but my point was, would you have the favour? And if you did 600 food is pretty expensive

Think of the food that 3 Shieldmaidens would save you by keeping your Cav and Inf alive a little longer for an extra fight. It becomes even more important when facing any Civ other than Eggy since they can out-heal you by far with their stupid Priests. Especially vs. Greek who don't take Apollo or other Norse. Having a Full HP army against their 1/2 HP army really makes a diffrence, putting things to your advantage. They also take in damage and deal it pretty well and if you have 3 of them I'll have a hard time believing they'll die soon. Good for raiding too, especially with Hooves.

[This message has been edited by Jesse194 (edited 03-29-2010 @ 09:39 AM).]

Quoted from HailToTheOboe:

but my point was, would you have the favour? And if you did 600 food is pretty expensive

First of all, you start with a free valk (assuming TT), so this already makes your computation a lot cheaper. Then, when this initial valk returns from her usual scouting/forest fire mission, she will often be severely damaged. Your second (first self-trained) valk restores her to full health, which alone is a significant payback in resources.

But most important is that "expensive" is a relative term. Measured by what you get Shieldmaidens are far from being expensive. Their combat power is enormous and can be raised even further by Thundering Hooves. Their ability to heal your stuff wherever it happens to be located (as opposed to having to return to a spring or Apollo temple or having to wait for slow priests to arrive) is also excellent. You pay a high price for excellent value. That is not really expensive.

Especially not if you prevent your favor from going 100 by doing so (because that pretty much eliminates favor from the cost equation, seeing that you would have lost the surplus favor if you had not spent it on a valk). 50 favor can be much or little for Norse, depending on the combat situation. During Mediterranean arrow ship fights I usually leave my temple on aq valks and after some time, when I can spare a second, go fetch my 4-5 completed valks from the temple and send them on a raiding mission. Provided I hold my ground on the sea, food is not really a bottleneck here, and filling 100 favor is a quick thing with arrow ship combat.

In Thor v Thor rush battles the whole game is often decided by who manages to field more valks. These are the key units that decide the ulf/RC/TA/whatever battle, especially because in such a battle neither has the food or longhouse time to train slow-training hersirs that lose to everything but valks. In these situations, it can be crucial to actually stop production in your longhouses until you have made sure your temple is powered with 200 food and working on another valk. The longhouse units that you do not get this way are easily over-compensated by that valk.

expensive relative to ' i want to get my ass to heroic asap'

and no, im not hailtotheoboe

Quoted from HailToTheOboe:

I am HailToTheViper

?

it is absolutely stupid to make 3 shieldmaiden valks during classical against a poss

they just aren't strong enough to be worth 600 food and 60 favor

using the food/favor for thundering hooves is better for your cav.

during classical since you're trying to outraid the pos in most every game you wish to win,
your cav can outrun the hips and also have...oh what is it
more hp i think?

that'd be better cuz it's vital not to lose rc.
200 food and 20 favor + 200 gold and 10 favor for a shieldmaiden
won't heal your units fast enough and have a big enough effect to make it worth it

especially since bragi ulfs need favor, and battle boars are a much better use of favor than valks are

Sitting in heroic and needing favor for Bragi upgrades is a totally different matter. But I strongly disagree that Thundering Hooves would be more important than Shieldmaidens. Thundering Hooves is not bad, but extortionally expensive. The speed difference between 6.0 and 6.6 is not a decisive factor. However, Shieldmaidens do heal at a breathtaking speed. Also remember that numbers > upgrades. Having +10% for your existing RC is hardly as valuable as having 1-1.5 more Shieldmaidens for the same amount of money.

To me the decision depends on the game situation, especially on gold. The Aurora Borealis up is well worth its money, seeing that it increases valk attack (= valk value!) by a whopping 50% and enables valks to heal so fast that contrary to what you are saying, they can heal an entire army quite quickly.

