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Topic Subject: Planning for the Jade Warrior roleplay
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posted 11-12-06 00:37 AM EDT (US)   
The game is now running!

Character creation rules:

All characters should be posted in the character thread. Each player may create up to two characters, one of whom will be their primary character, and the other of whom will be a secondary/additional/accessory character who will accompany the quest part of the way. Characters require the following ingredients:

Name
Race
Sex
Physical appearance
Clothing
Biography
Mechanics
NPCs


On Physical appearance - your character can look like as you choose him or her to look, although if you create an appearance that disagrees dramatically with your mechanics, you will be asked to change that. Incidentally, Elves tend to stand between 5'10" (179 cm) and 6'6" (198 cm).

On Clothing - the area in which we will begin is fairly civilized and peaceful. While it is not illegal to walk around the streets of the city bristling with weapons and covered in armor, you will be considered suspicious if you do and are not obviously on your way to somewhere. Generally, clothing in this part of the world is of mixed cultures, combining what one might call Renaisance Italian and what one might call Oriental styles. Society is very open about the (demi)human form and sensuality is not considered taboo, unlike in historical Renaisance Italy.

On Biography - read the descriptive sections below. At least one PC must know and have worked with the NPC Princess Aimienna in the past. Other PCs may or may not know Aimienna, but they all must at least know the PC who in turn knows Aimienna. PCs may otherwise know each-other as they see fit, and may discuss their biographies accordingly. Details of how your characters know each-other and who know NPCs are up to you to work out with GM commentary.

On Mechanics - We will be using the D&D 3.5 rules except as noted in the rules addenda sections below. Rules from any version of D&D including 3.5 that are not in the Player's Handbook or equivalent set of documents are subject to GM modification and/or veto.

On NPCs - Friends, acquiantances, family members, and other people you feel are of note to your character and who may become relevant once the game begins.


Characters

I accept any race in the Player’s Handbook. Other races can be proposed to me, but they need to be believable.

Classes may come from the Player’s Handbook or from the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Other classes must be reviewed by me before they may be played.


A Warning to Players

Ordinarily, players are not supposed to know what is going on behind the GM’s screen, or know what the statistics and capabilities of creatures in the world necessarily are. For this reason, the only rules that the players are considered to know in game-play are the basic rules in the Player’s Handbook and those rules added in the rules addenda. I reserve the right to change all rules not in the PHB as I see fit, including but not limited to:

-Creating new magical items and/or changing the properties of existing items
-Creating new monsters and/or changing the statistics and abilities of existing monsters
-Assigning experience points according to my opinion of the characters’ effective character level (ECL), not what the books say
-Creating new spells or spell-like powers and giving them to monsters, NPCs, and even PCs
-Re-arranging the cosmology of the TSR multiverse



Rules Addenda
Subject to change upon discussion between GM and players

Ability Scores

Each ability score is divided into two sub-abilities, each of which takes over some fraction of the ability's total effects. If the two sub-abilities of a given ability score are equal, then the rules for that ability score are identical to those of normal D&D, with one exception: Concentration is a Wisdom-based skill, not Constitution-based.

Before racial adjustments, characters may not have their sub-abilities for a given score differ by more than six points, nor can they start with any sub-ability above 18. Racial adjustments are applied after this rule, so a character can differ by more than six points for a single ability score after adjustments are made.

Spells and effects that alter ability scores alter the entire score, not just one sub-ability or another, except for effects that change ability scores only by changing size. Gained ability points can be used to increase one sub-ability two points, or an entire score one point (i.e. two sub-abilities by one point each). A character's total ability score is the average of his or her sub-abilities.

Strength is divided into Muscle and Fitness. Muscle affects your damage modifier for melee attacks, attacks with thrown weapons, and attacks with mighty weapons, as well as the amount that you can carry, as well as checks for Bull Rush, Overrun, and of course for smashing objects. Fitness affects the attack modifier for melee attacks, as well as modifies the Swim, Climb, and Jump skills. The requirements for Power Attack can be met with either score; a high Muscle indicates a character who swings harder, if less accurately, and a high Fitness indicates a character who swings riskier shots at locations that will cause more damage. Trip and Grapple checks depend upon the average of the two scores, rounded down. Elves are considered to have -4 Muscle and +2 Fitness. Gnomes and Halflings both recieve -2 Muscle but not to Fitness. Half-Orcs are considered to have +4 Muscle and no Fitness modifier. If your Muscle and Fitness modifiers are the same, then the D&D rules that apply to Strength apply to you normally.

Dexterity is divided into Agility and Coordination. Agility affects your Armor Class, your Reflex saves, and your modifiers for Balance, Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble skills. Coordination affects your attack modifiers using ranged weapons, as well as your Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Use Rope skills. If you are armed with a melee weapon and your Coordination is better than your Agility, then your Coordination is used to modify your Armor Class instead of your Agility. The prerequisites for Dodge require Agility. Your Escape Artist checks are determined by the average of your agility and coordination stats, rounded down. If your Agility and Coordination are the same, you follow the normal D&D rules for Dexterity. Dwarves recieve -2 Agility. Elves and Halflings recieve a +2 bonus to both forms of Dexterity.

Constitution is divided into Ruggedness and Health. Ruggedness affects your core wounds, extended wounds, and your Fortitude saves against non-disease and non-fear effects (ordinarily, your Fortitude save modifier is considered to include your ruggedness, not your health). Health affects your Vitality, your illness and fear-related Fortitude saves, as well as determines your stamina, the rate at which you tire, recover from wounds, as well as the length of time you can hold your breath. Dwarves recieve a +2 bonus to both forms of Constitution. Elves recieve -4 Ruggedness and +2 Health. Half-orcs recieve +2 Ruggedness. Gnomes recieve +2 Ruggedness with no health benefit. If your Ruggedness and Health are the same, you experience the D&D rules for Constitution normally except in that your Concentration skill is no longer modified by Constitution.

Intelligence is divided into Insight and Memory. Insight modifies all Intelligence-based skills, and also determines the maximum spell level that Wizards and Wizard-type spellcasters can learn, as well as the DC for said spells. Memory modifies the number of skill points you recieve, as well as determines the bonus spells you recieve as a Wizard. Half-Orcs recieve a -2 to both forms of intelligence. If your Insight and Memory scores are identical, you follow the normal D&D rules for Intelligence.

Wisdom is divided into Perception and Devotion. Perception modifies your Will saves against Illusions, your Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival skills, your Armor Class bonus as a Monk, as well as the maximum spell level you can cast if using Cleric, Druid, Paladin, or Ranger-type spellcasting. Devotion modifies all other Will saves, your Concentration skill, and the bonus spells and DC of spells using Cleric, Druid, Paladin, or Ranger-type spellcasting. If your Perception and Devotion are the same, you follow the normal D&D rules for Wisdom except that Concentration is a Wisdom-modified skill.

Charisma is divided into Magnetism and Potential. It is impossible to create a complete list of Charisma-based skills and powers, but in general, Magnetism affects anything social or otherwise not explicitly magical, while Potential affects anything and everything having to do with Charisma-based magic (including the skill Use Magical Device). Dwarves recieve a -2 Magnetism but not Potential; Halflings and Half-Orcs get a -2 to their Potential but not their Magnetism. If your Magnetism and Destiny scores are the same, you follow the normal D&D rules for Charisma.


