Quoted from Ender_Ward:

That's very nice of you, I appreciate it!

So here's why I insist that Ottomans are gravely over-boosted, and it goes back to my original philosophy of balance patching. I think a balance patch should balance civs before it balances units. Unit balance is great, but civ balance is better. (Both is of course ideal.)

Each of your Ottoman changes make the targeted unit better -- no problem, that's what a boost does. But more importantly, they all affect a civ that overperformed in 1.02 and shows serious signs of overperforming in patch 1.03. You wouldn't want to boost every unit in the line-up of a balanced civ and it's even more dangerous to do so to a civ that is (so far) performing extremely well in 1.03 (#3 in FGO and #2 in CGO!)

There can be only one result when an already strong civ has its enemies nerfed and its own entire military line-up boosted in one stroke -- they will be the king of the mountain.

Quoted from Ender_Ward:

We probably need more time to know this for sure, but isn't it the case that Ottoman is also plenty strong enough in 1.03? According to what we know so far, they still perform magnificently in the category that matters most for balance -- winning. It follows that Ottoman should receive no boosts, especially not such a large number.

Quoted from Ender_Ward:

Notice that these wildly expensive units aren't all that impressive in fortress age. They're fine, but they don't knock your socks off. It's only later when things get out of hand. A preferable solution, if such a thing is even needed, is to calculate their stats based on a shadow colonial unit (a suggestion I've heard many times.) Then they'll perform similarly throughout the ages yet still retain their uniqueness.

As for the travois change and the CdB nerf, I generally think civ bonuses should be treated with a very, very light touch. Remember that beefy vills and a good unique unit are pretty much France's whole civ bonus. Civ bonuses, when looked at independent of other factors, always sound extremely dangerous. Free Portuguese TCs sounds crazy -- until you use Ports. Free Ottoman vills sounds completely insane -- until you use Ottomans. Travois dance probably could use an adjustment, but a 50% change will make many buildings much more expensive to dance for than to build by hand.

I want to get back later with some comments about the Aztec changes, but I'll have to do so later.

Quoted from xMatt the Greatx:

I hope that you're only referring to the comments of bias and not the general comments about this patch favoring Ottomans. I think the patch very strongly favors Ottomans, and the forumers here would say the same about the patch whether it was written by Ender_Ward or Weird Al Yankovic. Now I doubt Weird Al would get flamed in quite the same way, but people would still say Ottos are OP in 1.04.

Quote:

They are also the most easily counterable unit in the game. How do they counter LI* in some cases?

Ender, why don't you just give light infantry a negative multiplier against cannons rather than boosting the cannons rr? Don't forget ranged cav should still be able to counter them.

Because that would be an abus nerf!

Quote:

QFT.

He's polite, informative, respectful yet opinionative. Easily one of the best role models on these forums (First best being me of course )

WTF!

Patch 1.03 has been out barely 2 weeks and already it is being charged with the everything short of the OJ murders!

Ender - Can you actually show that Ottos are losing "in droves" to French.

Because the raw stats DO NOT show that!

-------------
There has been a total (TOTAL) of 17 matches between players of GO (GO v GO) level and the result is 10-7 Otto on top.

For FGO level (FGO v FGO) there has been 176 matches and Otto on top 106-70.

------------
As for Germany there has been a total of 52 matches between FGO level players and the result is 27-25 Otto.

There has been a grand total of 1 match between GO level players and the Otto player won that matchup over Germany.
------------

Why do you want to boost nearly every unit that the Otto can possibly build?

Quote:

So to compound that you want to RAISE the RR of Arty?
You just made a increase in the penalty to all other Ranged Inf and Cav units (except Grens) vs Arty by 60%!

So Abus has a 25% penalty? Everyone else currently gets a 75% penalty which you want to raise to 90%!

Abus (226VS) would do 30 net damage/shot
Skirmishers (168VS) would do 1.5 net damage/shot
Strelets(65VS) would do .8 net damage/shot
Forest Prowlers (168VS) would do 1.7 damage/shot
Dragoons(252VS) would do 4.4 net damage/shot
Cav Archers(219VS) would do 2.6 net damage/shot
Arrow Knights(185VS) would do 5 net damage/shot

To measure effectiveness convert each unit to a standard amount of VS so I'll select 500VS worth of each type:

Abus do 22.12 net damage/second unchanged from current
Skirms do 1.49 net damage/second down from 3.72/sec
Strelets do 2.05 net damage/second down from 5.13/sec
Forest Prowlers do 1.69 net damage/second down from 4.21/sec
Dragoons do 2.91 net damage/second down from 7.27/sec
Cav Archers do 3.96 net damage/second down from 9.85/sec
Arrow Knights do 9.01 net damage/second (but these are DIRECT counter to ARTY!) down from 22.52/sec

So what the HECK are Aztecs gonna do vs Arty?!?! with any meatshield.