If I have Aurora Borealis researched, then I will gladly invest my food and favor in valks until I have 2-3. Then I can add Thundering Hooves, seeing that it not only improves my RC, but also my existing valks (improving their hp and allowing them to raid with the RC without really slowing them down anymore). However, if favor or gold are so tight that I cannot get Aurora Borealis early, but at the same time have plenty of food to spare, then Thundering Hooves may indeed be the way to go.

Never underestimate the power of Shieldmaidens. They are a totally different thing from regular valkyries.

Quoted from HailToTheViper:

expensive relative to ' i want to get my ass to heroic asap'

You always need to set priorities, and depending on the game situation, especially the god you are opposing, heroic age may well have higher priority that classical valks. But it is normal that in a game you decide against training a basically good and worthwhile unit because you currently need something different more urgently. This does not reduce the general value of Shieldmaidens. And there is nothing wrong with training Shieldmaidens in heroic age, even though you may want to postpone them until after you got Swine Array or Axe of Muspell, again depending on the situation. With their available upgrades Shieldmaidens compare nicely to any other heroic MU. I agree BB have higher firepower and siege capabilities, but they are slower and cost much more favor, and last time I checked they could not heal, so you may want some of both MU types.

Also note that BB get no bonus vs other MU while valks do, so valks perform better in MU vs MU combat, and Shieldmaidens with Hooves will defeat BB pop-wise (perhaps even w/o Hooves - cba to figure that out).

[This message has been edited by DeathAndPain (edited 03-30-2010 @ 03:53 AM).]

i agree, you must apply to the situation at hand in game. Sometimes it is better to save the food, amke 2-3 towers and get heroic, sometimes not.

iron maiden what you just said is quite dumb. pos vs thor/norse in classic is hero+ranged hero+hipps and sometimes you might throw in some centaurs or tox. im pretty sure valks (upgraded i think) have 600~ health and 16 or 18 attack. coupled with their speed and healing ability they're really quite amazing. the possy would have to really concentrate on microing the hippolyta and always try and win a battle before you can run back and heal.

this coupled with the fact that you think norse is underpowered late game makes me think you just dont know how to play

Usually I find making multiple valkryie versus Poseidon would be a bad choice. This choice forces you to stick in classical, and therefore not being able to get bragi ulfs. Add to the fact that this allows the Poseidon to get Heroic before you and get prodromos. Also consider that most games versus Poseidon are raiding wars, so a straight up fight does not come into play till later.

Versus another Thor or Odin, valks are obviously a good choice. As most of your army composition is going to be focused around TA's, and not so much around RC as you would make in other situations. Usually its the Norse player who is first able to field a Valk, (AoM) that wins the map position, and puts the opposing Norse on his heels.

[This message has been edited by Husker (edited 03-30-2010 @ 12:28 PM).]

Quoted from Husker:

Usually I find making multiple valkryie versus Poseidon would be a bad choice. This choice forces you to stick in classical, and therefore not being able to get bragi ulfs.

Bragi ulfs are useful, but not necessary vs Possy hipps. (You could as well use jarls, which win 1v1 vs hipps, or just mass ulfs which get better vs hippikons the higher the numbers on both sides due to better pathing. Ulfs are also the units that regain their value fastest when being healed, because their strength lies in their high attack per pop, not in their hp per pop.)

Quoted from Husker:

Add to the fact that this allows the Poseidon to get Heroic before you and get prodromos.

If your valks sit at home doing nothing, yes. But then again, if your troops sit at home doing nothing, you will not get the favor for the valks in the first place.

If, however, you engage the enemy in combat, or raid the shit outta him (shieldmaidens shine at both), then he will have to reproduce units and not be able to advance to heroic any sooner than you do. For a shieldmaiden it is no problem to kill her own cost in hippikons, or more. But shieldmaidens can heal each other and the rest of your army afterwards, while Possy has no means of healing whatsoever.

Quoted from Husker:

Also consider that most games versus Poseidon are raiding wars, so a straight up fight does not come into play till later.

