr:

The town having as much information out in the open as possible is always a good thing

Yes, except the opposite. The more information out in the open, the easier scum have forming fake claims and figuring out who everyone esle is. Needlessly putting information out there does not help us.

Quoted from Ashrzr:

Scum can be Iron, too, keep in mind.

Agreed. BB isn't confirmed town, by any right, but statistically speaking, he is the least likely to be scum than any of us. He either cannot be mafia or cannot be an SK, since presumably one or the other shot at him last night. The rest of us can be either, and are thus more likely to be scum based on pure statistics. Thus, unless BB does something scummy, he's also the worst choice for random pressure today.

If you want to play that game, statistically-speaking, if we randomly pressure someone, they are much more likely to be Town.

Just playing devil's advocate as usual, though, really. It doesn't matter that much.

Sure, but statistically speaking, if we do not pressure anyone, we will never pressure scum. I'm surprised to see you changing sides on the anti/pro-information debate after years of defending anti-information.

Yes, except the opposite. The more information out in the open, the easier scum have forming fake claims and figuring out who everyone esle is. Needlessly putting information out there does not help us.

I wouldn't call it anymore "needless" than were we to randomly pressure. Statistically, random pressure will likely yield a Town claim because there have consistently been more Town players than scum in nearly, if not every, mafia game ever. Not getting BBJynne to claim because he might be Town is based off of an assumption and much more statistically-ambiguous reasoning.

Logically, BBJynne is as good a choice of any to claim, in my opinion, if not better. I'm not sold on Iron implies Town, and because random pressure is likely to result in a truthful (and by your reasoning, needless) claim it just makes sense.

Logic isn't always the answer, though, especially in mafia, so it really doesn't matter. I tend to argue things into the ground and I know it annoys people, so it's really not a big deal 10 posts into a game.

Quoted from Ashrzr:

I wouldn't call it anymore "needless" than were we to randomly pressure. Statistically, random pressure will likely yield a Town claim because there have consistently been more Town players than scum in nearly, if not every, mafia game ever.

Let me lay this out for you, like you and I used to lay out all the time before.

We need players to claim in order to proceed. Therefore, a random bandwagon is necessary, the opposite of needless.

Our goal should be to get scum to claim. Therefore, we should choose players to claim who are the most likely to be scum. Right now, everyone is equally likely to be scum, except BB, who is slightly less likely to be scum.

Thus, BB is the one player we shouldn't want to claim right now.

Quoted from Ashrzr:

Not getting BBJynne to claim because he might be Town is based off of an assumption and much more statistically-ambiguous reasoning.

Bait and switch. I'm not saying we shouldn't make him claim be cause he "might" be town, but because he is "more likely" town than anyone else. Everyone "might" be town, but only BB is "more likely" to be town.

Quoted from Ashrzr:

Logically, BBJynne is as good a choice of any to claim, in my opinion, if not better.

Except, as I've already shown, he is not as good a choice as any. He is statistically less likely to be scum than anyone else because scum took a shot at him last night, meaning he can't be aligned with that scum faction/player.

Quoted from Ashrzr:

I'm not sold on Iron implies Town

No one is saying that Iron implies town. But a failed kill implies not allied with one of two potential scum factions.

Quoted from Ashrzr:

and because random pressure is likely to result in a truthful (and by your reasoning, needless) claim it just makes sense.

Again, bait and switch. Random pressure is likely to result in a truthful claim. Right now, pressuring BB is more likely to result in a truthful claim. Therefore, we should minimize our losses by pressuring someone who is less likely to result in a truthful claim (i.e. everyone but BB).

Quoted from Ashrzr:

Logic isn't always the answer, though, especially in mafia, so it really doesn't matter. I tend to argue things into the ground and I know it annoys people, so it's really not a big deal 10 posts into a game.

If we're going to argue, at least stop relying on rewording what I said.

Speaking of odd things that happened in the night, I was informed that someone stole my vote. Proof of loss, Vote Ash

Well shit! If that's how it's going down, then I'm taking the Holy Grail with me. SUCK IT, BASTARDS.

*Runs away with cup*

And since he is so pro-info,

Vote: Ash

Vote: Ash

Being iron has nothing to do with one's faction, true, but being killed N-0 does. If he was shot at, he either--as Rot expertly said--cannot be the serial killer* or cannot be the mafia. If he isn't the mafia, he can only be a Townie, a survivor*, or a serial killer*. If he isn't a serial killer, he can only be a Townie, a survivor, or mafia.

*Assuming these even exist in this game

I don't like pressuring the people actually *playing* the game, because I like to encourage participation and activity, but Ash is raising some small flags and I'd like to see at the very least a name claim.

EIII, VÄINÄMÖINEEEEN!!!! Miks sun piti kuolla?? MIKSI? Miksi?? Oisit nyt ees lävistänt hyökkääjäs siu haueleukakanteleella!

*tajuaa mitä on tekemässä, juoksee pakoon*

Translation:
NOOO, VÄINÄMÖINEEEEN!!!! Why'd you have to die?? WHY? Why?? You should've at least skewered your attacker with your pike's jaw zither!

*realizes what is doing, runs away*

On second thought, let's not go to Finland. 'Tis a silly place.

I'm assuming Vainamoinen is from Finnish culture?

Just noticed the caption for the image.

Anyway, moving on, I'll hold off voting to see Ash's reaction.

What if there was a bus drive or some other manipulative role interfering? I don't think that, if ever we find the SK and a mafioso, BB is surely not linked to the mafioso.

Just as an aside, I'll probably have no internet access from Tuesday-Thursday this week. I'm not expecting the game to move on hugely in that time but I'm currently looking for a non-playing forummer to help me out by taking vote counts, etc. I've emailed Maeg but if anyone wants to volunteer out of the goodness of their own hearts, t'would be much appreciated.

