Quoted from invent00r:

However, if a player plays one of the most crappy gods, all game long, he will certainly learn how to take the full advantage of his unique bonuses

Any player will learn that with any god if he plays his god seriously. The difference is only on which skill (rating) level he does. For instance, if your talents (intelligence, speed, mouse dexterity, diligence) allow you to reach a max rating of 1700 with Poseidon and then you will play him to the best of his abilities within your biological boundaries, then you might be able to reach 1780 with Isis. At this higher level your opponents will be so tough and challenging that you will need to max out your Isis skills just like you maxed out your Possy skills. In the end, you will learn to max out either god, but the better god will still lead you to the higher rating.

The only exception would be you hitting the absolute ladder #1 position with a suboptimal god, where there are no greater challenges that could require you to play a better god. However, few people manage to ever get there, and those that do usually do not stay up there for a long time. They belong to the elite, and in one decisive game had luck and map on their side, so they reached #1 until the next competitor took it away from them. The only player that I remember that remained #1 for months was GP_Intel, and he played Isis, the best god in the game, combining outstanding skill with the best god traits that the game has to offer.

Quoted from invent00r:

There is no way a equal numbered hops + tox vs RC + TA would be won by norse.

I disagree.

Quoted from invent00r:

Toxotes range is of 15 meters where TA range is 9 meters. So toxotes can be 6 meters behind Hoplites and still reach TA.

The Norse compensates for that by far superior RC speed, giving him the edge in the micro battle. But I agree that this is a matter of exact numbers and army composition. In really huge numbers tox beat RC pop-wise, so if you assume big armies on both sides and reduce your number of hops to near zero, replacing them with tox, then you will win pop-wise. However, such an approach would defeat your argumentation that hops are the superior backbone unit that makes the difference against Norse. As long as your hops make up at least 50% of your hop/tox army, I am confident that I can win this with an army that includes at least 50% RC.

Quoted from invent00r:

At the beggining of the battle, toxotes are immediately capable of hitting the TA due to much larger range.

At the beginning of the battle, the RC are riding up towards the tox and try to encircle them while the TA are still out of range. While doing this the RC use their superior speed to outmaneuver the hops, and the tox miss the moving RC because RC speed is greater than 5.0. The hops are forced to stay close to the tox in order to protect them, so they cannot intercept the RC early. The tox are well-advised not to maintain a closed line, or the RC will have an easy time attacking from behind with the slow hops being unable to prevent it. As melee combat begins, TA close in and join the battle. Your tox fire at the RC with priority, because these are closer and have the higher attack. This means that your tox fire at the targets against which they are least effective. You need to compensate by microing them manually, but this is very hard, as you will have to target every TA manually. In order for your tox to operate at full efficiency, you need to disperse their fire over several TA, because focus-fire is inefficient against low-hp units like TA (you lose too much arrow fire in the killing volley, because all arrows that hit the target when its hp count is already zero are lost). Doing all this manually in a large battle with many units is a nightmare and impossible for a human being to achieve. Whenever a TA dies, your tox will immediately target another RC again. Waypointing them over several TA is not really viable either, because this is buggily implemented in AoM, so in many cases your tox will start running forward rather than attacking the next TA.

Quoted from invent00r:

Unfortunately, you didn't go deep enough.

I guess this time I did.

Quoted from invent00r:

Lets add some numbers to the mix.

10 TA can kill 1 Hoplite in about 10 strikes.

Are you on dope?

I will make you a present of 2 TA and settle with only 8 TA attacking your hoplite:

TA base damage: 4.5

TA multiplier against hoplites & myrmidons: 2.75x

Hoplite base hack armor: 35%

Total TA damage against hoplite: (4.5 x 2.75) x (1 - 0.35) = 12.375 x 0.65 = 8.04

8 TA doing 8.04 damage each in 2 strokes means: 8 x 8.04 x 2 = 128 damage done

Base hoplite hp: 115

Your hop is dead after 2 seconds, and that is with only 8 TA attacking him.

Quoted from invent00r:

Also, considering the training time, Greek gets a huge advantage over Norse.

A training time of 14 (hop) or 15 (tox) is not a "huge" advantage over 16 (TA) and 18 (RC). It is an advantage, yes, but Greek is nailed down to the unit composition that your building choice dictates. I can start out with early ulfens if I like, easily outspamming you with a training time of only 9 per ulf, and tailor my unit composition to your army later. I can see what buildings you have and flexibly make the appropiate counter-units, while you can use your buildings only for the units they were made for. Later in the game you can have more buildings of all sorts, but by then I have plenty of longhouses, so training time becomes less of a factor. And I still keep my flexibility, being able to use all my longhouses to quickly train a full round of RC or TA, while you remain restricted.

