Empire: Total War Heaven

Being the little bully on the block.

I think North Korea are playing a very dangerous game. They are trying to test South Korea and America's patience. Maybe the North Koreans feel all the Americans can do is launch a "stern condemantion" and that is it.

But I have seen the pictures of the shelling on that island and it is pretty extensive. I mean the South Koreans have said dozens of shells were fired. I mean twenty-fur-thirty six shells will do a lot of damage when fired at a civilian population. From what the BBC has said two South Korean marines have been killed and sixteen wounded.

Due to pressure from the South Korean public they will want a response: especially as the South Koreans did little after the North Korean likely sank one of their warships.

[This message has been edited by Legion Of Hell (edited 11-23-2010 @ 08:10 AM).]

No idea what they're trying to achieve here.

I just want to see N Korea crushed into dust, its people free to act and speak as they please, etc. Perhaps this time it finally went too far, and we would see the end of N Korea. Hmmmm...would China interfere if open war breaks out?

China and the US cannot take opposite sides for economic reasons, so I do wonder what the North Korean government hopes to achieve from this. Unless of course this has nothing to do with the government at all and is just a terrorist attack.

[This message has been edited by Edorix (edited 11-23-2010 @ 10:58 AM).]

NK better watch it, the same on a much larger scale might happen to them also...

Does that mean Justin Beiber's North Korean tour is cancelled?
I voted for him to tour North Korea!

No idea what they're trying to achieve here.

Make a show and get the US to bribe them to play nice.

NK better watch it, the same on a much larger scale might happen to them also...

Not going to happen.

Make a show and get the US to bribe them to play nice.

Ahh...

I wonder how far up the NK chain of command the units that started the exchange had to go before firing was authorized.

Makes me think about how the Japanese high command was pushed into going to war against their better judgement by the fanatic junior officers so they would not appear weak.

Methinks NK has trouble controlling it's military.

Ol' Kim was just letting the military have their fun. Besides, with them on side his son's succession is guaranteed.

I voted for him to tour North Korea!

I personally voted over 100 times for that.



Back on topic: Any coincidence this happened what, a few days after they showed the world they had isotopes?

They are idiots brainwashed into thinking that a deformed little man is God's Gift to Mankind, the True Great Leader.

The leaders know that the Americans and South Koreans will do nothing in reply- China guarantees that. So in the end, they have proved to their people that they are so strong that they can do what they wish and the world cowers at their feet.

In the meantime, ships carrying grain and other food stuff donated by South Korea and the West to North Korea should mysteriously vanish or change course for better markets...

Artillery, tanks, rifles, and other military equipment are nice toys to have, but you cannot eat them. I say leave them to their toys. Bullets and BBQ sauce is not too bad, I hear. Then, when they starve, maybe they will realize their Great and Wonderful All-Powerful Leader cannot deliver food by his mere desires.

[This message has been edited by Terikel Grayhair (edited 11-24-2010 @ 11:25 AM).]

I don't think China really cares like it once did. Now China's moved onto the world stage as an accepted power and away from pure Communism, North Korea is not really an ally or pro, but now, has become a drag on the Chinese. North Korean refugees destabilise a very important Chinese industrial area, and they've stopped giving the North Koreans any sort of proper military aid for decades.

I don't think China wants US or ROK troops on its border. That's enough reason for them to try to block any military action against North Korea. ON the other hand, their current neighbor is making a bit of an ass of itself, and as mentioned, hanging on Chinese tailcoats like an unwanted bastard child, dragging down China's rising image.

But, on the other hand, South Korea would spend the next twenty years entirely internalising. It would remove South Korea as any sort of threat for many years to come as they tryed to play sixty years of catch up in the North.

Similarly, with NK out of the way, the RoK and Japan have less reasons for American troops in the first place, and when South Korea emerges from its crysalis as a viable power to counter the Japanese, as there's no love lost between the two nations.

If N Korea does get involved in a war, China will have to be as well (communist habits die hard), so China will try its best to prevent any of that - it'd disrupt the regional economy, of which China obviously cares too much. Open war is thus highly unlikely.

One of the bigger tantrums thrown by NK, methinks. Nothing might happen at all from this, due to China's effort. Though it would have to be an enormous one this time.

Open war would be disastrous for all concerned. The North Koreans surely realise this. They're just pushing the South to gain more concessions. They think they have a stronger hand than the South. Also, there's almost certainly an internal political game being played here; the succession problem is looming, and the Dear Leader wants to appear strong and retain military support for his anointed successor.

A war would undoubtedly end in North Korea's collapse. But the consequences for the South would be just as devastating.