Undead ordinarily do not have a Constitution or a Health. However, they can have a ruggedness:

A common, corporeal Undead that has been skeletonized has a -4 Ruggedness from what it had in life. An intact undead body has the same ruggedness as it had in life. Incorporeal Undead have no ruggedness. Rare Undead with many special or otherwise unusual traits, such as vampires, are described in the monster manual and are not for players' viewing.

*

Great Magic

I've generally had the feeling that magic in D&D is too easy to cast but what spells there are aren't powerful enough. Although I am doing nothing (so far) to adjust regular D&D spellcasting, I am implementing a system of magic above that, which is closer to what I want. For the sake of explanations, I am calling this system "Great Magic", as distinguished from "Lesser Magic", which is what the normal D&D magic system consists of (although admittedly some of the really high-level spells can do things that are pretty great). Great Magic I intend to use mainly as a plot device: PCs can use it, but I will handle it in a role-playing way, at least for the time being.

Any suggestions on how to make it more of a mechanical system are welcome, but when this game starts, none of the PCs will be using it except as a plot device.

The basis of the system of Great Magic is inspired by a card game entitled Magic: the Gathering (MTG), produced by Wizards of the Coast, who are also the current owners of D&D. In particular, Great Magic is divided into a set of different venues that do different things, and it is impossible to specialize in all of them, and generally specializing in any one of them has profound effects and/or requirements on alignment. Great Magic spells are for the most part one-shot deals: you research the spell, and then you cast it once. If you need it a second time, you need to research it again. This is because Great Magic spells are frequently very situation-specific: even if a given spell looks the same, it needs to be subtly different in order to function in anything other than an identical situation. Usually, Great Magic spells cannot be cast on a whim, although there are a few that can, although even these are reasonably specific the situation. Large numbers of apprentices, students, and aides allow you to research things more quickly. Last, Great Magic requires resources, and more than merely money, but communion with the land, the favor of the Gods, and the calling upon of power from artifacts of various kinds.

For characters, the system is not class-based, like Lesser Magic. Any class can use Great Magic, provided that you have the appropriate skills, feats - and resources. Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft would be pretty essential skills, but they are by no means the only skills that a Great Mage would need to effectively wield Great Magic. Generally, your skills determine your direction of specialization; if we continue the MTG analogy, this would mean the colors you have in your deck. Because of the usefulness of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana), Great Mages tend also to be users of Lesser Magic, but who you are as a Great Mage is determined by your skills and your alignment more than by your character class. Indeed, because of the varied skills you need, most of the best Great Mages are heavily multiclass, especially combining Arcane and Divine magic-using classes, which hampers their ability to use Lesser Magic a great deal, but they consider it worth the sacrifice. Your specialization in Great Magic is not determined by your alignment, but your specialization does have to mesh with your philosophy, so alignment is an integral part of the equation.

The spells are extremely powerful and not easily undone. The sampling of the Minor Artifacts in the back of the Dungeon Master's Guide and the things that they can do, especially the Deck of Many Things, provide an example of the sorts of things Great Magic is capable of, as well as what is necessary to destroy them. Great Magic is what created these items, it is the only way to make artifacts, and its spells are "like this" in character - except that the Knight card from the Deck of Many Things calls into existence a real person, not a construct who just looks like somebody real. The only Lesser Magic spells that have any real effect on Great Magic or its effects are Disintigrate and Mordenkainan's Disjunction, although spells such as Wish and Miracle might also be able to affect them other ways wished or requested, although it is possible that some Great Magic effects, such as the spell-like powers of a Staff of the Magi or similar item, can be supressed by an Anti-Magic Field. Greater Artifacts are also created using Great Magic, although the resources to do that sort of thing are frequently available only to the Gods themselves.

In the Jade Warrior roleplay, the Jade Warrior itself is a minor artifact created by Great Magic. Princess Aimienna has cast another Great Magic spell that facilitates many details of the quest to get the item, which would otherwise be effectively impossible because of the power of the Jade Warrior itself. Still a company of adventurers still must go and get it. More Great Magic will come into play as the story progresses, some of it more impressive and some less, and yet more is likely to appear should the game continue after the artifact is won.

Great Magic Rules for-the-moment:

"In Eregion long ago a great many Elven Rings were made, Magic Rings you call them, and they were of course of various kinds, some more potent and some less. To the Elves, the lesser rings were but trifles, essays in the craft before it was perfected. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous."

-Gandalf the Grey, in A Shadow of the Past, Book I Chapter 2 of The Lord of the Rings

Your characters are assumed to not yet be powerful enough to make any items equivalent to the Great Rings (the One, the Three, the Seven, and the Nine), but you might have items equivalent to the Lesser Rings that you have made for yourself.

*For every 20 total ranks of Knowledge, Heal, and Perform, skills you possess, you may have one magical item you have made using Great Magic. You must also have one rank in Spellcraft for every 4 ranks of Knowledge. These items can be rings, amulets, other jewelry, pieces of clothing or armor, weapons, etc. The items in question provide bonuses to you, the wielder, while you are carrying them, and cannot be used effectively except by you or somebody very similar to you as you may specify. These items do not count against the total wealth your character owns. Their boni must be related in some fashion to the Knowledge skills you have; Knowledge (geography) and Heal, for instance cannot be used to justify an item that gives you a bonus to Strength. Examples of acceptable boni are:

-A +2 bonus to any one ability score (which can be used to satisfy prerequesities for feats and spells)
-A +3 bonus to checks in two related skills, or a +2 bonus to checks in three related skills
-Use of a feat for which you already fulfil the requirements
-Increasing your spell-progression table by one level (note: you may not increase your spell progression beyond your caster level, so this is useless if you are not a multiclass spellcaster!)
-Items that give you a +2 bonus to any one saving throw

Unacceptable boni are:

-Items that increase your caster level
-Items that give you spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities
-Equipment enchancements, such as weapon or armor attack, damage, or AC boni
-Items that give you resistances to elements, damage types, spell resistance, etc.

Other items must be consulted with the GM.


*

Expanded Hit Point Rules

Hit Points:

-We use the normal D&D rules for generating hit points (half of die +1 + Con modifier). Ruggedness and Health are considered to be averaged for the purposes of determining your hit points.

-There is a distinction between vitality and wound hit points, which works in the following way:
-Your wound hit points are equal to your Ruggedness + your hit dice*, assuming that your hit points at least equal your Ruggedness + your hit dice. If they do not, then all of your hit points are considered to be wound points.
-Your vitality hit points are any hit points you possess in excess of your wound hit points.
-Your hit points are abbreviated as follows: X (Y/Z), where X is your current total, Y is your (maximum) total wound hit points, and Z is your maximum total hit points.
-*If you are a creature that has racial hit dice, then your racial hit dice contribute half of their value to your wound hit points, instead of merely one point per hit die (as is the case with classes)


Effects of Damage:

-Secondary effects of being hit, such as being afflicted by contact or injected venom, do not affect you unless the damage from the hit dips into your wound points. Effects that damage on proximity, such as a flaming blade, still do their extra damage even if the normal damage is just vitality.