Since when are valks bad at raiding? As discussed in that other thread, raiding with cavalry has the disadvantage that you have large units that can hack less often at the enemy vills due to worse pathing. Shieldmaidens are not bigger than a regular cavalry unit, but pack the punch of more than two RC.

You could use Jarls, but like I said before, the Norse needs to diversify his army. In part because Jarls are expensive, but also because it is too easy for the Possy player to spam Prodromos to counter the Jarls, this is where Bragi ulfs come into play.

It is easy to say if you raid the shit of out your opponent, you will be able to beat him to heroic. But remember he can raid you too.

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

If, however, you engage the enemy in combat, or raid the shit outta him (shieldmaidens shine at both), then he will have to reproduce units and not be able to advance to heroic any sooner than you do.

RC do not excel at straight up fighting, so going into a fight versus the stronger, (And cheap Poseidon hips), is not viable on all maps. On some low hunt maps, I believe it is quite possible to outspam the Poseidon with RC and pretty much decide the game right there. But overall the lightly armored RC's strength is to raid, not to fight.

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

Since when are valks bad at raiding?

I never said Valk's were bad at raiding, they are very efficient raiders as you have said.

LOL!!!!!!

dude it all depends on the map.

against pos i usually don't even get shieldmaiden OR thundering hooves because it's stupid to straight up fight a pos just because the hips are so much stronger.
those 2 upgrades wont even make that big of a difference if the pos
has a few armory ups anyways.
the food for thundering hooves and gold for shieldmaiden is better spent
on eco or armory ups, or just plain getting heroic faster and securing gold or trade or tc's or whatever the issue is for the map

now, if you're going for a classical fight rather than raid wars, i'd get armory ups rather than thundering hooves, and probably a valk.
but in raiding wars it's absurd to spend all those resources on upgrading your little valkyries and raiding cavalry lol.
thundering hooves would be wise if he walled a lot and you would need to outrun the hips

but straight up, unless you rush a pos, you're probably not gonna win by fighting his hips in classical, it's in heroic where the decisive battles will take place (if you're smart)
it's not cost effective to fight his military in classical

Hipps are indeed stronger than RC but RC are better pop-wise and thus are much better to pop out on. Basically all Norse have a pretty staggering rate of counter vs Possy on most maps (exception being maybe Oasis or sometimes Alfheim). Thor/Odin due to better hunting -> more Hipps. Loki due to huge MU producing ability that is very good vs Greek...you can be Mythic at 13 Min with the Possy still in Classic and just trounce him if you play right.

Quoted from Husker:

You could use Jarls, but like I said before, the Norse needs to diversify his army. In part because Jarls are expensive, but also because it is too easy for the Possy player to spam Prodromos to counter the Jarls, this is where Bragi ulfs come into play. You could use Jarls, but like I said before, the Norse needs to diversify his army. In part because Jarls are expensive, but also because it is too easy for the Possy player to spam Prodromos to counter the Jarls, this is where Bragi ulfs come into play.

Or where regular ulfs come into play. Prodromos are rather weak units. They even lose to elephants even though countering cavalry (and siege) is their sole purpose. Normal ulfs rape prodromos np. And so do TA, especially Skadi ones (in case you did not go Bragi). Husker disclaimer: No, I do not recommend sending 1 TA without meat shield vs 1 Prodromos or hippikon.

Greek has all sorts of counter units in heroic age, and of course you always need to endeavor to have the units his current counter units are not countering. A mixture of regular ulfs and jarls can do the job vs any mixture of Hipps and prods. Obviousity disclaimer: Yes, you need to mix in RC and/or huskies if he is mixing in tox. Lean the odds of your mixture depending on the odds in his army. That being said, I do agree that the discounted Poseidon cavalry is very powerful, and going Bragi does make sense.

Quoted from Husker:

It is easy to say if you raid the shit of out your opponent, you will be able to beat him to heroic. But remember he can raid you too.