There would have to be reunification; a full-scale war would end with the overthrow of the current regime. North Korea isn't capable of standing on its own feet; as it is it's propped up with international and South Korean aid, including food for its populace.

The Chinese would doubtless set a number of conditions, but overall they probably wouldn't have too much of a problem with reunification, in the sense of intervening militarily, provided no US troops were stationed anywhere near their border.

The reason for this is simple: even if the South wins, it loses. Seoul, the economic and political capital of the Republic of Korea, is extremely close to the 38th Parallel. A war would be catastrophic. Even assuming Seoul is largely untouched, which seems unlikely given the vast number of batteries and missiles aimed at it, the North is so backward and undeveloped that it would be a serious drain on the South Korean economy. East Germany was bad enough, but it was far more developed than the DPRK.

Further, the whole rationale for US forces being present in South Korea (to the total of about 28,000 men) is to protect the South from North Korean aggression. Remove North Korea from the equation, and it's an open question how long those troops will remain there.

Even if US troops are removed from th eborder, you have ROK troops, very closely allied to the US at the front door and the US is easily capable of shipping troops there.

True. I'm not saying China would be happy about that sort of scenario, I'm just suggesting they wouldn't ceteris paribus think it worth going to war over. They're far more likely to do everything possible to stop a conflict; if it actually got so bad that North Korea did attack the South, it would mean that China had already lost all of its remaining influence over the DPRK.

An enlarged and unified Korea, struggling to integrate an impoverished backwater, would not in any meaningful way be a threat to the PRC for quite some time.

Similarly, with NK out of the way, the RoK and Japan have less reasons for American troops in the first place, and when South Korea emerges from its crysalis as a viable power to counter the Japanese, as there's no love lost between the two nations.

You would hope that the two countries would be able to put past events behind them without needing US troops in a pretty good position in both countries to defuse a conflict.

The question that plagues my mind if a war brokeout is would China take the chance to take some areas of North Korea? Their economy would be able to take the strain of having to update the backwaters into strong regions and the populace wouldn't complain - it would be another Commie regime, except this one could actually provide food.

China would never accept US troops on its borders anywhere, so I doubt that if the North fell, the Chinese would stand idly by.

Further, the whole rationale for US forces being present in South Korea (to the total of about 28,000 men) is to protect the South from North Korean aggression. Remove North Korea from the equation, and it's an open question how long those troops will remain there.

The force would be downsized, no question. Troops are based in both as a deterrence to NK aggression - unless China suddenly became war-mongering and eyed up Korea as another province, the troops would be scaled back and probably reposted to Iraq or Afghanistan.

The question that plagues my mind if a war brokeout is would China take the chance to take some areas of North Korea? Their economy would be able to take the strain of having to update the backwaters into strong regions and the populace wouldn't complain - it would be another Commie regime, except this one could actually provide food

Suppose NK falls in a war and we go all the way up the pensinsula like we did in the '50s. Would China intervene or could they be bribed with the promise to let them have administrative and reconstruction responsibilities for a so-many mile deep stretch from their border with NK?
If they accepted that it would compel them to detain any DPRK forces that retreated that far up. They couldn't let any guerilla wars be started because of a group of psycho NK military remnants. No, no, no, it would too badly disrupt the economic opportunities that would spring up after the war.

Regardless, SK and the US have got to get on better diplomatic footing with China.

If China intervened, they'd lose their biggest trade partners, the EU and US (assuming that most European countries will be aligned towards South Korea)

If China intervened, they'd lose their biggest trade partners, the EU and US

Probably, which is why they'll spend every last bit of influence they've got to make sure that a war won't happen, so they don't have to intervene.

Would China intervene or could they be bribed with the promise to let them have administrative and reconstruction responsibilities for a so-many mile deep stretch from their border with NK?

I rather believe they'll help voluntarily with any such reconstruction and rehab, etc. They've got tons of capital and savings from a rolling economy, after all. And they have an image that needs building and improvement.

(assuming that most European countries will be aligned towards South Korea)

Many European Countries have condemned the North's actions so if they were to become involved i imagine it would be to support the South. Infact the only country mentioned in the articles i have read that did not condemn NK was China, who refused to place blame and claimed "Both sides should try harder to keep peace".

Like most people here i don't forsee the start of WWIII, like scaremongering tabloids and Facebook seem to expect, there is always the possibility that it will flare into a full scale war between the North and South, but apart from US intervention i don't think too many countries would become militarily involved. The rational arguments for China to keep out of it outweigh the largely ideological arguments for China to involve itself.

If China intervened, they'd lose their biggest trade partners, the EU and US (assuming that most European countries will be aligned towards South Korea)

Keeping in mind that China is as important to the West as the West is to China. THey could do major damage to the US and other Western economies if they choose to do so.