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Topic Subject: Dutch Anti-Spain Semi-FF (and general purpose FF)
posted 11-20-06 07:09 PM EDT (US)   
Let's just call it the Dutch Semi-FF.

-----The Idea-----
Spain seems to be a problem for many Dutch users. You may not have a hard time with Spain, but many do. So this little FF will help you out.

Now I am not claiming I invented this. No, I have seen many recordings to be inspired to make an Anti-Spain strategy. Groni recordings, an iamgrunt rec, and the general knowledge that a Dutch player must FF to have chance against Spain.

-----INTRO-----

Objective

The goal of this strategy is to age normally, get 2 banks up, make 10 skirms and ship 8 pikes to raid settlers and TPs or houses.
Then we get to age 3 ASAP and ship ruyters while making more.

Why ruyters? Well let's think about spain's shipments. They only have one shipment that can beat microed ruyters. That shipment is Highlanders, and it won't show up often in the spanish player's first few attacks.

Yes, they can and will make skirms, but there will only be a few at first to supplement their shipment army. Your skirms and shipments can kill those.

Cards Required

-3 settlers
-700 wood
-700 food
-8 pikemen
-9 ruyters

Very useful and recommended cards are:
-8 skirmishers
-8 halberdiers
-Military Reforms (halb speed boost)
-700 coin (just in case)
-1000 wood
-Bank of Amsterdam
-Bank of Rotterdam
-Tulip speculation
-Unique Church Card
-Fort
-Factories
-----Build Order-----

This is just a loose build order. This build order also does NOT take into account treasures. Getting a couple good wood treasure can open up a lot of options- go for an extra bank, an outpost, etc. Also it is possible to turn this from a semi-ff into a 3 bank straight up FF. You won't have 10 skirms and 8 pikes, however.

Remember to keep a near constant stream of settlers coming from your TC. I am sure everyone knows this but just in case.

Discovery Age
•Have 4 settlers mine gold and everything else on food as normal.
•CARD- 3 settlers.
•Age up when you have 17 villagers. USE THE 400 WOOD POLITICIAN.

Transition
•Split settlers up so that 7 are on food, 3 are on wood, and 7 are on gold. Queue a couple settlers.

Colonial Age
Set TC waypoint to your mine, as all created vills will go here in this age
•CARD- 700 wood, and
•Collect 400 wood, make a barracks and a few houses near TC(Use gold and wood villagers for most building jobs in age 2).
•Collect 700 wood and make 2 banks, as you
•Queue some skirmishers and add more until you have a batch
•CARD- 8 pikemen
•Make another batch of skirms.
•IMPORTANT: Once your banks are done shift 2 food settlers to coin. This leaves you with 3 wood gatherers, 5 food gatherers, and the rest on gold.
•Take your mini army of 10 skirms and 8 pikes to the enemy.
•CARD-700 food
•Use the 8 pikes to kill forward towers,TPs (but not ATPs-too strong) and/or houses, as your 10 skirms can one volley kill settlers.
•Collect the 700 food and advance ASAP. USE THE FAST AGE POLITICIAN

Note: If the enemy advances while your army is in his base, be ready for it, and kill the hussars/pikes. Retreat soon after he advances so his shipments don't destroy your small army. The skirms and pikes will help a LOT against his pikes/rods and falcs that'll come soon.

Transition
•Shift some gold gatherers to wood until you have enough wood for a stable, make one right away, then put the gold gatherers back on gold. It is a good idea to leave a couple of those vills on wood (for a total of ~5 on wood) so you can make enough houses or an outpost should you need it.
•You will likely run out of gold in your first mine (provided it is not a gold mine) during transition. Be ready to send your vills off to another mine.
•Make sure you have enough housing for your future shipments.