---

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)

Regarding the gods matter. I believe that the difficulty of progress and learning, that one has with the god he is focusing is exponencial. It will get harder to one player reach 1850 from 1800 than reaching 1650 from 1600.
However, there will be always something missing that would make ones gameplay style better and more efficient.

Anyways, I am sure you agree with me, that todays best players are not even close to the experts that played AoM in its prime years.

Are you on dope?

I will make you a present of 2 TA and settle with only 8 TA attacking your hoplite:

Ok. Never though my calculations would be so far off. I have no idea where I got the 10 strikes from. 11 TA kill in 1 strike for sure.

Anyways, your calculations are also incorrect. Phew.

So. If I were you I will make me a present of 4 TA and settle with only 6 TA attacking my hoplite:
I love presents. They make me happy.

Total TA damage against hoplite: (4.5 x 2.75 + 4.5) x (1 - 0.35) = 16.875 x 0.65 = 10,96875 Rounded to 11.

6 TA doing 11 damage in 2 stroke means: 6 x 11 x 2 = 132 damage done

At the beginning of the battle, the RC are riding up towards the tox and try to encircle them while the TA are still out of range. While doing this the RC use their superior speed to outmaneuver the hops, and the tox miss the moving RC because RC speed is greater than 5.0. The hops are forced to stay close to the tox in order to protect them, so they cannot intercept the RC early.

You can only have this much freedom if you are facing Zeus army in a open space. The speed of my Hoplites aren't as slow as they seem, since when RC are trying to circle around Toxotes, avoiding Hoplites, RC need to travel a larger area.
And what happens if I put them in box formation? - Not really viable but just mentioning.

Taking 10 Hoplites + 10 Toxotes and puting out of game context vs 10 RC + 10 TA, with nothing but free room. Then Norse speed will prove his value. If this never happened, noone would be playing Norse.

I am not handing you the victory yet tho.

If we are to consider, all the variables, that allow 2 players to reach a similar battle, in a possible Zeus vs Norse game, the outcome favors Zeus.

Equal Advance times.

Building time of Academy: 23 seconds
Building time of Archery Range: 23 seconds
Building time of Longhouse: 28 seconds

Zeus gets a 5 seconds head-start in the military production.

Now a good Zeus player will do atleast 2 Academies and 2 Archery Range. A Norse, well, lets consider 4 Longhouses built by 2 hersirs + 2 ulfsarks.

After 1 minute:
Zeus: 8 Toxotes + 8 Hop + Jason
Norse: 6 TA + 6 RC + 2 Hersirs + 2 Ulfsarks (40% done TA; 5% done RC) Considering the 5 second penalty.

So, taking this possible real-game situation, Norse isn't outnumbered but Zeus toxotes are expected to kill both TA and Ulfsark, and with 8 Hops protecting the toxotes from 6 RC, Norse is expected to retreat.

If Norse choses to build Ulf.
then:
After 1 minute:
Zeus: 8 Toxotes + 8 Hop + Jason
Norse: 26 Ulfsarks + 2 Hersir

Norse will win, but then again, you would need to gather 1200 Food in just one minute. And still have a strong Classical eco for 4 longhouses. =O.

Regarding limited unit type per building, I see no downfall in having a solid consistent Infantry + Archer army all game long.

And ultimately, if Zeus is in trouble. He just casts Restoration or Cease Fire. Which will decide the outcome of the battle.


Edit: Forgot my name tag.
-invent00r

[This message has been edited by invent00r (edited 09-06-2007 @ 01:13 PM).]

Invent00r do you play TT? If so what is your account?

Quoted from invent00r:

Anyways, I am sure you agree with me, that todays best players are not even close to the experts that played AoM in its prime years.

No, I do not. In fact, I believe that the skill of both current and former elite players is so far beyond your and my skill that we cannot even tell. I agree that the somehow reduced player base makes it likely that today's excellence is not equal to that of former times, but we cannot be sure of that. We will never see a modern elite player play against Hope or GP_Intel, so we cannot tell the outcome.

I believe that GP_Intel was the most exceptional AoT player of all times, because he did not only manage to claim the #1 position, he could also defend it for months. But aside from him, I am not convinced that today's #1 would certainly lose to a Hope or Ourk. Fact is that we will never know.

Quoted from invent00r:

Anyways, your calculations are also incorrect.

No, they are not.

Quoted from invent00r:

Total TA damage against hoplite: (4.5 x 2.75 + 4.5) x (1 - 0.35) = 16.875 x 0.65 = 10,96875 Rounded to 11.

