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Topic Subject: Random Tips to Improving Your Campaign/Scenario: Version II
posted 02-15-04 00:03 AM CT (US)   
In case you're wondering what the Version II thing is about, the first version can be found here.

I've been watching the SD forum with silent dissent for a while. It's been a combination of things, but high on the list is the several very basic flaws with many sceanrios out there, that could be easily fixed. So please, read these:

1. When debugging your scenario, always test it as if the player is purposely trying to screw the triggers up. Go ahead, delete units to see if you forgot to make the player lose. Please, search for unwanted holes in your barriers. And never assume a unit is going to die just because it seems like it is in an insurmoutable position. You'd be surprised what some creative people could do to win battles...

2. Never underestimate the power of elevation. It can help align map copied buildings. It adds much needed strategy to single unit RPGs. And it looks nice, and adds realism.

3. Terrain mix. A Grass 1 map never looked good.

4. Don't put 3000 units on the map. For all our sakes.

5. Don't loop Display Instructions trigger without a Timer. It floods the Chat Window, making it impossible to read past events/dialogues. Not to mention it takes minimal effort on the designer's part.

6. As irresistable as it is, try to avoid having your name appear in the scenario as a chat message every 3 minutes. This only really happens in some multiplayer maps, but is annoying nonetheless.

7. Never assume the player automatically knows something. Pretend the player knows nothing of the map, and give him directions to every place he has to go. Similarly, keep each character in its "intelligence line." Don't have a character talking about something it never would have been able to find out of the story were real.

8. Name your triggers. It will save your skin countless times whenever you have to fix a bug.

9. Be a little lighthearted. Humor goes far in a scenario. Make allusions to yourself in idle chat. Add strange characters or cutscenes in marco polo territory. Have townsfolk talk about each other in strange context. Or have the main characters crack the occasional joke or insult in a cutscene.

10. Keep the town in perspective when creating it. Is it supposed to be a rich town? Then add Imperial Age buildings. It is going to be a newly renovated area? Then add regular roads. Keep in mind that most Medieval towns were crowded. Not only is it realistic to fill your towns with buildings (not too much...), but it is visually pleasing too.

11. Random maps guarantee a 3.0 rating in map design, but not in player disposition. I far admire more the designer who attempted to create his own map than one who simply clicked and had one pop up for him. Random maps can also look very out of place if you have 1 or 2 huge towns and nothing else. With custom maps it is much easier to create the same feel across the map. And if you actually put work into your custom map, it shows.

12. The player should never have an 8000 attack Harold Hardraade killing helpless hoards of Champions. It's not really fun.

13. Long walks with no action tend to bore the player. When creating paths, allow for more interaction, such as bandits or sidequests. Consider giving the player a faster unit, too, or researching techs like Husbandry or Squires for him.

14. Tricks like the taunt system to equip items can be nice, but do not add it for the pleasure of adding it. Please do not put a taunt system in your scenario if there are no penalties for using it. For example, a non-removable shield that gives a permanent 80 HP increase should not have to be taunted to be added, but instead should simply be equipped as soon as the player finds it.

15. Reward the player for going off the beaten path every now and then. Put upgrades or laughable characters in obscure parts of the map.

More to be added.


zyxomma100- Age of Kings Heaven forumer
Proudly thwarting Dark_Aro's evil plans since 2002
"There is nothing more sad than watching a teutonic knight chasing a petard."

[This message has been edited by zyxomma100 (edited 02-16-2004 @ 01:26 PM).]

Replies:
posted 02-15-04 03:10 AM CT (US)     1 / 29  
Great post, Pal. Keep up the good work. You've become the "SWP" of the SD forums, only without the lip and attitude.

Quote:

1. When debugging your scenario, always test it as if the player is purposely trying to screw the triggers up. Go ahead, delete units to see if you forgot to make the player lose. Please, search for unwanted holes in your barriers. And never assume a unit is going to die just because it seems like it is in an insurmoutable position. You'd be surprised what some creative people could do to win battles...