-If you have enough hit points to have vitality hit points, and you run out of vitality, you are fatigued (-2 Str, -2 Con). If you do not have enough hit points to have vitality, then you are fatigued if you take any damage.

-If you are below half of your wound points, you are exhausted (move at half speed, -6 Str and -6 Dex).

-If your core wound points fall to 0 or below, you must immediately roll a saving throw. The save and the save DC depend on the following:
-If the damage that caused your hit points to fall to 0 does not include any precision damage, then the save is a Fortitude save with a DC of 10 + number of hit points you are negative.
-If the damage that caused your hit points to fall to 0 does include at least some precision damage, then the save is a Reflex save with a DC of 15 + number of hit points you are negative. For the purposes of determining whether you make the save fresh, fatigued, or exhausted, you are able to use your Dexterity score immediately before you are hit to determine your Reflex save bonus.
-If the save is successful, then:
-If your hit points are at 0, or if negative, then not more negative than your Ruggedness modifier, you are disabled.
-If your hit points are more negative than your Ruggedness modifier, or if your hit points are negative and your Ruggedness modifier is zero itself negative, but also your hit points are not more negative than your Ruggedness score, then you are dying.
-If your hit points are more negative than your Ruggedness score but not more negative than twice your Ruggedness score, then you are clinically dead.
-If your hit points are more negative than twice your Ruggedness score, then you are truly dead. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, yada yada yada.
-If the save is unsuccessful, then:
-If your hit points are not more negative than twice your Ruggedness score, then you are clinically dead.
-If your hit points are more negative than twice your Ruggedness score, then you are truly dead. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, yada yada yada.

-If you are dying, then a DC 15 Heal check or any amount of magical healing will instantly cause you to become stable.
-If you are stable and attempting to recover without magical healing, your recovery is not guaranteed if you have help. This is, however, sufficiently unlikely to come up that I'm not going to go into it at this point.

-If you are clinically dead, the following rules apply:
-You appear dead to all observers. This includes you, which means (among other things) that you are unconscious and oblivious to what is happening around your lifeless corpse.
-You lose one hit point per round, as if you were dying.
-You cannot become stable on your own, even if you have the diehard feat.
-You cannot be stabilized by another character making a heal check. However, a character standing over you can make a DC 20 Heal check to determine if you are, in fact, clinically dead or truly dead. If the check is successful and you are only clinically dead, the character can cast a Conjuration (healing) spell in the same round as a free action, provided that you are the sole target.
-If you are clinically dead and you receive magical healing,
-If, after the healing, your hit points are still more negative than your Ruggedness score, you are still clinically dead.
-If, after the healing, your hit points are less negative than your Ruggedness score, you become stable, disabled, or even functional, if your hit points rise above zero. You experience no loss of prepared spells or any other ill effects as a result of your temporary departure from the mortal coil.
-Raise Dead and similar spells do work on clinically dead characters, but they function as healing spells. There is no level loss, no loss of prepared spells, etc., as if it were simply a healing spell.
-Reincarnation and similar spells do work on clinically dead characters. Casting Reincarnation on a clinically dead character instantly renders her truly dead, but also schedules her reincarnation. The divine laws governing the fates of the dead do not apply if the Reincarnated character was only clinically dead before the spell was cast because the spirit is never called to the Realm of the Dead.
-Animate Dead and similar spells do work on clinically dead characters. The divine laws governing the fates of the dead do not apply if the Animated character was only clinically dead before the spell was cast because the creation of undead creatures itself constitutes a violation of those laws.

Called Shots, Precision Damage, Critical Hits, Helplessness, and Instant Kills:

-If you suffer a critical hit, the damage from which does not dip into your wound points, then you suffer no ill effects beyond the damage.
-If you suffer a critical hit and you had vitality before the hit but after, you must roll a Reflex save (DC 0 + damage dealt) or your hit points are reduced to -1 and you are clinically dead.
-If you suffer a critical hit and did not have any vitality before the hit (and otherwise survive!), then you must roll a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or be clinically dead.

-You can make a called shot at a region of a target's body. Making a called shot is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity. If the target is aware of you, it gets a +2 dodge bonus to its armor class. If the target is aware of you and has vitality, it gets a +4 bonus. If it is aware of you, then it also gets double the normal AC bonus from shields or cover. You also have to have line of fire to the target (e.g. an archer with a crossbow leaning over a wall leaves his head exposed, but not his heart).
-Your called shot is aimed at a specific part of the target's body, which is smaller than the target (thus increasing its AC). Important vital organs typically are located deep within the target's body and are better protected than surficial tissues, represented by a higher natural AC (human internal organs do have a natural AC bonus).
-If you are aiming for a target that is inside of a creature's body, you must correctly locate it. Otherwise, your called shot is just an ordinary attack (unless, by aiming incorrectly, you are unknowingly aiming for something else that is important!).
-If you make a called shot at a region known to contain vital organs (e.g. a human's chest), and you hit, your hit is automatically a critical threat. However, your attack is no more than a normal critical threat.
-If you aim for a specific vital organ, any hit is automatically a critical threat. Even if your threat is not confirmed, the target must still roll a saving throw or be clinically dead as though you had scored a critical hit (see rules for critical hits).
-True Strike is renamed Good Strike. Good Strike enables you to hit your opponent, including with a called shot, but you do not automatically threaten a critical hit with a called shot if the reason you hit in the first place was because you used Good Strike (if you would have hit anyway, then it's still a threat).
-The spell name True Strike is instead given to a sixth-level spell (fifth for bards) that functions identically to Good Strike except that it can be used for called shots.

-Damage from sneak attacks, the aimed attack feat, skirmish damage, etc. is considered precision damage. You must correctly identify regions of the target's body that are vulnerable to precision attacks in order to inflict extra damage.

-Any effect that causes instant death that is not a spell with the Death descriptor only causes clinical death. Unless otherwise noted, the victim is reduced to the negative of its Ruggedness score minus one hit point.

*

Character Generation System

Here is my draft of a character-generation system. It is designed for two purposes: to (1) provide some balance between characters of differing experience levels, and (2) to make it so that we don't have the problem of having mid-high level characters popping up out of nowhere.

Step 1:When creating your character, first choose your level. This choice is up to the player; different players may choose different starting levels. This will determine your options for ability points:

6th level: you start with 90 ability points (that's an average of 15 in every score). You can distribute them any way you like, provided that you have no scores below 3 or above 18 before racial adjustment. Your bonus ability point for reaching 4th level is not counted against your points.

7th level: you start with minimum ability scores of 8 in every score, and have 37 additional ability points that you can distribute as you like (that's an average of 14.3333 ). Before racial adjustment, you cannot have any score above 18, nor any that are below 8. You also are limited to having no more than two scores of 18 or better (before racial adjustment). Your bonus ability point for reaching 4th level is not counted against your points.

8th level: you start with minimum ability scores of 8 in every score. You have 33 character points with which to buy ability points. Each ability point costs one character point, but costs 2 for each point starting with an ability score of 17. Before racial adjustment, you cannot have any score above 18, nor any that are below 8. Your bonus ability point for reaching 4th level is not counted against your points.