Yes, but once again you are losing the overview of the discussion, seeing that this statement of yours actually supports my standpoint. While both sides are raiding each other, both sides take losses they need to replace, and Norse generates lotsa favor. The losses keep Possy away from heroic age just like me, and the favor allows me to get Shieldmaidens for healing and even harder raiding. Your initial assumption that Possy simply goes heroic with the money that I spend on valks is not true. He needs units to raid me back, and he does suffer economic losses (unless he defends in an attempt to save his econ, which may easily lead to a main battle where valks can again shine, especially if he does not train units in hopes to get to heroic age faster).

Quoted from Husker:

RC do not excel at straight up fighting, so going into a fight versus the stronger, (And cheap Poseidon hips), is not viable on all maps. On some low hunt maps, I believe it is quite possible to outspam the Poseidon with RC and pretty much decide the game right there. But overall the lightly armored RC's strength is to raid, not to fight.

RC do have excellent firepower and do beat hippikons pop-wise in open terrain. But you forget where we are coming from: In these battles the shieldmaidens will participate and make a difference. The Poseidon is well-advised to produce stuff rather than saving for heroic age if he hopes to have any future.

Quoted from AoL_Iron_maiden:

LOL!!!!!!

dude it all depends on the map.

against pos i usually don't even get shieldmaiden OR thundering hooves because it's stupid to straight up fight a pos just because the hips are so much stronger.

LOL!!!!! You are talking crap. Hipps pack more punch per unit, so they enjoy the better pathing, but in return RC have 20% more attack per pop (along with their better speed). Possy hipps do enjoy an edge in resource cost, but that will not win them a pop-limit battle. So while I am not claiming that hipps are bad, RC have little to fear and can compete.

Quoted from AoL_Iron_maiden:

those 2 upgrades wont even make that big of a difference if the pos
has a few armory ups anyways.

LOL!!!!! Who is more likely to have better armory ups at any stage of the game... Thor or Poseidon?

Nothing wrong with having an opinion of your own, AoL_Iron_maiden, but if you share it in a more humble way, like everyone else here does, then you will make less of a clown out of yourself.

Quoted from Mr Martel:

Thor/Odin due to better hunting -> more Hipps.

"Better hunting" is an arguable thing, seeing that Possy has lure. Thor/Odin gather from hunt faster, but Possy needs less walking to reach the hunt, and when hunt is done he already has his vills where he needs them to proceed to herdables or farming (unless the map has so much hunt that it makes sense for him to go for it after Lure is done). Compared to other Greeks Lure also saves him the cost of a granary.

do you guys even play thor lol?

hips rape rc.
unless rc have uber uber uber uber uber armory ups and thundering hooves
and the hips are barely upgraded at all, that is the only time that the rc would win

but that is not worth all the resources to spend on THAT many upgrades just so a horsey won't get raped vs. a hip

straight up, it is not smart to mass rc against hips and fight him straight up.
it's never smart to fight a greek head to head during classical, altho on TT maybe having multiple tc's could have an impact.
but the greek player can take tc's too lol

so straight up, it's not smart to fight straight up unless you rush and get ulfs with rc

the best way to beat a poseidon when u play thor is making about half rc half ulfs, raid with one party, defend with the rest.
lose no army whatsoever
force him to use ceasefire in early heroic once u get bragi ulfs, huskarls, jarls , battle boars etc.
OR
just get mythic and use fwfw so he can't cease it

Maiden, RC do beat hips per population, you cannot deny that.

However, possy will get pop limit significantly earlier (and will be at an advantage until thor can reach pop limit), and its in his best interest to force fighting before this point in order to delay the time when thor pops.

[This message has been edited by HailToTheOboe (edited 03-31-2010 @ 02:55 PM).]

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

Normal ulfs rape prodromos np. And so do TA, especially Skadi ones (in case you did not go Bragi).

It is the efficiency of killing the Prodromos that I was getting at. Sure normal ulfs and TA's can beat Prods, but bragi ulfs do the job much faster than other units. This means less fighting under Toxote fire, and a more efficient use of resources overall.

