[This message has been edited by Sandro The Wicke (edited 10-31-2005 @ 09:21 PM).]

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KJ just volunteered to be a meatshield when we attack ES.

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Let me get this straight. You want people to pay 25$ for fan scenarios? And to do all this, it would take ES/MS approxiametely 6 months, not to mention all the work that has to be put into releasing something before the idea/product is made public and even after it?

You know, economics is really not as simple as you might think it is. If something retails for 25$, 20,000 units would give a company zero profit, i.e. if someone buys fan created scenarios for 25$.

I disagree on two fields:
1) like I said, I believe that people~consumers would buy additional stuff pertaining to the AoM product, and I'm reffering to new scenarios/campaigns and civilizations, adding also new units-buildings-GPs
and
2) the most successful companies/products, are the ones that follow closely people's preferences.

I know that someone speaking in defense of the company (even though I'm not attacking, merely arguing) would mention product life cycles, economics and all that, still ~like I've already written~ it's a matter of perspective.
I remember from my university days, a prof in marketing had written that the client/consumer is like a sheep. You can skin the sheep only once and then it'll be dead and that's all. But if you don't skin it and instead keep feeding it, you can sheer it (is that the correct word in English for cutting off it's hair?) every season.
The same with these Age of Empire type games -or any games for that matter. The policy followed is standard and simple, you take the game engine, make a "new game", you release, then you fix based on info gathered from the forums and consumer responses, then you release another module/campaign/civilization/whatever, then you release the gold edition-just a gathering of whatever was made into one edition, and then you move on to a new game.
Am I not correct that this is their business policy ?

You're talking about economics Kumar, and very correctly you say there's a lot to it. I aggree, also I say that if the company produced a potpouri of the best scenarios/campaigns/mods and sold it for 25$, it wouldn't sell. The thing we should discuss then would be,
1) how much does the company want to make per product released?
2) how much should each product cost [I paid for AoM about 90 euros (1 euro=approx. 1.2 $US)], for the basis game and for the modules/additions?]

I think that most of the consumers would pay around 10 euros for each major addition to AoM if one came out every year, and that's all. Pls note that the consumers number some milions, OK?
Now if they want to cooperate with people from the forums who've proven their worth or not, that's their problem. But I'll say it again, the company's scenarios/campaigns are kind'a childish when compared to some of the scenarios available around here.

regards

George

Just another sheep with an opinion...

Fans make scenarios or a campaign and give a copy of the files to ES. MS manufactures and distributes it, rakes in the loot, takes their cut, gives ES the rest. ES then pays the royalties to the middle wear people and the designers. ES has little cost since all they're doing is executive producing (and insuring quality control), they're not producing any game material. And of course the math is simplified, what do you expect for a forum post, but it gives a general sense of the economics.

You could either sell it for $10 and sell "millions of copies", or sell it for a higher price and sell less. Same difference. The point is revenue exceeds costs = profit.

If ES announced a project like this, as a designer, I would eagerly participate in the design contest, and as a fan of the game, I would buy a campaign pack if it was released within 6 months of the title or its x-pack. And an x-pack doesn't necessarily have to be new civilizations just because that's how ES did it before.

You guys are saying, "Gee we wish ES would release more than two consecutive titles". Well they won't. I'm saying you have two groups whose interests can benefit each other, if one party started to see their fans as partners instead of just consumers.

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YESSSS!! Finally I can buy a new mountain bike!!!!!!!!!!!!
:P

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Kumar is right. If on one hand I'm a little sad because I probably will get a new comp only in 2,5-3 years while other designers have already started working with AoE 3 editor on the other I'm "happy" because finally I have a good reason to give up designing and to devote effort and time to my classes and my exams. The editor in fact really steals me too much time and apart some testings, little modifications and "not costly" collaborations, I'm not going to start other projects.

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I don't know if my following words concern only my country.
People generally prefer to download a FREE pirated copy of the game instead to get the original one... I really don't think they would BUY scenarios...

[This message has been edited by Oscar (edited 11-01-2005 @ 10:32 AM).]

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ToMyBoY, there's no revolution going on, just a proposal for cooperation in order to make things better.
As for the fact that 80% of the Age game purchasers are categorized as casual gamers who only play the campaign, I think it's wrong cause I'm pretty sure that they also play Random Maps, but after a while they get bored if something new doesn't come up.

regards

it is for sure that scenario designers dont get much support, but i think for ES's point of view is that any over-hypped features to satisfy a designer would be unnesessary. I mean, why work extra hours for something that wouldnt make much of a difference...and that is on profit.