9th level: you start with minimum ability scores of 8 in every score. You have 31 character points with which to buy ability points (that's an average of 13). For points from 9-14, each character point buys one ability point. Adding to 15 or 16 costs 2 each, and 17 to 18 costs 3 each. Before racial adjustment, you cannot have any score above 18, nor any that are below 8. Your bonus ability points for reaching 4th and 8th level is not counted against your points.

Note: characters imported from The Giant Trilogy, the Treasure Hunt, the Secrets of Faerun, or the Legacy of Courage and Love begin at ECL 8 for all except the Treasure Hunt for which they are ECL 9. Imported characters may adjust their ability scores, including sub-abilities, to their flavor in the new roleplay to a reasonable degree, wherein 'reasonable' is defined by the GM. Characters from the Legacy of Courage and Love use the character-design specifications for seventh-level characters.

*

Step 2: if you wish to split any of your scores into sub-abilities, you may do so. If you do so, for each score you divide, you may then add 1, 2, or 3, to one of the sub-abilities for each score, subtracting the same number from the corresponding sub-ability. You can also add/subtract 0, and then accept racial adjustments. You cannot raise any one sub-ability to more than 18 (before race adjustment), and you cannot cause them to differ by more than 6 (thus, adding/subtracting 1, 2, or 3). Your race adjustment can extend the difference between sub-abilities beyond their normal limits.

You can split anywhere from zero to all six of your ability scores. Ability scores that you do not split can be left as-are (in theory, all characters have split scores, but because in every case each racial difference is within the 6-point limit, it can be assumed that you simply pick adjustments to be then equalized by your racial adjustments). Scores that are not split follow the normal rules; a character with no split ability scores follows the 3.5 D&D rules exactly, except that Concentration is now Wisdom-modified.

Step 3: you begin with 36,000 gp for equipment. You make your equipment from the DMG.

*

Multiclassing Encouragements

In order to encourage multiclassing (something which I think is actively discouraged by TSR), I have decided upon the following rules adjustments:

-Characters can choose any number of disperate classes together for the purposes of multiclassing, and recieve no experience penalty for having too many. There is no favored class. There is also no penalty for having unequal numbers of class levels.

-Monks and paladins may multiclass freely, as any other class. A monk or paladin who takes levels of another class can freely return to taking levels of paladin or monk. The release from this restriction does not apply if the paladin or monk has since taken an alignment not acceptable to paladin or monk.

-Druids and monks may freely use weapons they are proficient with from other classes or feats. Monks do not get the extra attacks while using melee weapons not on the monk's proficiency list, but they can use other weapons normally.

-Spellcasting levels of different spellcasting classes are considered to stack. This does not affect the spellcasting table for any class, but spells that depend on caster levels or if a spellcasting level check is needed, class levels are considered to stack, even if one class is an arcane spellcaster and the other divine.

-The distinction between arcane and divine spellcasting is removed for the purposes of satisfying prerequisites for prestige classes.


Equipment Additions:

Arquebus* - simple weapon, 30 gp, 8 lb, damage 1d10, 19-20/x3, range increment 50', takes 3 rounds to reload, 5 sp per shot (includes bullet and powder), requires two hands

Bayonet** - simple weapon, 1 gp, 1 lb, damage 1d6, 20/x3, melee, one hand weapon

Fusil* - martial weapon, 50 gp, 10 lb, damage 1d12, 19-20/x4, range increment 60', takes 4 rounds to reload, 5 sp per shot (includes bullet and powder), requirs two hands

Handgonne* (pistol) - simple weapon, 20 gp, 5 lb, damage 1d8, 19-20/x3, range increment 15', takes 3 rounds to reload, 5 sp per shot (includes bullet and powder), one-hand weapon

Monks are considered proficient with bayonettes. Bayonettes are considered applicable monk weapons (i.e. monks will get the extra attacks when using them). Wizards are considered proficient with handgonnes.

*Nonmagical armor is considered to be half as effective as normal against guns (round armor boni down). Magical armor is similarly reduced. Magical boni to AC are applied after the armor's effectiveness is halved, and are consequently themselves provide normal benefits. Dodge AC bonuses are treated normally because by manuevering yourself you are still difficult to hit, not because you can actually dodge any bullets. If a gun takes N rounds to load, it can be fired on the Nth round. Last, guns may fire up to 15 range increments away (at a whopping -28 to hit!).

**A quarterstaff with a bayonet can be treated as as both a bludgeoning and slashing weapon. A bayonet mounted on an arquebus or fusil is purely a piercing weapon. If you have proficiency in a bayonet but not the weapon to which it is attached, or proficiency in the weapon to which it is attatched but not the bayonet itself, you may still use functions of the weapon you have proficiency in without penalty.


Additions to Feats:

Aimed Attack
Requirements: Base Attack Bonus +1
Coordination (Dexterity) 13+
Aim Attack functions identically to Power Attack, but benefits ranged weapons and light melee weapons as distinguished from normal melee weapons. You cannot double the damage bonus for using a weapon with multiple hands. Cannot be used against creatures immune to critical hits.

Addendum to Power Attack
When choosing Power Attack, you must decide whether to base it off of your muscle or your fitness. Power Attack, as it exists in the PHB, is the muscle-associated Power Attack, and functions identically to the muscle-based version. If you use your fitness, however, you cannot gain an additional damage bonus for using Power Attack two-handed and creatures immune to critical hits are not subject to the extra damage. However, you can use light weapons with your Power Attack and still get the damage bonus.


Spell Addenda:


Game of War
Illusion (Mind-affecting)*
Level: Bard 4, Wiz/Sor 5, War 5
Components: V, S
Casting time: Standard Action
Range: you
Targets: Sentient beings within a 5' per level radius
Duration: Instantaneous (but see text)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates, possibly Will also negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
*Creatures normally immune to mind-affecting spells are still affected.

You create an imaginary contest in which you and all targets within the area of effect participate. This imaginary contest takes place in an arena of the same shape and size of the area of effect. The contest ends when there is only one of the creatures targeted still living in the imaginary contest (hereafter referred to as the winner). At the end of this contest, each individual is queried for each participant they killed in-game about whether they would like said beings to actually die in reality or if they would prefer them to live in reality. The winner is also queried about every other participant, and makes the same decision as if the winner had killed each and every one of the targets. If both the winner and the killer of a given participant wish that participant dead, then the participant must roll a Fortitude save or actually die in reality. If either the winner or the killer of a participant, but not both, wishes said participant dead, then the participant still must make a Fortitude save or die, but this save is made at a +4 bonus. If neither the winner nor killer of a participant wish that participant dead, then the participant lives without need of a saving throw. Any creature who commits suicide in-game is considered to have a killer who wants them dead in reality; however, a creature that willingly permits itself to be executed by another creature in-game is considered to be killed by the executioner.