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

The losses keep Possy away from heroic age just like me, and the favor allows me to get Shieldmaidens for healing and even harder raiding. Your initial assumption that Possy simply goes heroic with the money that I spend on valks is not true. He needs units to raid me back, and he does suffer economic losses

Lets say in an extremely hypothetically situation where both players suffer equal economic losses. If you spend favor on a couple Valkyrie you are going to hit heroic later than the Poseidon. I honestly don't know how this is debatable, if you spend 200 food on one Valkyrie, it will slow down your heroic time. Yes you can do harder raiding with Valks, but the Possy can get Centaurs as well.

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

RC do have excellent firepower and do beat hippikons pop-wise in open terrain. But you forget where we are coming from: In these battles the shieldmaidens will participate and make a difference.

Yes RC do beat hippokens pop wise. But as you said, hippokens will win in resource cost.

Possy hip = 36 Food, 72 Gold, 3 Pop
RC = 40 food, 50 Gold, 2 Pop

Cost Per Pop:

Hip = (36/3) & (72/3) = 12 Food & 24 Gold
RC = (40/2) & (50/2) = 20 Food & 25 Gold

Using a common denominator of 6:

Hip = 2(36) + 2(72) = 72 + 144 = 216 total resources
RC = 3(40) + 3(50) = 120 + 150 = 270 total resources

Obviously as you expand your pop size the numbers diverge from each other even more.
(On a side note, an interesting test would be a 30 pop fight between Hippokens and RC using equal resources.)

It battles sure, valk's can make a difference, but you also have to understand that the possy can have heroes to counter your valks. Unless of course you are talking about raiding battles around resources, not a battle that includes slower infantry.

[This message has been edited by Husker (edited 03-31-2010 @ 04:19 PM).]

Offtopic:

Why do you keep typing "hippoken"?

I've seen it all over the place.

Most replies which have sums in them trying to prove something about pop and res and all that bullshit make me just not read them (except for oboe, becuase he is actually smart and knows stuff)

1- RC cost 2 POP. Maiden, you are comparing a 3 POP unit Vs a 2 POP unit = epic fail.

The way everyone talks, possy is just completely unbeatable by norse. I agree that full hips is hard to beat without playing smart.
Its like The 500-1000 roman soldiers that pawned like 50000 barbarians becuase they were completely disorganised and didnt micro.

I think you have to make RC early, hit thier wood, keep them chasing you. Make walls so your eco is protected, this is easy enough with 2-3 ulf that also can defend vs raids. Once you full pop, you are in position to face thier army. If you confront them infront of your base where you may have upped a cren tower, then they will lose heavily.

[This message has been edited by HailToTheViper (edited 03-31-2010 @ 07:47 PM).]

I type hippoken for the same reason the french always say "u fear", because I don't know the correct way. I don't profess to be an English major or have a background in spelling Greek mythology. If it's Hippoken, Hippokon, or something else that escapes me, I am sorry.

But I will ask that if you want to discuss my typing idiosyncrasies, that you make a Grammar Fail thread and do it there, where it would not be offtopic. Or simply add it on after an argument.

Viper, you have to play smart at almost all times of the game, unless you are facing Vodka's loki. It is tough to compare a 3 pop unit to a 2 pop unit, but if you are going to attempt it, you have to look at all factors that go into the discussion. You cannot just say, "RC beat Hips pop-wise" without taking into consideration of the training time, resource cost, pathing, etc...

[This message has been edited by Husker (edited 03-31-2010 @ 10:33 PM).]

Hipps are a better unit than RC vs Eggy.
RC are a better unit than Hipps vs Atty.