Fortress Age
•Queue 5 ruyters.
•CARD- 9 ruyters
Remember, you have a barracks and a stable, so use whatever units you need to use.
•Hide your skirms and pikemen from the falconets the spanish player has. Use TC to shoot falcs if they come too close.
•Use your freshly trained and shipped ruyters to kill the falcs, but don't let the pikes/rods get you. Once his falconets are dead, move in your skirms and kill his pikes or rods.
If the enemy is chasing your ruyters away from the falcs before you get too close, make sure you run the ruyters towards your skirms. Skirms will either kill or scare away the pikes so that they go back to falc guarding.
•Make sure you keep a ruyter to skirm ratio of 2 to 1 or so, to fight off enemy shipments. Attack him if you ever have the upper hand- your army is EASY to micro.
•Now it is up to you. Make a bank if you have extra resources, or go on the offensive and make an artillery foundry to make a cannon + ruyter army. It all depends on the situation.

The End

P.S. This strategy also works against other civs, especially in a mirror match where both players are going to FF or Semi-FF. You don't need to train ruyters.

Recordings :
On Andes, good example.


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ESO: F1RÉ_FLÝ
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[This message has been edited by F1RE_FLY (edited 11-22-2006 @ 03:37 PM).]

Replies:
posted 11-20-06 07:58 PM EDT (US)     1 / 28  
Interesting idea. I might try that.

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
posted 11-20-06 08:17 PM EDT (US)     2 / 28  
A few small errors:
Under the Colonial Age Heading:

Quote:

This leaves you with 3 wood gatherers, 5 food gatherers, and the rest on food.

Should be the rest on coin I believe.

Quote:

Shift some gold gatherers to wood until you have enough wood for a stable, make one right away, and put some gold gatherer back on gold until you have about 5 on wood.

Not too sure what to make of this one.

Apart from that, very nice. Skirms will beat this but can only be produced locally which takes a lot of the steam from the Spanish FF. It's important to keep the economy going strong too by producing villagers, and maybe getting an early market up if possible, because once shipments lose their effect the game will be decided by who has the better economy.

A good guide.

posted 11-20-06 11:19 PM EDT (US)     3 / 28  
wish i would have seen this an hour earlier x_x this spain guy flippin beat me down

"to do anything but your best would be to sacrafice the gift"
posted 11-21-06 08:04 AM EDT (US)     4 / 28  
Could you post times?
posted 11-21-06 11:27 AM EDT (US)     5 / 28  
n1
seems very good to me, especially when I saw this rec of iamgrunt as well, when he owned dream on Texas with exactly this strat of harrassing with skirms and pikes :P

posted 11-21-06 11:39 AM EDT (US)     6 / 28  
This is almost exactly what Windy_In_Heaven did against Glouk.

Age Sanctuary Rec

The only difference I can remember is that Windy uses Colbertism (food trickle) instead of 3 settlers. Same idea though. It appeared to work very effectively, atleast for him. You still need pretty decent micro to hold off a good Spanish attack.


- - ESO Name: poita - -
- - ELO Rating: 2120 - -
- - Civ: Russia + Dutch - -
My Aztec Unit Guide (Updated!)
posted 11-21-06 03:47 PM EDT (US)     7 / 28  
Yes i saw that rec.

I owned, well not "owned", but I beat dream with this too.

Please know that I am not claiming this as my own idea. I have seen many recs and such, I just refined it into a strategy that people not-in-the-know could use it.

Sephiroth, about times; I don't know exactly. I do know that I usually get the ruyter shipment (and a batch from my stable) about the same time the spanish player's falcs and rods/pikes reach my base. My skrims and pikes are already at home by then.


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ESO: F1RÉ_FLÝ
~·························································~

[This message has been edited by F1RE_FLY (edited 11-21-2006 @ 03:48 PM).]

posted 11-22-06 00:02 AM EDT (US)     8 / 28  
One question, swiss pikes?
posted 11-22-06 00:33 AM EDT (US)     9 / 28  
you always have to have swiss pikes, they own!

"to do anything but your best would be to sacrafice the gift"
posted 11-22-06 12:06 PM EDT (US)     10 / 28  
when spain has them first...?
posted 11-22-06 03:34 PM EDT (US)     11 / 28  
Spain players rarely do a merc FF now. It only happened to me once and the player already knew my strategy, so...

But I won :P. He did get both my banks and my barracks and a house but he had to age very fast to do so.