In the real world, the entire simulation takes place in an instant, but inside the illusion, the simulation can run for up to one hour per caster level. Participants can leave the initial area of effect and travel anywhere in the multiverse until the spell's duration expires, except that they cannot travel to planes upon which the passage of time is different from the plane where the spell is cast. If the spell's duration ends and multiple participants are still alive, any participants outside of the initial area of the effect are killed instantly (including those inside interdimensional spaces such as a Rope Trick or a Bag of Holding created or accessed within the illusion). These deaths are considered to be suicides. If there are multiple living participants within the area of effect when the duration ends, the "winner's" decision is for all dead participants to live, including those who were outside of the area of effect when the spell ended. If all remaining participants die simultaneously, or within the time frame of one round, then the "winner's" decision is for all participants to die in reality (thus forcing saving throws). Upon being affected by the spell, all participants are instantly familiar with the rules of the contest and its real-world aftereffects (as well as any peculiarities specific to the variant of the spell). However, nobody knows whether a given winner or killer wished another individual dead, only the final outcome. Apart from the possibility of death for losers of the contest, events that occur within the illusion have no effects upon the real world, such as loss or gain of hit points, use of magical or nonmagical items, ability damage or drain, level loss, or experience gain. If the spell is used in combat with one or more real hostiles, all real survivors do gain real experience appropriate to the defeat of a caster of appropriate challenge rating divided amongst them; the means of survival can be actually winning or otherwise surviving the contest, being killed by friendlies with a friendly winner, or successfully making a Fortitude save if either one's killer or the winner wishes an individual dead.

Undead creatures and constructs in the form of living creatures are affected as if they were the living creatures if they are in the area of effect. In-game, they function as either what they would be if they were living (for constructs), or what they were when they were alive (for undead). If they are then required to make a Fortitude save when the contest is over, they roll Will saves instead with a +4 bonus (cumulative with all other boni). Constructs and nonsentient undead retain the same physical stats and abilities as actual undead would; thus, a skeleton of a human wizard still has the hit points, armor class, and inherent appropriate to a skeleton, and cannot cast spells in-game. If figment-type illusions are in the area of effect when the spell is cast, their creator immediately makes a caster level check. The creator may include one HD of illusory creature if the caster level check reaches DC 20, and an additional HD for every two points it exceeds 20. In-game, these figments function as if they were real, but return to being their usual illusory selves out-of-game.

Note: read though the variants to further understand the “default” type of this spell.

Variants:
This spell has a lot of variants. Some of these are outlined as follows. Note that multiple variantations can be used in conjunction with each-other!

Initial Will Save variants
-Optional participation Will save: each creature in the area of effect is required to make a Will save. If the save fails, then the creature is forced to participate. If the save succeeds, then the creature can choose to participate or not (e.g. to help friends who failed their saves). Note that creatures who successfully resisted the spell via spell resistance also recieve this choice as though they made their will saves.
-Final effect Will save: each creature in the area of effect rolls a Will save, but the success or failure of the save has no effect on their participation: they must participate regardless. However, those who succeeded their saves are immune to death at the end of the scenario. As with the Fortitude save and the winner and killer’s decisions, the result of the Will save is not known, only the outcome. Note that creatures who successfully resisted the spell via spell resistance must participate but are immune to death as if they had rolled a successful will save.
-No save: there is no initial Will save. Everybody participates, except for those who escape it by means of spell resistance, which causes them to not participate. This variant increases the spell’s level by +2.

Weapon variants
-No weapons: participants are not supplied with weapons when the spell begins. They must use whatever weapons they have, unarmed if need be.
-Weapon grant: each participant is supplied with a weapon and is proficient in its use, regardless of whether their classes and/or feats would ordinarily allow it. The weapon can be anything - because the spell is an illusion and the combat is imaginary, there is no reason why the weapon cannot be a legendary artifact instead of a simple dagger. This variant requires a material component: the focus is a weapon of the type to be used or a model of such a weapon.
-Weapon requirement: each participant is supplied with a weapon as per the weapon grant variant, but unlike the weapon grant variant, participants are required to use the weapon they have been supplied with. Creatures ordinarily unable to use the weapon in question may still use their natural and extraordinary attacks, but not supernatural or spell-like attacks, unless the weapon granted happens to be a weapon with supernatural or spell-like powers, in which case such creatures may use supernatural or spell-like abilities if the weapon's abilities are of the same type. Weapons granted that normally feature class limitations do not have those limitations within the illusion.
-Special weapon rules: as with weapon requirement, but the functioning of the weapon, especially the effects of its damage, may not conform to the standard D&D rules. Creatures unable to use the weapon in question are able to use their natural, extraordinary, and supernatural, and spell-like powers, but they usually function in ways qualitiatively similar to the modified action of the weapon in question.

Area of effect variants
-The area of effect can be doubled for a +2 increase to the spell’s level. This doubling can be used as many times as a caster has a higher-level spell slot. The area of effect can also be tripled for a +3 increase to the spell’s level.

Range variants
-With a +2 increase to the spell’s level, the spell’s range can be increased to Medium (thus not affecting the caster). With a +4 increase to the spell’s level, the range can be increased to Long.

Deadliness variants
-With a -2 decrease to the spell’s level, the spell can be made benign. The combat takes place, but there is no chance of death at the end of the spell.


Common Tactics
Between Iunar’s advice and his own research, Corim was probably able to find the this information. If Corim sought Aimienna’s advice, he almost certainly found this information. The rest of you (Muldro, Telpenar, Iona) could know this on a DC 25 Knowledge (arcana) check, or with a DC 20 Knowledge (arcana) and a DC 20 Spellcraft check.

-Use in populated areas: this spell is effective at causing apprehension and mistrust, because there is only one winner or one killer in any combat and that winner can possibly kill people if he or she decides to and be difficult to trace who is responsible, especially considering that victims have to fight it out anyway. By sewing mistrust, of course, it makes the above scenario all of the more likely, and as a result is generally useful as a terror weapon. This, apparently, was the use in the attack on Elendell two days before the main story begins.

-Use in uninhabited areas or in warfare: this spell is useful for a small number of characters with good saving throws, good enough to make the spell's Will and Fort saves reliably, for thinning out a larger number of weaker opponents. This is especially true with the Final Effect Will Save variant. Conversely, this spell can also be used for multiple fighters to gang up on a stronger opponent. This is especially effective using some of the weapon-granting variants.

-Use as an assassination tool: variants of this spell can be useful in performing assassination attempts with relatively low risk to the assassins if they should fail, albeit with a higher likelihood of the attempt failing. At the very least, the actual identity of the assassins can be difficult to trace if the attempt is made in such an imaginary contest.

-General defense against this spell: the deadliness and overall destructiveness of Game of War varies greatly depending on the circumstance in which it is used, and as a result the tactics effective at countering it likewise vary. Combat in most variants is extremely chaotic because of its free-for-all nature, and as a result predicting the identity of the final winner is always difficult unless the number of targets is very small. If the spell is used in a populated area where the locals generally gets along harmoniously, the winner will generally be one of the local populace and will assign everybody or nearly everybody to life. As a result, in such a setting, the most effective way to protect somebody valued or important in-game is, ironically, to execute them yourself, since such a practice is unlikely to affect the identity of the winner and guarantees that the killer of the subjects wants them to live. This is especially true if you believe or expect that one of the uses of an enemy of this spell is to stage an assassionation attempt. In a war situation, or in another situation in which clearly-defined factions already exist, then this practice increases the likelihood that the winner will be of an enemy faction and may increase the risk for the executed instead of decrease it.