In head to head, Norse vs Greek, in only cavalry wars...I'd still take the RC.

okay hips cost 3 pop rc cost 2
blablabla who cares

its still not gonna be a good strat to max out pop on rc just because you can get a few more lol.
once you hit heroic with the pos, tcs = more pop = pods = byebye rc

on some maps, pos is a ridiculously strong matchup vs. thor.
for some reason i always get raped on alfheim o_O

i already gave the quick strat of how to beat pos every time as norse/thor :P

so......pretty sure that isn't saying pos is unbeatable by norse

becuase you dont wall. Probly becuase you think walls are 'lame'. Have fun losing games

Quoted from Husker:

Lets say in an extremely hypothetically situation where both players suffer equal economic losses. If you spend favor on a couple Valkyrie you are going to hit heroic later than the Poseidon.

Flaw of your logics: The additional valks lead to a change in the initial assumption. Due to the valks, losses are no longer equal. My firepower has been increased, his firepower has remained the same (unless he reacts by investing resources of his own in units to increase his firepower as well), so I win, either at raiding or even more in a main battle.

Your mistake is to assume that the additional valkyries achieve nothing, that things are as if they did not exist. That is wrong. They are extremely powerful units and will achieve a lot if the Possy player does not do something about it.

Quoted from Husker:

Yes RC do beat hippokens pop wise. But as you said, hippokens will win in resource cost.

No need for (and point in) presenting a detailed calculation when we agree on this up front.

However, you need to take another factor into consideration: The stronger army takes the lesser losses, usually by a large margin. This is something like 8 hops win to 7 hops with 3 hops still standing (which would be almost half the army of the 8-hop-owner).

Reaching pop limit once is usually not that much of a challenge. If in that situation I win a battle thx to RC pop efficiency and thx to Shieldmaiden power, my losses will be so low that the Possy can be glad he has his cheaper prices to reproduce.

Also remember that due to my valks, I can heal my survivors, while Possy has no chance to do that. Both effects combined easily compensate for the lower resource cost on the Possy side.

The problematic situation is when Possy can use terrain to actually make his hipps win (Alfheim...). But Norse generally have a problem on those maps, seeing that all sorts of archers really shine here, and RC can never reach them if there is only a small meat shield.

Quoted from Husker:

It battles sure, valk's can make a difference, but you also have to understand that the possy can have heroes to counter your valks.

...which is the reason he can do something about them at all. But:

Heroes are not free, and the higher-age heroes even cost favor

Archaic and classical Greek heroes are slow. Valks can be kept at a distance, and RC can intercept them easily. The ranged hero is a problem, but he usually has archer-like stats and can be killed by RC even though he does not count as an archer.

We are talking about fast cavalry battles. Seeing that Greek archaic and classical heroes are slow, he cannot take them on his raiding missions, so often enough they will not be where the battle takes place. He also does not know up front where he is gonna be raided. He can make an assumption and deploy his heroes besides, say, his hunters, but alone those heroes will die like flies to an RC/valk force, and having an accompanying hippikon force babysit his hunters along with his heroes sure is no way to win a raiding match.

After sustaining some hero damage, you can always withdraw 2 Shieldmaidens and have these each other at high pace (at first valk A heals valk B, and then vice versa. Thsi is sometimes a little tricky to micro, but if you do it properly, no valk starts healing anyone while she is being healed herself. I have set up a hotkey for a "become idle" command so that I can quickly and easily intervene if both valks try to heal each other at the same time, for that would result in horribly slow healing speed).

Quoted from Viper:

Its like The 500-1000 roman soldiers that pawned like 50000 barbarians becuase they were completely disorganised and didnt micro.

Then again, Hannibal turned the Roman micro against themselves and defeated them with a Barbarian force that was much smaller than the size of the Roman army he was facing.

Quoted from Husker:

I type hippoken for the same reason the french always say "u fear", because I don't know the correct way. I don't profess to be an English major or have a background in spelling Greek mythology.

It is a word from the game, which is displayed whenever you click on any such unit, so I guess it does not take an English professor or mythology expert to know the spelling... just someone who knows the game well...