EDIT: if there is a forward tower I usually kill it. Maybe i'll put that in the strat so people know to look for those.


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ESO: F1RÉ_FLÝ
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[This message has been edited by F1RE_FLY (edited 11-22-2006 @ 03:35 PM).]

posted 11-22-06 10:57 PM EDT (US)     12 / 28  
Sounds good to me i'll try this out sometime to get out of my long losing streak/

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[][][][][][][][][][] Stonewall J [][][][][][][][][][][]
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posted 11-23-06 00:29 AM EDT (US)     13 / 28  
windy in heaven is number 3 in the world with this type of play style. so it must be good.
posted 11-23-06 06:58 AM EDT (US)     14 / 28  
tbh spain can counter this too easily as there op, 7 rods + war dogs, they hit fort faster than u, of course u make/send ruyters, but any smart spain player will make skirms, might be better to have 2 shipments of ruyers whilst making a few cannons then making more ruyters then they die, decent strat but spain too OP
posted 11-24-06 01:38 PM EDT (US)     15 / 28  
FireFly owns, you however, don't.

armyballer - Another 3v3, this time my team is winning, (about an hour into it). One of the other team players admits defeat and resigns, then out of no where I get OOS message. I'm pissed, I again log onto agecommunity and see I have been given a LOSE. How did this happen?

AceOfKings - ender_ward hacked into your game and made it go OOS

Unban JamesLock
posted 11-24-06 03:11 PM EDT (US)     16 / 28  

Quote:

tbh spain can counter this too easily as there op, 7 rods + war dogs, they hit fort faster than u, of course u make/send ruyters, but any smart spain player will make skirms, might be better to have 2 shipments of ruyers whilst making a few cannons then making more ruyters then they die, decent strat but spain too OP

just so you know, 7 rods is useless in front of 10 skirms.

this strat beats 7 rods + 5 dogs every time.

posted 11-25-06 00:18 AM EDT (US)     17 / 28  
I always build ruyters against spain aswell :P

Skirms can easily kill pikes n rods and the ruyters kill off the lancer shipment and the 2 falcs.

I dont usually raid with 10skirms and 8 pikes tho, i just go 3 banks,stable and houses then make ruyters and ship skirms after my ruyter shipment. I havent played many spanish recently but it worked against the ones i did play.


If u played Stronghold u might enjoy this http://www.zshare.net/download/sh-mix-mix-rar.html

[This message has been edited by Swirl (edited 11-25-2006 @ 00:22 AM).]

posted 11-25-06 11:40 AM EDT (US)     18 / 28  
This is nice, the deck gives you lots of options.

If I could make one comment, since the mining bonus patch you can support training a dozen or more consecutive vils with only 3 miners. It doesn't amount to a huge difference but I find I get the 800F about the time my 16th vil comes out (shipping 3), and can age a bit faster.

[Edit: I drew a Spanish player right after posting this and gave it a go. The pike/skirm army took down his barracks and I got eight vils before being knocked down by shipment units. But that put me on top of the economy curve for the rest of the game. Nice.]


Looking for an adult clan?

[This message has been edited by bender647 (edited 11-25-2006 @ 12:28 PM).]

posted 12-03-06 02:03 PM EDT (US)     19 / 28  
Hmmm... I tried this out just a few minutes ago, and the ruyters own the lancers, but I'm having trouble dispatching the falconets. The ruyters don't do enough damage to them at range. Are you supposed to melee them, or just evade capture via pikes and rods until you widdle them down?

Thanks for the help.

MightyFireball.


Smoke Rings Award Winner
Chill with me.
posted 12-04-06 09:23 PM EDT (US)     20 / 28  
uhh f1re_fly rush games are for noobs play real games treaty games whisper me for help. =)
posted 12-05-06 10:26 AM EDT (US)     21 / 28  
yeah give it to him for flaming everyone who posts treaty strats lol

Firefly, Spain doesn't always FF... if he rushes you instead, you're dead as a doornail as he can be in your base with a good size colonial army before you're ready with your 10 skirms and 8 pikes.