Retroactive Survival
Divination
Level: Bard 5, Wiz/Sor 5, Trickery 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: One minute
Range: unlimited
Targets: A dead creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You envision an alternate history of a particular target dead creature. If you know the circumstances of the creature's death and if there is one or a few chance events that, had they turned out differently, the creature would have lived, you modify the effect of subsequent Raise Dead, Ressurection, or True Ressurection on the target creature. Instead of restoring the creature's soul to its body and thus causing it to revive from the dead, these spells realize the alternate history you envision by the use of this spell, thus causing the person to never have died, instead of coming back from the dead. This spell thus allows you to revive fallen friends without having to recall their souls, which is otherwise often very difficult and requires an extremely stiff price from the Powers that govern the dead - not that messing with time like this can't have its own stiff prices. Raise Dead and Ressurection do not realize the alternate history completely, and as a result the target creature still does lose an experience level or constitution point if "revived" in this manner, however. Thus, in circumstances in which souls are available to be restored by revival magic, Retroactive Survival will serve little useful purpose.

Retroactive Survival only works if there is the possibility that the target could have survived given better luck or equitable circumstances. If the target died facing overwhelming odds and there are no extinuating circumstances (e.g. the target would not have faced such odds if not for an unlucky Listen check that led to the encounter), then Retroactive Survival will not envision an alternate history in which the character could have lived. Retroactive Survival also only operates in fairly simple situations; if more than a few minutes pass between the dooming event and the fatal injury of the target, it will be difficult to actually envision the alternative history. Lastly, you must be familiar with the circumstances of the events, either having witnessed them yourself or having observed them using other means of divination. Otherwise, you will not be able to envision the alternate history in an accurate enough way for it to potentially become real. The target also must be willing (or have been willing) in order for the alternate history to be realized.

Material component: A diamond of value at least 1000 gp. Although the diamond is not actually consumed by the spell, the creation of the alternate history invariably involves the gem not entering your possession; thus, it is effectively lost.



Summon Soldier I
(Conjuration, Summoning)
Level: Clr 1, Drd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, (DF), True Magic Invocation (see below)
Casting Time: 1 Round
Range: Close (25 ft + 5 ft/2 levels)
Effect: one summoned creature
Duration: concentration plus one round
Saving Throw: none
Spell resistance: no

This spell summons one person (an intelligent, usually civilized creature) who volunteers to take part as a summoned warrior for your cause. She appears fully armed and armored with equipment that was given or assigned to her possession for the purpose of this summoning, and acts on your turn. Her equipment must have been allotted to her, individually; equipment allotted to another character or communally owned between her and another potential summon cannot be brought with her. The individual understands the basic situation at hand as you do at the moment of summoning; thus, she knows who are your friends and enemies and of any tactical circumstances you are aware of but she might otherwise not (e.g. if you know of the whereabouts of a hidden trap, then she knows what you know). However, she retains her free will and cannot be compelled to follow your orders by this spell.

She remains present for as long as the spell functions, and disappears when it ends. When the spell ends, she is restored to whatever state she was in before she was summoned, with no loss or gain of hit points, spells, or condition. If killed, she likewise remains dead for the duration of the spell, but her life is restored as soon as the spell ends. She does not gain experience for defeating enemies while summoned, although she can share in story-based awards for helping you accomplish some goal, including defeating an enemy. Sleeping people are likewise continue their sleep undisturbed when they return from the summons.

The summoned person is summoned as a first-level character of any class she possesses. The choice of which of her classes to be is hers to make. If her level is normally higher than first, she is still summoned as a first-level character. She cannot herself summon or otherwise conjure another creature by any means, nor can she use any teleportation or planar travel abilities that she may possess, either innately or through spells.

The person whom you summon will be a person identified unambiguously on a list of potential summons (usually she identifies herself by signing her name to the list). You do not need the list to be physically present to cast the spell, but you must refer to it in the casting. The spell summons the first person on the list if it can, and then proceeds in the order of names on the list. Unwilling targets cannot be summoned; the spell will simply pass over unwilling targets on the list until it finds a willing and acceptable target. Potential targets that are unwilling are left unaware that the spell has attempted to summon them, but they make their decisions as though they were not only aware of the spell but also the identity of its caster. If there are no targets available, the spell is not expended but the round is lost.

If a person summoned is killed or banished during the summoning, then the levels or hit dice of the people summoned cannot be summoned again for a period of time dependent upon the Invocation power available to you (see below). If a person has multiple levels, then that person can be summoned and killed or banished once for each level available. If a 'person' has multiple creature hit dice, then she cannot be summoned with fewer levels than her creature dice. If these multiple levels are associated with different character classes, then these are the classes that may be lost to her ability to choose when she is summoned.

Invocation cost: the use of this spell depends upon True Magic. It can be cast under any circumstances, but the time it takes for a killed or banished target to be summonable again varies depending on True Magic circumstances. Under ideal conditions, the wait time is a year and a day, but under less favorable circumstances, one hundred and forty-four years is the standard without True Magic support.

Special: Scrolls, wands, and other spell-storing items have the list of potential targets specified as part of the creation of the item. Also, it is not possible to forge another person's signature for the summoning list; the signer is the person who did the signing.


Higher level versions of Summon Soldier - Similar to the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally series spells, Summon Soldier also has another eight spells that go up in level. They differ from Summon Soldier I in the following ways:
-Duration is concentration plus one round per spell level.
-Maximum character level of the target is equal to the level of the spell.
-Higher level spells can summon more soldiers of lower level than the spell. The number summoned is doubled for every level below the highest, to a maximum of 64 (for six levels down).
-If summoning multiple individuals, they can be summoned into basic military formations (i.e. rank and file), a certain number wide and deep. The center of the formation must be within the range when the spell is cast, but not all of the targets need be.


Tactical notes - In practice, the Hylar usually combine this spell with Sonorous Hum.

About 50% of adult Elves (both male and female) and of the Hylarin tribe are registered on a list somewhere with one of the military hierarchies of the Hylarin Empire. The percentage is about 20-25% for other races (in Humans, about 30% of men, about 10% of women). Of those living in large towns or cities, the number of people on lists is about 10% higher for all races and sexes for people living in said towns and cities. All able-bodied citizens are required to be members of the local militia if they are not otherwise in military service, and are trained in the use of some weapon or weapons that they will use if summoned and they are not actual soldiers. For Elves, this is most often shortbow and club (for men) or shortbow and spear (for women), but nobility will usually bring other weapons, usually rapiers if female nobility and a mixture of rapiers, longswords, or other military weapons if male. For Humans it is usually shortspear or club, but exceptions to these rules are common. Most non-military citizens do not own armor, although when summoned they will be clothed.

The summoners will generally prefer to summon Elves when possible, but will summon Humans if desperate or if it is otherwise appropriate (e.g. summon the villagers to protect their village from the enemy that is still a mile away).