REgardless of whether AoM didnt get much attention as AoE did, i think it has been a real good PC game. and yes, it sucks that the original game comes with certain limited boundaries for designers to modify, like a crappy editor, or no tutorials on how to modify certain files....but at least they do have some good tutorials on designing, modding and scripting.

and hey, not supporting designing is a good thing. it gives people interest is knowing whether certain modifications can be achieved. I mean, if ES would have had a really freaking amaizing editor where you can do some Oscar style super eyecandy, then what would be the challenge? if it was this way, all the little tricks and finds that have been discovered by these designers wouldnt had been so great because it would had been common to do these tricks with the super editor...

and also, if they did support designers, then all the interesting findings, and tutorials wouldnt had been released....

and yes, the community has made alot of good stuff, and i'm talking about tutorials, anim editors, AI editors, mapgen, and useful tools to improve scenario designing in general. if these designers would be recognized for their amaizing tools and stuff, then ES would make the excuse of the copyright, and that all things made or related to AoM are automatically property of ES and microsoft. they would advertice these products, but they would change the main person who did all the work to ES, and then they would put the designer...

anywayz i dont even know what i'm talking about....i'm tired.....4 hours of taekwondo...gotta go to sleep, so cya!

Anyways, I kind'a disagree with this perspective ~i.e. ES gave out the "raw product", just to motivate designers to improve it, if I understand correctly.
But the fact that there are some functions in the Editor that don't work ~i.e. there's one that would be used to modify the way units "look" by changing body, arms, head, weapons,etc (correct?)~ means that ES didn't do so good planning since they were going to give more than just a "raw" game.
Of course the designers found a whole bunch of stuff, created tools/utilities, and made many tricks, but I'm sure that the same and more would've happened if ES had provided us with a super editor.
Par example, imagine if the designers could modify the looks of units and buildings from the editor, instead of tampering with the proto X ! Also, imagine if the designers could have available stackable buildings (i.e. placing one atop of the other, without using elevation spikes) !
I perused the AoEIII site and saw the same thing happening again, and allow me to explain:
+ moding: Rider of Eternity and Centurion
+ scripting: RF_Gandalf, M0nTy PyTh0n and Pascal
+ various people who are looking around trying to find out stuff.
So, if all these guys didn't get involved -and I'm not saying that they do it for money- how would AoEIII procced?
How would they find the flaws and fix them? How are they going to make the extension in about a year or so and sell it to the people?
Therefore it's my point, that without the cooperation from the people from the forums, no company can advance it's product line and improve itself marketing wise.

errr... that's all folks

regards

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I want just to say I wasn't speaking about me, a pirated copy of the game in fact doesn't allow a player to play online but actually I've played several times multiplayer games, sometimes with the people of this forum.

back on topic.

Some years ago in Italy there was a lottery with a huge prize (about 90 bilions of Italian £ = 45 milions of euros/USA $) and everyone dreamed to win it.
In that period there was a little tale that circulated among the people.
This little story was about a man that was so obsessed by this lottery that everynight he prayed God so he could get the coveted prize. Many years passed but the obsessed man never won despite he kept praying God. At the end God, tired of the prayers, revealed himself and said to the man: "At least take the trouble to buy a coupon!"

So, what I want to say?
Let's give up trying to imagine what will be the ES reaction.
Let's instead test ES reaction contacting them

[This message has been edited by Oscar (edited 11-03-2005 @ 05:18 PM).]

I know that people have knocked off some hours of their life for this game. Its great actually. Now my thoughts are so jumbled I'd better just shutup.

Oscar, I totally aggree with you, question is: whom should we appoint from the forum to represent us in contacting ESO? Perhaps one of the "ancient ones" here, one of the mods, or someone else...

regards

George

EDIT: just to prove my point on how important it is for ESO and all these companies in this market to cooperate with forumers, I give you this from the AoEIII site.

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I think that says it all

[This message has been edited by Anastasoulis (edited 11-04-2005 @ 02:42 AM).]

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In my opinion he/she should:

-have a good English to write a clear message (and so I'm already excluded )

-be well representative of this commmunity.

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Would I classify as ancient or an oldie?

But even with that in mind we can at least try. I vote AoMPlayer to represent us :P

Ok, maybe not: http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=7,36691,,10

[This message has been edited by EaZy (edited 11-07-2005 @ 12:57 PM).]