Also, as usual, if anyone is a miller or a survivor or an otherwise guilty-upon-investigation role, it might be best if you come forward now; if we catch you later, you won't have much of a defense, I don't think. Not to distract from the Ash-BB discussion, but I think it's important.

I can never give my opinion in mafia without being pressured, it seems. I was about to agree with Rot, too, just didn't get there in time.

I'm Anansi, basically a trickster god, a Roleblocker. I abstained last night, since I'm more likely to target Town than scum, and didn't want to risk blocking the Cop or Doctor.

In a game this small, I doubt that there are two Town roleblockers, so I believe Ash as long as he isn't counterclaimed. A trickster God (like Loki) is a bit worrying, but I'll lay off it for now. Does anybody have any strange or worrying roles/names that they'd like to come out with?

(I'm trying my hand at taking the lead. I generally just follow along.)

If we're going to argue, at least stop relying on rewording what I said.

I never reworded your points. Rather, you misinterpreted most of the things I said.

(I'm trying my hand at taking the lead. I generally just follow along.)

Don't, people always think you're scummy, no matter what. People thought I was then, and even when I hold completely opposite opinions now, they still do. And if you're Rot, people blindly follow you, even when you're scum, because you happened to monopolize the mafia queues.

Theres some bitter in this thread.

Yeah, seriously. Can we not get all worked up over this? Nobody is following Rot blindly. He's making good points. If BB wants to claim, I'm fine with that, but I hardly feel it's necessary. It might even be detrimental to the Town.

Speaking of Loki and survivors, I'm Loki, a survivor. I can claim further as is deemed necessary by the town.

Curious. I buy that Loki is a survivor. I'd also buy that he's a serial killer, but I'm guessing we need to look out for Hades more than anyone else.

Unvote

I don't think pressuring Ash will get us anywhere.

I don't think we should claim roles unless the character claimed/conditions claimed under are very pressing at this point. I agree with Mozzy on the stance of Survivors / Millers. We should wait for a bit before acting further.

At least until Newt can confirm my vote was stolen last night.

If we can get that confirmed, I'd say it's a good chance that you're a Townie. Scum isn't likely to steal their own votes.

Likely town, thank you Mozzy.

So after Newt confirms, should we random pressure an inactive to draw their attention?

Newt I'll do the vote counts and anything else you want me to do.

Thoughts on developments in next post.

On what basis are we deciding which names are likely to be what? Is there anything I can look up so as to catch up on that front?

From what Marvel has taught me Loki should definitely be scum...

Loki is a trickster god. He does malicious things but they're usually just bad pranks, if I recall correctly.

If we can get that confirmed, I'd say it's a good chance that you're a Townie. Scum isn't likely to steal their own votes.

Aren't politicians usually town? I don't think Dante's that likely not to be scum.

But politicians don't blind-fire N-0, I don't think. Also, vote stealing is a power sometimes given to scum.

Newt, do survivors show up as guilty upon investigation?

I'd like a cop to investigate Rot if Newt answers in the negative. If survivors do appear guilty, I'd like an investigation on BB to confirm that we have an iron Townie, Ash, or me (just to confirm to the Town what I already know).

Any ideas?

Aren't politicians usually town?

Nope. Born Nobles are more often town, vote-stealers are more often scum. Rot can explain this better, even I don't have a proper grasp over this concept.

So based on your knowledge which gods would you say are likely to be scum?

I mean I have a proper grasp over the concept but there're different terms for town and scum vote stealers.

Hades/Pluto (Greek/Roman); Loki (Norse) (maybe); Set (Egyptian); you're Indian, so you should be able to tell us about any Hindu gods, but I have a sneaking suspicion that we'll be dealing with Europe mostly; the devil (Christianity/Islam) or something similar (I, myself, am not technically a god).

If we consider war to be an inherently evil thing, we might consider gods of war like Mars and such.

I really wish I knew more about Celtic gods, because I have a feeling that we'll be coming across a few of those.

Really, though, this game will likely focus around Scandinavia. I kind of doubt that Greeks, Egyptians, or any sort of Asians will be involved at all (I didn't read the mafia flavor, sorry). I think looking through names of gods won't be much help for now unless we decide on a lot of name claiming.

For now, I'd say random/inactive pressure. Who's game?

I agree.

I dunno. The OP has a quote from the Egyptian book of the dead. I expect to see figures from a variety of defunct cultural mythoi. There are 12 of us, and thus far, I don't believe there has been any overlap in claims. For the time being, I think we should assume that we are dealing with 12 figures of demi-god or god status from 12 different cultures. Given that Newt is dipping into both somewhat well known (Loki/Anansi) and relatively obscure (Väinämöinen) European/African culture, I don't expect Far East cultures to be dealt with too heavily, but we shouldn't rule them out entirely.

So let's not forget Grendel, the giant Beowulf fighted.

Indeed, Mozzy, I myself am Egyptian, so I think we'll be dealing with those, too.

Quoted from Ashrzr:

I never reworded your points. Rather, you misinterpreted most of the things I said.

You bait and switched "likely" with "more likely". I said we shouldn't force a claim from BB because he was more likely town than us, and you acted like I had said we shouldn't force anyone who was likely town to claim to achieve Reductio Ad Absurdum.

Thanks Heir, but Maegereg has agreed to do votecounts and so on in my absence. Which won't actually be all that long, but it gives you guys some continuity. Any major gamebreaking questions should probably be left til I get back on Thursday evening (GMT).

To the others points:

1. In order to confirm or deny any irregularities in voting behaviour, I suggest that the affected player place a vote, ask for a count, and see what the outcome is.

2. Survivors, if present in the game, will indeed turn up guilty.

I did.

Vote: Ash

Vote count please.