This is a biggie. I often have the problem of, when I playtest my own scenarios, I do everything exactly how I know I'm supposed to, which has caused some bugs for other playtesters who don't know all the bells and whistles of the scenario.

Helmet_Olsomn2
The Library.:.Age of Civilizations
"So I had a choice, either take the word of a madman, or defend America." - President Bush
"Most look up and admire the stars. A champion climbs a mountain and grabs one."
posted 02-15-04 12:55 PM CT (US)     2 / 29  

Quoted from zyxomma100:

11. Random maps guarantee a 3.0 rating in map design, but not in player disposition. I far admire more the designer who attempted to create his own map than one who simply clicked and had one pop up for him. Random maps can also look very out of place if you have 1 or 2 huge towns and nothing else. With custom maps it is much easier to create the same feel across the map. And if you actually put work into your custom map, it shows.

This is very important; I always make my own map, never a random map. It pays off in termas of map design and in terms of playability. It is not fun to play an RPG on a random map.


| D A R C K R C D D |
posted 02-15-04 12:56 PM CT (US)     3 / 29  
Yes, I agree with DarckRedd
posted 02-15-04 03:35 PM CT (US)     4 / 29  
Nice post

Creator of the AOK Trigger Studio, a work not in progress.
Wise men still seek Him.
posted 02-15-04 03:52 PM CT (US)     5 / 29  
Hey, this is a realy good post at all!

"If I take one more step, this'll be the furthest from The Shire that I've ever been."
posted 02-15-04 04:09 PM CT (US)     6 / 29  
Excellent article!

It has an edge to it but I think it makes for very good and entertaining reading.

Quote:

6. As irresistable as it is, try to avoid having your name appear in the scenario as a chat message every 3 minutes. This only really happens in some multiplayer maps, but is annoying nonetheless.

That has to be my favorite!


"I take it that this is the Anastasia Scud pines for?" - Epic Commander
"What Ana said. Use sugar and the whip." - aka the Pilot
"I think you will realize the emphasis was on Ana and Cake." - Monk
posted 02-15-04 05:03 PM CT (US)     7 / 29  
Nice post zyx.

I'll have to get you to write an article for the TSU next

posted 02-15-04 05:25 PM CT (US)     8 / 29  
Nice article, zyx. I was lol about No 6, but I liked No 1 even better. Oh yeah, those creative players can be a real pain. You give them supposedly unwinnable battles and they still win them, and then of cause all triggers go crazy...

I'm not against using random maps as a basis if designers change them beyond recognition, and if the final result doesn't look like a random map any more. I sometimes do that, it just gives me some inspiration and a couple of useful elevations and rivers to start with. But you're right that an unchanged random map is quite a disappointment... many newcomers just press the create map button, place down a few buildings, and that's it.

Ingo

[This message has been edited by Ingo van Thiel (edited 02-15-2004 @ 05:29 PM).]

posted 02-15-04 05:59 PM CT (US)     9 / 29  
Love your post. Hopefully newbies would have a better time and ease on their scenarios, and think twice about what they should do before they announce it finished.

1UP Blog
posted 02-15-04 06:36 PM CT (US)     10 / 29  

Quoted from Ingo:

I'm not against using random maps as a basis if designers change them beyond recognition, and if the final result doesn't look like a random map any more. I sometimes do that, it just gives me some inspiration and a couple of useful elevations and rivers to start with.


Yeah, just look at your prolouge in Ulio

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posted 02-15-04 06:52 PM CT (US)     11 / 29  
Well observed and marco-poloed, kevingamer _AcX_.
posted 02-15-04 07:03 PM CT (US)     12 / 29  

Nice article zyx.