*

Forseen Course
(Divination)
Level: Wiz/Sor 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Hour
Range: Unlimited
Effects: up to 100 targets per level (see text)
Duration: Instantaneous (see text)
Saving Throw: Will special (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (see text)

You forsee a possible future based upon a particular course of action that you can undertake or otherwise cause. In the possible future, you, the other spellcasters who partook of the spell's casting, and any who witness the casting or who are made aware of it (including those you tell) realize that this is an envisioned possible future. This possible future is envisioned for one day per three caster levels to a maximum of seven days at 21st caster level. In the possible future, you and everybody else can do whatever they wish in whatever way they would, with or without the knowledge that they are experiencing a simulated possible future and not a real future. In all other ways, the spell's action performs as a simulated universe for the number of days foreseen.

You can designate up to 100 points worth of targets per caster level of the spell. All targets must succeed at a Will save in order to remember the outcome of the spell's forecast from their own perspective (as if they had experienced it in a dream). The DC of the Will save is 30 for targets designated with a single point, but the DC is lowered by 5 for every factor of 10 in points you spend on a target (e.g. DC 30 for 1 point, DC 25 for 10, DC 20 for 100, etc.). You may distribute these points in any way that you see fit at the time of casting the spell. A person cannot experience the spell's forecast except for what they would experience themselves; thus, characters who make their saves can recall details of what they saw or heard, conversations they had, and what they were doing up until the moment of their deaths, but cannot know anything that they did not experience directly or indirectly in such a fashion.

A creature hostile to you can attempt a saving throw and require a spell resistance check to not be present in the spell's forseeing. The save is made at a -10 penalty and you get a +10 bonus on your spell resistance check, and a natural 20 on either does not indicate an automatic success nor a natural 1 an automatic failure (note that these apply only to those trying to resist the spell; the will saves of those who may learn the results follow the normal rules). If the creature manages to resist the spell, then it is effectively not present in the resulting "simulated universe".

Although this spell forecasts characters' actions as best it can, the forecast does not correct for any effects of individuals' knowledge that they are experiencing a possible future and not a real one. Furthermore, although it can anticipate the actions, positions, and motivations of creatures and events, it cannot anticipate random chance; thus, if this spell is used to forsee the outcome of a battle, die rolls that affect the outcome of that battle in the future forseen by the spell are entirely independent of die rolls should the real battle actually take place.

Material Component: a ceremony costing 100 gp to prepare and requires four other spellcasters each of which is able to cast spells of fifth level or higher (they can be of any class, arcane or divine). The other casters do not expend any spells from their spell slots.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign

[This message has been edited by Beren V (edited 08-19-2008 @ 08:55 PM).]

Replies:
posted 11-12-06 02:48 PM EDT (US)     1 / 1295  
Excellent idea Beren!
I think it could work very well.

I have lots of comments, questions and suggestions:

First of all, how is character generation going to work, and what about ability scores gained with levels?

Here is my suggestion:
Abilities are generated as normal for the 6 original abilities. Race adjustments are then made and then the player can shift each paired ability with 1 or 2 points.

A character with 15 strength could for example get one point shifted towards muscle so he end up with 16 muscle and 14 fitness or a character with 14 Dexterity could end up with 16 agility and 12 coordination

When ability points are gained from levels, a player can chose to add one point to an original ability (thereby adding 1 to each of the two sub-abilities) or he can add 2 points to one sub-ability.

At no time can two paired differ with more than 6 points though. So a character with for example 12 muscle and 18 fitness will have to increase his muscle in order to increase his fitness any further.

I also think that characters should still have the original abilities even when using the sub-abilities there may be cases where for example agility and coordination are equally important and in such cases the original dexterity ability could be used. (12 coordination and 16 agility would be 14 base intelligence for example)


The abilities one by one:

Strength:

Quote:

Fitness affects the attack modifier for melee attacks, attacks with thrown weapons, and attacks with mighty weapons


Attacks with thrown weapons and mighty weapons are modified by dexterity (coordination) I see no reason to change that.
What about strength checks for trip, bull rush, overrun and smashing things? And what about grabble checks?
I suggest that that smashing things, bull rush and overrun depends only on muscle and that trip and grapple depends on the base strength ability.

Dexterity:
You have not mentioned open lock and slight of hand, both should depend on coordination IMO.
Being a good Escape artist requires both god agility and coordination IMO, so it should depend on the base dex ability.

Constitution
Having high Ruggedness is far better then having high Health. I suggest that hp depend on the basic constitution score and that fortitude saves against poison depend on health. The health modifier could also be added to the number of hp you gain when resting. (see about elves later)

Intelligence
Knowledge skills should clearly be memory based IMO and as memory also is somewhat important for appraise, it should be based on the base intelligence score.

Wisdom
You have not mentioned Heal and survival, but they should probably be based on Perception

Charisma
You have not mentioned turning checks, smite, divine grace, lay on hands etc….
I suggest that anything magical or supernatural (including use magic device) depends on Destiny (I don’t like that name much, what about calling it power instead?)
Anything else would depend on Magnetism.


Race modifiers:

Elves: The problem with elves is that you don’t really give them a penalty, so assuming they keep their dex bonus you have just improved them quite a lot.
I suggest -2 ruggedness and -2 muscle or -4 ruggedness (and perhaps -2 muscle and +2 fitness as well) or if you want them really extreme: -4 ruggedness, +2 health, -4 muscle, +2 fitness.
They keep their dex bonus of course.

Dwarves: Again, your suggestion makes them better than they are now.
I suggest that no change is made or that they simply has +2 ruggedness and -2 magnetism or that they has +2 con, -2 magnetism and -2 agility

Halflings: I suggest that they keep their +2 dex, but have -2 muscle and –2 ruggedness

Half-orcs: Half-orcs are quite unpopular because of the double penalty they get (both int and cha) I suggest that they get: -2 int, -2 cha, +2 ruggedness and +4 muscle

Gnomes: Perhaps they should just have -2 muscle and +2 ruggedness

Other stuff:
There is a lot of feats with ability requirements that you don’t have mentioned, but in each case it is generally relative easy to say with sub-ability that is important and if both are important the base ability could just be used or the best of the sub-abilities like with power attack.

Intimidate: I suggest that characters can their muscle modifier in place of magnetism modifier for this skill.

There is probably more ability depended stuff I lave not thought of yet…..


Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod

[This message has been edited by Kris Lighthawk (edited 11-12-2006 @ 02:49 PM).]

posted 11-12-06 03:08 PM EDT (US)     2 / 1295  
I don't like this sub-abilities thing, but that's largely because I'm against anything that makes D&D any more complicated than it already is.
posted 11-12-06 03:24 PM EDT (US)     3 / 1295  
Yes that would be the main argument against using the sub-abilities and perhaps a good enough one to not do so….

Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod
posted 11-12-06 03:30 PM EDT (US)     4 / 1295  
With a sub-ability system like this, I won't play. If it was normal rules, I would. Just so you know. (But you know how I am about sticking to the rules for the most part.)

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 11-12-06 08:04 PM EDT (US)     5 / 1295  
First things first...

I added 'Great Magic' and 'Expanded Hit Point Rules' to the items on the table.