In fact the patch has so *far* shown that the balance changes made by ES have worked ok, yet it IS still early to reach solid conclusions.

[This message has been edited by Garlef (edited 03-28-2007 @ 04:22 PM).]

Joe, I'll address your post later. A bit pressed for time right now.

Quoted from Mediolanus:

Because I don't think ranged cavalry should be countering artillery as well as it does now. Indeed, I thought it was a mistake to give ranged cavalry 2x against artillery right from the moment it was introduced, and still do.

Quoted from Adam:

Abus Guns already have that penalty. They wouldn't be affected by such a nerf.

Quoted from Destiny_Devil:

Slower start even with 14 villagers and wood trickle age up. Leads to slow Fortress times.
They have nowhere close to the best Colonial cavalry. Cossacks suck. Compare them to Axe Riders, Coyote Runners or Hussars and they're a waste of resources.
Strelets are one of (not the) best Colonial light infantry units, yes, yet this is irrelevant because most civs who face Russia, take advantage of their slower start and race to Fortress, where the Strelet advantage all but disappears. Strelets also train quite slowly in TWC.
These more cost effective Muskets are also weak and train slowly. I'm fairly certain that every Russian player would trade them for regular Muskets. But regardless of whether this is true or not, these more cost effective Muskets aren't enough of an advantage to outweigh the disadvantages of the civ.
In addition to what you listed, Russians have very poor anti-cavalry options. Even their Mercs are either very expensive (Kalmuks) or poor in effectiveness (Manchu). Their regular anti-cav, Cavalry Archers, are quite horrible. Much worse than they appear on paper, as is the case with all archer units that have a wind up animation. In addition to that, Cavalry Archers also have much slower speed than other ranged cavalry. They have trouble catching even to Cuirassiers, and sometimes can't even get a shot off when they do, because the target is out of range by the time they draw the bow.
Russia even with their faster training villagers, can outboom an Ottoman or a Spanish player, but they have no hope against a Brit, Dutch or Aztec/Iroquois player. I don't think this particular issue needs changing, though.

Now, I don't play Russia, but I play against them, and I find them an easy target, unless I royally screw up somehow (in which case it's my fault). The easiest of all the civs so far in 1.03.

Quoted from Destiny_Devil:

I'm sorry but your mathematical proof means absolutely zilch to me, when I observe a completely different result in actual gameplay. Explain to me how AA/card upgraded Guard Janissaries lose to Champion Eagle Knights. Explain to me how AA/card upgraded Veteran Abus Guns lose to Elite Eagle Knights in roughly equal numbers? Then try and sell me again the idea that Eagle Knights are fine.

Quoted from George_uk:

Those weren't my words. I stated Ruyters lost their uniqueness in that change (that I still disagree with). It did nothing to reduce their effectiveness. Just like Abus effectiveness is not increasing one bit.

Quote:

With this they'd do 5 damage per shot to artillery. What a great artillery counter!

yes but they're slow age is made up for by they're ability to mass enough strelets to fight off any fast rush very quickly, and if theres cavalry about they have blockhouses and tc in they're base to deal with it. and then they can train musks who's higher cost effectivness is most useful at this point in the game. And if cossacks are so useless then why are you only slightly boosting them while enourmously boosting coyotes, cossacks are good, generally 1 pop versions of units are strong, take erks for example, and imo ruyters are strong too, but they die easier than goons due to only 10% rr, to goons 30%. hussars cost 276 cossacks cost 214 VS, cossacks have 50% pop cost of hussars, 80% the cost, over 80% the attack, over 70% hp and 200% the rr. Russia aren't a booming civ if your still unaware of this fact, which wouldn't surprise me, the pop inefficency of they're units makes it stupid to do so, wereas the ones you stated are booming civs so it makes sense they would be able to outboom a russian player, see how that works.

So your just going to ignore the mathmetical proof that musks beat erks, which means jans must beat them better since they have alot more hp and a higher damage for only a 25 gold increase in cost. Thus I am going to ignore your argument. Does the medicine taste nice?

Quote:

These are almost entirely unrelated.

The lancer has an effective counter in the forum of RC and CA, Halbs and Musks do ok. This is the only think that seperates it from regular Cav, that it can also break even/beat HI. As a result it is worse against other cav.

The lancer does not beat its counters too easily.