"Especially awe-inspiring is the fact that any single brain is made up of atoms that were forged in the hearts of countless stars billions of years ago... These atoms now form a conglomerate – your brain – that can not only ponder the very stars that gave it birth but can also think about its own ability to think and wonder about its own ability to wonder. With the arrival of humans…the universe has suddenly become conscious of itself. This, truly, is the greatest mystery of all." - Rama
posted 02-15-04 11:51 PM CT (US)     13 / 29  
Good stuff, mate

DR LORENZO
AoEH | Woad Creations Alumni
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posted 02-16-04 00:14 AM CT (US)     14 / 29  
posted 02-16-04 06:02 AM CT (US)     15 / 29  

Quote:

many newcomers just press the create map button, place down a few buildings, and that's it


Isn't that how everybody starts? You have to go through those stages to reach 'higher' design grounds

Hu seo þrag gewat, genap under nihthelm, swa heo no wære
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[This message has been edited by Sukkit (edited 02-16-2004 @ 06:02 AM).]

posted 02-16-04 07:11 AM CT (US)     16 / 29  
Yes, great thread. These are all things new designers need to think about.
posted 02-16-04 09:28 AM CT (US)     17 / 29  
It took me a year to get to the point where one of these happen in my scenerios. Now it kinda sticks in the back of mond not to do alot of that stuff.

Terry the white
Proud member ofDg
Latest works in progress- The Noob Saga 2.
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posted 02-16-04 01:32 PM CT (US)     18 / 29  
*basks in temporary glory*

Thanks, guys. A few more added.


zyxomma100- Age of Kings Heaven forumer
Proudly thwarting Dark_Aro's evil plans since 2002
"There is nothing more sad than watching a teutonic knight chasing a petard."
posted 02-16-04 01:59 PM CT (US)     19 / 29  
zyxo, nice to see you're still around! Keep up the good work, these are great for the kids

-rehsarc-

posted 02-16-04 08:21 PM CT (US)     20 / 29  
Nice! But, what you said about random maps... it's very annoying to have to sart your own map from srcatch, just generate a map and add on/modify it (IMO).
posted 02-16-04 09:31 PM CT (US)     21 / 29  

Quote:

random maps... it's very annoying to have to sart your own map from srcatch, just generate a map and add on/modify it (IMO).


I think it's better to create your own map, put an original flavor to it. It shows dedication, and it's not that hard to tell when a designer has used a random map (most of the time). I'd only use a random generated map if I was in a big hurry and had a "deadline" to meet.

Helmet_Olsomn2
The Library.:.Age of Civilizations
"So I had a choice, either take the word of a madman, or defend America." - President Bush
"Most look up and admire the stars. A champion climbs a mountain and grabs one."
posted 02-17-04 02:00 AM CT (US)     22 / 29  

Quoted from Magnum Pie:

it's very annoying to have to sart your own map from srcatch, just generate a map and add on/modify it


I find it enjoyable, just taking a patch of grass 1 and making something out of it.


| D A R C K R C D D |
posted 02-17-04 05:26 PM CT (US)     23 / 29  
I always start a map from scratch; random maps are so hard to edit into something nice, and making the map yourself is the best part.

It is great for anyone who is new. 1 and 15 are important ones.


[ Your quote could be here! ]*

* Contact information included separately

posted 02-17-04 06:26 PM CT (US)     24 / 29  
I start off with a cinematic. Them sequences are always fun to do. Then start off the basic, needed triggers. Map design isn't of high priority to me, although I do them quite nicely.

I hope so.


1UP Blog
posted 02-18-04 00:50 AM CT (US)     25 / 29  

Quote:

1. When debugging your scenario, always test it as if the player is purposely trying to screw the triggers up. Go ahead, delete units to see if you forgot to make the player lose. Please, search for unwanted holes in your barriers. And never assume a unit is going to die just because it seems like it is in an insurmoutable position. You'd be surprised what some creative people could do to win battles...

This actually happened to me in the Charlemagne campaign included with the CD. I managed to win the first battle and actually had to examine the triggers to figure out that I had to kill off some of my own units before I could proceed.

Quote:

6. As irresistable as it is, try to avoid having your name appear in the scenario as a chat message every 3 minutes. This only really happens in some multiplayer maps, but is annoying nonetheless.

On the Zone, there's no other option.

