A rush isn't just a strategy where you attack fast. There are TYPES OF RUSHES.

Flush - Spears/Skirms in Feudal, and then adjusting to Scouts/Archers later. Please read the Flush thread that's Stickied.

Grush - Water maps only. Hit Feudal fast, and start pumping Galleys from three to five Docks.

Krush - Knight Rush. Rarely used, but it uses an FC to Castle at around the 16 minute mark, and pumps a few Knights from one or two Stables.

Trush - Tower Rush. Not a bad strategy, but very fragile. Generally speaking, it Feudals faster than the Flush, and uses Towers to hit your opponent.

And so forth.

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It takes two Pikes to kill a Knight. Horrible. Scorps can't do anything to Knights in Castle. I also never told you to rush with Knights, I told you to pump Knights from a bunch of Stables after you hit Castle, after you've Flushed.

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Why are you comparing a Castle age unit to an Imp unit? Compare the Paladin to the Champ, and then you'll see.

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You can't rush with Longbows unless you are more or less able to Castle at 16 minutes, drop a Castle IMMEDIATELY on your opponent, and then make Longbows. Attacking with Longbows much, much later with Knights and Monks is far from a "rush".

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Like I said, it depends on the rush you're attempting, be it a Flush, Grush, etc. There is no general "rush" strategy, there are types of rushes. Attacking fast and early would be considered a "rush" (somewhat, depending on the units used), but not every attack is considered a "rush".

I'm just trying to make conversation not get all Technical. So then what should my subject be?

I'm not getting "all technical" either, but your definition of a "rush" is quite vague.

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That question is like asking what the best unit is; it varies from person to person.

if the enemy has bombard cannons you waited too long to rush

Lol you sure quote alot and use "quotes" Extensively. Ok i get your point, so what should i talk about then?

The best unit for rushing is the one that wins you the game. (I agree with Stevay here, the question is quite vague).

[This message has been edited by hZ_Unhy (edited 10-08-2003 @ 11:12 PM).]

In my opinion the best unit to rush with is the Scout. At 13:30, you can attack their wood or gold with 4 Scouts. If they are unprepared with Spears that early on, thats puts them about 3 villagers behind (about how many they will loose), and they will also be behind in wood. Like said before, it's like asking what the best unit is, this is just my opinion.

You forgot one thing metallica villagers can take down a villager easily. Unless he knows that, that's an okay strategy

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Huh?

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I think he means "Villagers can take down a Scout" easily.

Obviously, a group of Vils can take out one Scout pretty fast, but with a group of a few Feudal Scouts early on (especially if you're going Mongols for a Scout-first Flush or a 20 minute Castle), they can wreck some havoc with that attack bonus they get upon hitting Feudal. They can easily hit a Vil, run away, hit that Vil, run away, and then kill that Vil, and run away. Fighting the Scouts also distracts the Vils for a few seconds; they're not gathering resources, which is wasting valuable Vil seconds.

lol ya thats what i meant. Your too smart. oh and heres my thing on mamelukes vs cats.

http://www.geocities.com/chewmen_ldr/BloodandVictory/see_just_look_at_this.htm

Please keep all posts relating to a certain topic in that thread.

But scouts are very expensive for a feudal unit. They need 80 food, plus stables as a prerequisite. (not really counting Bloodlines and blacksmith techs. If villagers surround them and whelm them over, then those are resources down a sewer!

Skirms and spears are best for flushing. They are cheap as chips, and difficult to counter. The skirms defend the spears against archers, and the spears protect the skirms against scouts.

The best flushing combo needs to include scouts. Scouts are the best unit in Feudal, even though they cost 80 food. They can raid villagers and run away just when you think you are going to try to kill it. Skirms and Spears get countered by Scouts and Archers with good micro.

Why not rush with both spears and scouts? thats a hard combo to counter.

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Probably because Scouts are so expensive that nobody could afford to. I think a civ that has a hunting bonus like the Mongols (speed) or Goths (carrying) can put about 6 bloodlined scouts in the other guy's base at around 12:30 minutes if they do a POP 20 but asking for spears also is just too much.

Spears are the worst raiding unit possible. Use them to protect your forward builders while you put up stables and ranges, then use them to protect your skirms and vills from scouts. You shouldn't need to make more than 6 in feudal, unless your opponent makes ALOT of scouts.
Even the bonused Japanese and Viking spears aren't effective raiders. Goth spears are cheap enough that it's worth making some just to irritate the villies, if you aren't making maa's from all the rax. I've considered trying a 3 rax spear "flood" with Goths, but have yet to try it. Has this worked for anyone?

alrighty then.

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Because it loses to skirms/spears really quickly.

Scouts and skirms would do better. If you could micro, scouts/skirms > skirm/spear.

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Scouts/Archers own Spears/Skirms. FU Feudal Archers can already stand their ground against Skirms, and they can also definitely take out the Spears. The Scouts can run around the Spears, hack a few Skirms, and run away again.

Spears/Skirms are great for starting off, since they're both quite cheap, but Scouts/Archers really shine later on in Feudal. Those Archers might also be needed when you hit Castle; a bunch of Knights supported by Crossbows is not something to laugh at.

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Uh, not so fast...we need some context here.

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But they die against FU skirms in equal numbers and skirms have a shorter build time.

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That depends entirely on who micros better -- it could just as easily be the other way around, with the scouts getting outmaneuvered and scambling away from the spears while the skirms wipe out the archers.

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Now we're getting somewhere!

Its a time and resource factor. If your initial flush (or defense against the flush, since we don't know where the fighting is taking place) is successful and you can keep the pressure on (or off) until you have 15-20 farms and 3-4 guys on gold, blah, blah blah...yes, you can field enough FU archers and bloodlined scouts to turn the tide against the skirms/spears.

So the issue isn't arguing over who owns who, its about growing your eco, shifting to gold when appropriate and microing better. One thing is for sure though -- the scouts/achers combo is far better for killing vils, even if their actual performance against spears/skirms is less clear.