The abus was entirely diffrent because its counter was a melee unit and because it was ranged it could always be blocked while it wrecked havoc on the opposing side. The Lancer must actually engage its opponent and is vulneralbe to a ranged counter. In order to attack it must be attackable by a counter.

Quote:

(1) This was proved to be untrue, Otto is actually beating French at the highest levels.

(2) Boosting Otto units will not help Russia beat them

Quote:

+1

Quote:

that would be unexplanable, because that can not happen.

Veteran abus = 195 ranged HP , 36 dmg to eagle

Elite eagle = 180 hp, 34 dmg to abus

Veteran abus wins

veteran abus + flint lock + 20% hp card + paper cartridge + 15% dmg card = 243.75 ranged hp, 45 dmg to eagle

Elite Eagle with 3 knight card = 234 hp, 44.2 dmg/3sec

Veteran abus wins

I would like to see a recording of your described scenario happening in "actual game".

(Note: it is highly unlikely Aztec player would include all 3 knight cards as they all take age3 slot, but otto can include AA+arthp+artatt with a easier time if it is an semi-FF deck where he doesnt need all 6 crate cards.)

also ulti abus have 3 upgrade cards, +15 attack, + 15 hp and + 20 hp

Okay nerving *LI attack vs cannons by over 2 times, is a nerf to all *LI except abus guns. So compared to other *LI, abus get an enormous boost. If you dont want to call that an indirect boost, fine, we see it different

Then lancers, look from this point:

Lancers lose to HI cost effectively
Lancers lose to EVERY cav cost effectively
Lancers suck at raiding (compared to other cav)
Lancers suck vs cannons (compared to other cav)

So i guess they need a boost...

More serious: Lancers are fine imo. That spain is broken, isnt because of lancers. Lancers perform vs LI like all cav should do. Yes they are decent vs some HI (wont use them vs pikes), but they lose to other melee cav.

Fang the Tame Coyote -2 second train time
Honcho the Pet Grizzly + 1 hand attack
Janey the Pet Jaguar 1.5x vs cavalry
Buttercup the Pet Cougar 4.5 speed
Buck the Tame Wolf -15% efficiency
Big Jerome the Tame Polar Bear +5 Line Of Sight
Lazerbear -10 food cost

Abus range is considerably higher than eagle range too, unless you boost with card... which takes up yet another fortress card slot AND costs you 1000 gold.

Quote:

1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.03 -> 3/26/2007 no mirrorCiv Games Win %
Iroquois 730 439 60.14%
Sioux 820 453 55.24%
Ottoman 943 509 53.98%
Spanish 951 476 50.05%
Aztec 934 451 48.29%
French 1343 651 48.47%
Dutch 1030 490 47.57%
Russian 391 184 47.06%
German 463 211 45.57%
Portuguese 558 249 44.62%
British 577 257 44.54%
Total 8740 4370

Spain=Balanced

[This message has been edited by Scamander (edited 03-28-2007 @ 05:24 PM).]

You are right, i allready doubted they were still really op, but i was too lasy to check, so preferred to be on safe side

Spanish are still closer to op then up, so es should watch they dont get a boost, but a real nerf isnt needed imo

My personal wish is that they will restore the Abus Gun's former glory, except maybe just a tiny bit of a nerf left in them.

I also hope for the Portuguese to be restored so more people play as them.

[This message has been edited by Natron (edited 03-28-2007 @ 06:10 PM).]

Spain is balanced and Lancers are only average?
Did you ever face lancers with the Caballero Upgrade when all you had were Muskets and Pikes cause your Goons just die to Rods and Skirms? Lancers are very strong, ignore Nightscream who claims that War Dogs are useless.
So according to that win percent bs, dutch are UP cause they have a lower win pecentage than Spain who are balanced? And Sioux are OP?

And now to those guys who always say that Russian Muskets are more cost-effective than other Muskets:
This
is
simply
not
true
at
all.
They are nowhere as good as normal Muskets. They "win" vs cav, true, but normal Muskets do wayyyyyyy better. As Blue_Gaiden said at ages:
On paper, even communism looks perfect, but sukks in reality.
The same is true for Russian Musks, this little amount of hp they have less makes them much more vulnerable and its not as if the Russian economy was sooooo damn good to spam Musks all day long, either Musks OR Villagers for the first 8 Minutes. When you finally have the economy to spam Musks and Vills altogether, your opponent is like 5 Vills ahead you if he did his thing right...
You wont outboom an opponent in Colonial.
Strelets ARE good but the 17 Vil-Age UP is sooo slow, Strelets spwn sooo slow and dont help you out vs any FF except the Aztec One.
Cosaks are indeed strong imo, I tend to use them more and more, they pwn in my eyes^^

[This message has been edited by SchuLz (edited 03-28-2007 @ 06:00 PM).]