I have no idea where you take those additional 4.5 from, but they are false. TA get a 2.75x multiplier against hoplites, or do +175% damage against hoplites. They do not do +175% plus another +100% against hoplites.

Quoted from invent00r:

You can only have this much freedom if you are facing Zeus army in a open space.

Why do you talk about Zeus here? The comparison was Norse backbone unit vs Greek backbone unit, not Norse backbone unit vs Zeus backbone unit. It is always inappropiate to factor in godly bonuses when comparing the value of units, because godly bonuses always come at the price of not getting the bonuses that the alternative gods would have given you. These bonuses may be of totally different nature, like gathering increases or something, but you lose them by not choosing their god. So if you say that a Zeus hop is better because he is faster and does bonus damage against buildings, then I respond that he is also worse because he makes your archers and buildings weaker, as getting him means losing the benefits that you would have obtained if you had chosen Hades instead. The only exception that I can think of is the ulfsark, because no matter which main god you choose, you will always get some sort of improvement for your ulfs, so you can assume that a real-game ulf is always a little bit better than the stock ulf on the paper (provided you research the corresponding benefits that you have access to).

This discussion was about standard Greek hoplites against standard Norse RC. And stock hops are a whole lot slower than RC.

Quoted from invent00r:

And what happens if I put them in box formation? - Not really viable but just mentioning.

Since you agree yourself that this is not really viable because box formation horribly sucks in real combat, I think there is no need to discuss it or anyhow take it into consideration.

Quoted from invent00r:

Taking 10 Hoplites + 10 Toxotes and puting out of game context vs 10 RC + 10 TA, with nothing but free room.

Most maps offer lot sof free space to have combat on. Alfheim is pretty much the only exception, perhaps also Medi when it comes to land-based warfare. However, I agree that in narrow terrain, which can also be caused by deliberate placing of buildings, tox are at an advantage. The races just are not all the same. Norse have other strengths, but are at a disadvantage in narrow terrain until they finally get ballistas.

According to your early-game build up situation, I agree that Greek has a slight advantage here. However, this is necessary because Greek is so restricted choosing their units. A Norse can always check what buildings the Greek made and design an appropiate counter-army against that. Greek military needs to be strong enough to fight the Norse army anyway, which requires the basic Greek troops to be somewhat stronger than those of the Norse, because they are going to be countered appropiately from the very start. Otherwise the Greek race would not stand a chance against Norse.

You see that the concepts behind the two races are totally different, which is a great factor that makes this game fun. Greek: powerful but slow troops and unflexible production. Norse: Fast troops, most versatile production of all races in the game, but weaker mainline units.

But not even that is entirely true, as RC > hippikons. However, the hipps are easier to control due to lower numbers and gain the edge in narrow terrain.

Now the Norse needs to use the versatility of his longhouses to compensate for the weaker base strength of his units. You could also say that his units may be basically weaker, but he has the right ones against what his opponent has. This may make the Norse harder to play, because you cannot stupidly pump out the only troops that your production buildings are capable of training; you always need to adapt very flexibly.

Quoted from invent00r:

Regarding limited unit type per building, I see no downfall in having a solid consistent Infantry + Archer army all game long.

Just to give you one of multiple pointers, with that unit composition the enemy can easily outrun you, and you lack fast units for raiding. If you want those, you will have to make stables in addition (or use the benefits of a god by getting cents, but the god that provides them otherwise benefits your cavalry, so you lose a major bonus of him by going full inf/archer). If you do make stables in addition, you can finally train some hipps for raiding, but again you will be able to use these stables only to make hipps, even if you want more hops for your main army.

Quoted from invent00r:

And ultimately, if Zeus is in trouble. He just casts Restoration or Cease Fire. Which will decide the outcome of the battle.

Yes. Other gods have god powers of their own, which will also serve them nicely. For instance, aside from one-time restoration Zeus has no means of healing his units other than temple healing which requires another subgod and is so crappy that it is near negligible in real games. Nothing in comparison to Forseti's healing spring or Freyja's healing valks.

But again, we are going off topic. Zeus has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. This is about Greek in general vs Norse in general.

Looking at editor Dap it seems as if the attack is 11~ Regardless 8 TA still kill 1 hoplite in less then 2 seconds.

I have not measured their firing rate. Damages (well, most of them) are listed per second, not per single attack. As far as I remember, the ulfsark has 2 different slashes, between he randomly alternates. One of them does more damage than the other. But in average, the ulf does the listed 9 damage per second.

Likewise, I consider it well possible that TA attack per throw varies, or that TA throw less often than once per second.