Quote:

8. Name your triggers. It will save your skin countless times whenever you have to fix a bug.

Or don't if you wanna semi-copy-protect your multiplayer map.

Quote:

12. The player should never have an 8000 attack Harold Hardraade killing helpless hoards of Champions. It's not really fun.

In multiplayer RPG's, it is.

Other than that, great article, zyx!


CRYSTALCROWN

Play OnlineBecause you really can't gloat about beating the computer.
Learn the FlushSo you don't lose every game in under 20 minutes.

It's not a post count; it's making your posts count.

[This message has been edited by CrystalCrown (edited 02-18-2004 @ 00:52 AM).]

posted 02-18-04 11:19 AM CT (US)     26 / 29  
Ok, CC, whatever you say. Numbers 8 and 12 were referring specifically to the Zone. I have never seen anything more annoying than to have a cutscene wiped out because the author wanted his name in again. And if you find 8000 attack Harolds fun, I made a map like that for 2 people against 4000 Champions. We should play it sometime; you'll find it fun.

Thanks for the comments, CC. About time you came back. Typical mod. But thanks for the comments. And I'm so happy to be newsed. Thanks, Dark.
*dances*


zyxomma100- Age of Kings Heaven forumer
Proudly thwarting Dark_Aro's evil plans since 2002
"There is nothing more sad than watching a teutonic knight chasing a petard."
posted 02-18-04 11:58 AM CT (US)     27 / 29  

Quote:

I have never seen anything more annoying than to have a cutscene wiped out because the author wanted his name in again.

I usually don't want any cutscenes in multiplayer scenario. Play the map a couple of times and even good cutscenes can become repetitive.

Quote:

I made a map like that for 2 people against 4000 Champions. We should play it sometime; you'll find it fun.

Only if it has a level-up feature.


CRYSTALCROWN

Play OnlineBecause you really can't gloat about beating the computer.
Learn the FlushSo you don't lose every game in under 20 minutes.

It's not a post count; it's making your posts count.
posted 02-18-04 01:22 PM CT (US)     28 / 29  
Ugh. Most of the multiplayer RPGs out there are the worst scnearios ever. Whats so appealing about walking along a square, plain path set out by trees/cliffs? I've seen better designs on used toilet paper.

Also, after about 2 minutes (in which theres usually a "training session" - where 1000 militia spawn, only to be one-hitted by the players lined up there, who are gaining +10HP and +10 Attack every kill).. you can basically kill anything in one hit. Even the "bosses", most of the time.

Note I say "most multiplayer RPGs", since some can be good. Take Ravenous for a great example, I loved it.

Oh, and to stay on topic: great tips zyx, especially no.1 which a lot of designers don't do..

[This message has been edited by Arkanzor (edited 02-18-2004 @ 01:23 PM).]

posted 02-18-04 05:49 PM CT (US)     29 / 29  

Quote:

Also, after about 2 minutes (in which theres usually a "training session" - where 1000 militia spawn, only to be one-hitted by the players lined up there, who are gaining +10HP and +10 Attack every kill).. you can basically kill anything in one hit. Even the "bosses", most of the time.

Note I say "most multiplayer RPGs", since some can be good. Take Ravenous for a great example, I loved it.

Yeah, except that was the whole purpose of Ravenous: to kill a whole bunch of weak units to build up. Therefore, it's not that concept that is bad, simply the fact that the other RPGs lack a visually-appealing map design and fail to contain an intricate storyline.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with killing multiple enemy units in one hit with a strong hero unit in multiplayer RPGs if you execute it correctly. Just don't expect it to be your sole feature.


CRYSTALCROWN

Play OnlineBecause you really can't gloat about beating the computer.
Learn the FlushSo you don't lose every game in under 20 minutes.

It's not a post count; it's making your posts count.

[This message has been edited by CrystalCrown (edited 02-18-2004 @ 05:49 PM).]

Age of Kings Heaven » Forums » Scenario Design and Discussion » Random Tips to Improving Your Campaign/Scenario: Version II
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