As Rusia nowadays, i age up with 14 Settler
so as soon as i reach age 2 i make my forst bach of 10 strelet, with 1 pop left y send 5 cossak, i raid wih them and protect my base with strelet.

[This message has been edited by Eicho (edited 03-28-2007 @ 06:23 PM).]

Quote:

agreed. however u use this reasoning very ineffectively.

a civ usually does have an easy->very easy time against civs lower than it, and a hard->very hard time against civs above it (barring some "counter-civ" situations).

if this is the case, this civ should not be outrageously boosted, everything around it should be nerfed/boosted accordingly (1.02 france). if you uberboost this middle-pack civ (which by the way is the 3rd civ currently in win % although i will say the data set is still fairly small) then you get a top civ that has an easy time against EVERYTHING (iro). thats even worse. and if you dont believe this would happen if all of your changes were made, just look at germany. from the top civ, its core unit was nerfed, some of its other units were slightly nerfed, and its overall strategy, FF'ing, was nerfed. 3 aspects dropped it like a rock to the bottom. you propose boosting ottos core unit (abus), and boosting ALL (did any otto unit go unboosted?) of its other units. you know that is ridiculous.

i do think an eventual goal would be to make every unit in the game viable in some way, but NOT at the expense of the most OP civ the game would have ever seen.

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 03-28-2007 @ 07:58 PM).]

German shipments have the normal rate for the fist 3-4 shipments then it changes to the slower rate.

eagles are by no means balanced, i played a friend who played aztec as french. fully upgraded skirms (with both HC cards shipped + AA and all armory upgrades) almost broke even with ERK. the thing is, skirms arent fast, skirms cant raid and skirms dont own every other unit.

eagles are not balanced.

Quoted from Ender_Ward:

So, to balance the game, you nerf three of the four civilizations over you, ignore most civilizations which you have an easy time, and directly boost Ottomans?

Quoted from Ender_Ward:

Mathematical proofs are facts, while your gameplay observation is just your point of view. And as ulimitsu has shown, Abus should still beat Eagle Knights... specially when both are full upgraded. Its beyond me arguing if Abus was overnerfed or Eagle Knights are far too good, but Abus do just as fine against Eagle Knights, being fine as far as any Skirmisher unit can go.

And I think we're just seeing an interpretation of my first point. I mean, you're trying to fix every single screw you see in the game... instead of seeing it as a whole and using simple changes to "balance out the unbalances". Hell, as I see it, you're going against yourself balancing it "mathematically" - it doesn't matter if X civ or Y is balanced in actual gameplay, but you have to fix every single of their units (like Aztecs or Ottos), even thought this might just screw up things more, resulting into unexpected results!

The Arrow Knight example is the best. So this unit which is supposed to take out Artillery should do less than 1/4 of the damage an Abus does? Of course, when you realize this, you'll suggest to increase their multipliers or just give them siege damage... but what will you do when you figure out that no one uses Rodeleros, Ottos are OP, Aztec BB rush is uncounterable? Or when someone tells you the Nootka aren't the best native (They have been nerfed already anyway) or that, I don't know, British FU Grenadiers will be the new War Wagons? Hell, I have no idea if those things I just said will be true, but if you implement this way of patching, soon you'll have to patch in your own ideas...

Well, this patch has just been... patched! So I agree with Beatnik Joe it might be too early to get into conclusive... conclusions! But some things I think (and many will probably "agree" with your changes) about it:

Macehualtins are not good enough late game, Eagle Knights are far too good.

Outlaws need some improvement. I'd keep the high pop, but increase their status significantly.

Cuirassiers are far too good late game. A viable solution could be nerfing Thoroughbreds, in the sense it gives Cuirassiers some kind of disvantage. Extra train time/cost or less speed are the best I can think of.

Barbary Corsairs, Privateers, Comanches, Maya Holcan Spearman and Spanish Bucaneers are the most stupidly UP units this game has ever had!

Great House is OP. Light Cannons are OP. 22 Cree/Cherokee are OP. 25 Infinite Cree/Cherokee is so UP its a joke. In fact, all infinite shipments are a joke...

Native Treaties didn't need any nerf at all.

That's already something...

---

ESO - Walker

>> Napoleonic Era --> Visit their Homepage!
"Holy *****" > Thunder (Ensemble Studios)

Retired from AoE3. But I do play AoK HD in Steam now and then.

^^^ 600 Infinite aztec gold is good if oyu are planing to stay some time in age 2...:P