Currently retired from AOE3... moved on to LOTRO... yeah an MMO... but a fun one!
Hockey fan for Life:
"I believe the Canucks of Vancouver are formidable warriors." -Teal'c, Stargate SG-1
posted 12-05-06 10:45 AM EDT (US)     22 / 28  
I'm a bit late to the party here, but I think this looks very good vs. Spain. Ruyters do a great job whittling down those all-important Spanish shipments. In the meantime, you can let your early harrassment and banks bring you over the top economically.

Nice job -- maybe I'll have to try some Dutch again soon.


Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style

[This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 12-05-2006 @ 10:46 AM).]

posted 12-05-06 02:43 PM EDT (US)     23 / 28  
10 skirms and 8 pike do nothing vs spain since they all age wth the tower poli, can easily have 7 rods 5dogs. imo it is better to build eco rather than rush with 10 skirms 8 pike. However it is viable to make 10 or so skirms for raiding or protection from a rod rush, but the 8 pike are a waste of a card vs espagnol. best thing to do if you know he is ff for sure is to ff also with a better eco but stay on the defensive in early fort. but anyway you guys wont listen to a good player, you prefer to flame. anyway nice strat firefly ruyters skirm or ruyters falc is a good combo vs spain. well done.
posted 12-05-06 03:24 PM EDT (US)     24 / 28  

Quoted from CeRbY:

10 skirms and 8 pike do nothing vs spain since they all age wth the tower poli, can easily have 7 rods 5dogs. imo it is better to build eco rather than rush with 10 skirms 8 pike. However it is viable to make 10 or so skirms for raiding or protection from a rod rush, but the 8 pike are a waste of a card vs espagnol. best thing to do if you know he is ff for sure is to ff also with a better eco but stay on the defensive in early fort. but anyway you guys wont listen to a good player, you prefer to flame.

No, actually, for a change, you gave good advice. The Pikes are indeed going to do absolutely nothing against a good Spanish player, and it is indeed better to focus on econmy with 10 Skirmishers incase of a Rod rush.

Or, you can just play Ottoman and teach those Spanish ****s how to bend over and enjoy it.
Like this.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 12-05-2006 @ 03:45 PM).]

posted 12-05-06 03:38 PM EDT (US)     25 / 28  
Pikes will kill a forward tower. I guess you are right when you say they won't do much to eco. But they do help when spain arrives later with units. Especially if they age with 4 hussars and want to raid.

And MightyFireball:

Quote:

just evade capture via pikes and rods until you widdle them down?

yep. But it's "whittle".

EDIT: CDawg: What can a dutch do vs. rod rush anyways? I think if this beat all spain strategies it would be OP. If you notice a rax going up or anything don't ship 700 wood first, ship pikes.

Besides I don't play dutch now that halbs are OP. Yes. they are.


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ESO: F1RÉ_FLÝ
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[This message has been edited by F1RE_FLY (edited 12-05-2006 @ 03:44 PM).]

posted 12-05-06 06:10 PM EDT (US)     26 / 28  

Quote:

yep. But it's "whittle".

Oh, I really do apoligize. (It's kinda ironic that I can't spell apoligize either)

MightyFireball.


Smoke Rings Award Winner
Chill with me.

[This message has been edited by MightyFireball (edited 12-05-2006 @ 06:11 PM).]

posted 12-06-06 05:30 AM EDT (US)     27 / 28  
why would halbs be op?:S
maybe if u outnumer enemies with them, but what is NOT op then:S
posted 12-06-06 12:12 PM EDT (US)     28 / 28  
halbs can easily be countered... they aren't OP at all. sure, they are powerful but since they are a fortress age unit, every civ has a counter for it. but hey, if you don't want to play a civ because you think a unit is OP, NP. beats me why you made this strat then...

Ok, so in order to use this strat you need to verify spain is doing his FF strat first otherwise you're screwed. better make good use of that envoy!



Currently retired from AOE3... moved on to LOTRO... yeah an MMO... but a fun one!
Hockey fan for Life:
"I believe the Canucks of Vancouver are formidable warriors." -Teal'c, Stargate SG-1
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