Quoted from Husker:

You cannot just say, "RC beat Hips pop-wise" without taking into consideration of the training time, resource cost, pathing, etc...

Wrong. If you explicitly specify "pop-wise", then training time and cost aspects are out of the equation. Whether this is appropiate for a given discussion is a different matter (but one I discussed above in this reply.) You just do not think carefully enough about the stuff you are discussing, Husker. This is the mistake I keep blaming you for, in thread after thread and instance after instance. Our discussion would generally become much more streamlined and goal-leading if you gave your points some more thought before uttering them.

Pathing does play a role when it comes to defeating pop-wise. But RC do beat hipps pop-wise, with pathing factored in, unless the hipps can use terrain to their advantage (which they admittedly can often enough).

---

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

Flaw of your logics: The additional valks lead to a change in the initial assumption. Due to the valks, losses are no longer equal. My firepower has been increased, his firepower has remained the same (unless he reacts by investing resources of his own in units to increase his firepower as well), so I win, either at raiding or even more in a main battle.

But I also said the Possy can get Centaurs. This once again changes the initial assumption, but I assume you missed this.

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

No need for (and point in) presenting a detailed calculation when we agree on this up front.

The math wasn't so much as a response to you, it was to other people taking a narrow point of view on "RC beat Hips pop-wise." The only thing I wanted you to take away from the math, is that since RC are more expensive per-pop than Hips, it is going to be easier for the Possy to reach Heroic faster than the Norse. Obviously though there are many factors going into the discussion such as difference of skill level between the two players, larger army size (As you said), who raids better, etc..

It battles sure, valk's can make a difference, but you also have to understand that the possy can have heroes to counter your valks.

...which is the reason he can do something about them at all.

First of all, if you quoted my entire statement there, you would see that I agree that in raiding battles, heroes are near useless. (Except Chiron, of course.) I brought up heroes when talking about a fight that would involve slower infantry.

Heroes are not free, but I find they are very efficient for what you put into them, especially the first age hero that trains so fast. On small maps, with no good relics, I will use that hero to put pressure on the Norse player especially, by hitting his food if I can, or trying to disrupt his barracks making. The point being here to try and be the aggressor in the game, not react to my opponent.

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

Wrong. If you explicitly specify "pop-wise", then training time and cost aspects are out of the equation. Whether this is appropiate for a given discussion is a different matter (but one I discussed above in this reply.)

If you wish to only look at one factor that you think proves something, then you can go ahead and do this. This won't help you accomplish anything in this forum or trying to improve your game. It is just a complete waste of time if you do not want to look at as many factor's that you can. Undoubtedly, not everything can be taking into account, but I try look at as many aspects that I can to make my points as dynamic as possible.

i read like 2 words of deathandpains post and assumed he's overanalyzing things


viper
you're quite stupid

wasn't it the last time i played vs. you when you started roc raiding me at 10 mins because i had walls all around....

or perhaps it wasn't the walls that provoked ur rocs
perhaps its your giant gaping vagina that did it.... hm....


of course walls aren't lame.
walls are used for many many many different things.
fending raids, protecting seige, buildings, gold, funneling opponent's army, etc etc etc

if walls were lame, dragonfire would be just as lame as you, viper.
just without the ridiculous and often unnecessary use of towers on your part

bahahaha, you missing a fundamental thing here maiden. Let me spell it out.
Rocs are birds. The vast majority of birds fly. Therefore the bird is able to fly over the wall. Your walls have just been redered useless. BAHAHAHAHAHA!

And no, i was refferring to when you play against possy, which you claim is impossible to beat. put up walls and possy becomes useless.

poseidon is not impossible to beat

i have not where he sayed that saw

i think that one must agressive against a posiedon play, then
get mythic and use fw und fw with bragi ulfsarks und jarls

that is very good

yes, but you have to get there first. Hips are so strong, and you basically have to hold off flaming weps till mythic unless you need a forced cease.

Mass hips are lame, towers and walls are lamer. See who wins hahahaha !