Quoted from that one elf:

With a sub-ability system like this, I won't play. If it was normal rules, I would. Just so you know. (But you know how I am about sticking to the rules for the most part.)

Notice that if your subscores are the same, in almost every case, you use the normal D&D rules. If you want to play by the rules, you can do so! Indeed, I expect that most characters will use the normal rules, or be very close to them, because most character concepts don't need radically different scores. But there are some that do.

Remember, you never know what's going on behind the DM's screen, or at least you aren't supposed to. You aren't really supposed to even know what is on the other players' character sheets, although players can show them to you if you like, but they don't have to. In a forum, like this, everything has to be more on the table, but DMs in particular can and do break rules. If what you want is the simplicty of D&D, or just to be able to look up the rules in your book, then play by them. The rules that I am creating are intended to expand upon and seamlessly blend into the existing rules, so that you can play with the original rules if you so desire.

Do you still not want to play?


Quoted from Lighthawk:

First of all, how is character generation going to work, and what about ability scores gained with levels?

Here is my suggestion:
Abilities are generated as normal for the 6 original abilities. Race adjustments are then made and then the player can shift each paired ability with 1 or 2 points.

I was thinking of something along those lines, although I think that capping the maximum difference between scores at 8, rather than 6, is perhaps preferable. Generally, I think your ideas here are good.

In fact, I think most of your ideas are good ideas, and I've already edited them in. Many in fact I had intended to note but overlooked. I will only comment further about things I think are iffy.


Quoted from Lighthawk:

Attacks with thrown weapons and mighty weapons are modified by dexterity (coordination) I see no reason to change that.

I thought that I remembered that attack rolls using thrown weapons and mighty weapons used both Strength and Dexterity. Therefore, I was qualifying which aspect of Strength applied to them; certainly, I intended them to remain modified by Dexterity as well. Can you illuminate me on this?


Quoted from Lighthawk:

Having high Ruggedness is far better then having high Health. I suggest that hp depend on the basic constitution score and that fortitude saves against poison depend on health. The health modifier could also be added to the number of hp you gain when resting

I did this in part because it does make Elves not quite so strong, although I want to change this. Certainly saves against poison should not be health-based, since resistance to poison depends a lot on body mass, and health is supposed to be independent of that: a sixty-ton brachiosaur could easily have the same health score as a one-milligram gnat, but the brachiosaur is going to be far more resistant to being poisoned.

See the extended hit point system (I know this will probably annoy the crap out of that one elf, but...).

Quoted from Lighthawk:

Knowledge skills should clearly be memory based IMO and as memory also is somewhat important for appraise, it should be based on the base intelligence score.

Here is what I was thinking: You're a biologist. If I were going to cast you in d20 Modern, you would have ranks in Knowledge (biology), and probably quite a bit of it in fact. If you were to come across a biological enigma to which you did not know the answer, you would try to formulate a guess based on what you do know combined with your biological insight, and if you were really good you would figure out a way to test it, which definitely requires insight more than memory.

Now, I suppose I have two options: either Knowledge (biology) can be an Insight-based skill, in which your ranks in Knowledge (biology), being limited by your memory, are then modified by your insight. Alternatively, I could have you roll a Knowledge (biology) check, and if you failed [you don't know it], I could have you then roll a Profession (scientist) check, which is a Perception-based skill, to see if you could guess the probable answer, even if you don't know for sure.

Quoted from Lighthawk:

Destiny (I don’t like that name much, what about calling it power instead?)

I changed it to Potential. Power can mean too many different things (e.g. Strength).

Quoted from Lighthawk:

Elves... -4 ruggedness, +2 health, -4 muscle, +2 fitness.

Edited.

Quoted from Lighthawk:

Halflings: I suggest that they keep their +2 dex, but have -2 muscle and –2 ruggedness

Halflings are as tough as nails in Tolkien at least. I'm giving them -2 Potential, because I picture them as extremely nonmagical, but they don't lose any ruggedness (or, if they do, they get a health bonus to counterbalance).

Quoted from Lighthawk:

Intimidate: I suggest that characters can their muscle modifier in place of magnetism modifier for this skill.

I disagree, but that is because I think I have a different opinion of what Intimidate is than you do.

Obvious physical danger is definitely intimidating. Black Hound even has a morale system for his Therin game mechanics that can force even player characters (gasp!) to fail morale checks. Although I am unsure of whether I agree with the mechanics of his system, I like the concept, and would like to implement one somehow. So although Muscle might not modify the Intimidate skill, it certainly is frightening if a big, hulking character with a powerful-looking melee weapon comes your way, but that is not necessarily any more intimidating than having a less muscular person pull out a gun and point it at you.

Intimidate the skill, to me, therefore, is more related to Bluff, which is definitely Magnetism-based: it is the ability to scare somebody without the obvious show of force. Maybe you really are bluffing, maybe you're not, but the person you're trying to intimidate can't see what you obviously are planning to do to him/her if he/she doesn't do what you want. Somebody who is successfully intimidated via the skill might think something along the lines of "well, I don't know if Lighthawk can do all of that, but I don't want to take the chance!" as opposed to "If I don't do what he says, that wolf of his is going to rip my throat out!"


-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 11-13-06 07:01 PM EDT (US)     6 / 1295  
Alright, you know what? I don't really buy all your changes, but I think I'm willing to play anyway. As long as it doesn't make a huge effect on my round-by-round actions, I can live with that. I'll just need a little help making my character sheet. I've just got to not think about it so much as being D&D v3.5 rules, but instead something like D&D v3.75 rules, or D&D vBeren rules.

I'll give it a shot.

Even before you get the rest of your rules worked out entirely, I may want to start writing up a character sheet. What level are we going to start at? How many ability points do we start with?

I'm thinking about playing a spellcasting class this time, unlike any of the characters I'm playing in the other threads. This means I may have to worry about Great Magic, but that's fine. Is every class open (like the Warlock, Warmage, and Wu Jen classes from Complete Arcane)?


Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 11-13-06 09:19 PM EDT (US)     7 / 1295  
How will this thread be able to be combined with the other threads?? the rules and different aspects("Great magic" and "sub-abilities") I think are too different.

I think what you have come up with Beren is pretty good,and more to real life,so to speak.But I think it will encumber the game to much for me anyway.My time is limited and for me to have to worry about the new stuff you want to add will eliminate me from playing,and i would vote against it having any thing to do with the other threads,on the simple fact that if it does cross over into the other threads then we will have to start dealing the new things you are introducing here.

But....don't get me wrong,I say again i think what you are adding is more realistic,but I'll have to Bow out of playing cause i don't have the time really to learn it all good enough so you all won't have to be correcting my posts and continually answering my questions.I'm having enough trouble finding the needed time in the "plain" D@D threads I'm playing in,but... I'd like to add... I would like to start a "Half Giant" character i saw in one of the books Eros had when i went over to Eros' house last saturday

I would also like to see us kind of correct/"even out" our characters in the giant trilogy,some of our characters are all out of wack there,I would be willing to change the things about Zandallair to get him closer to the rules.I mean...Eros has feats he shouldn't have,Beren and Luthien have 6 to 8 more ability points than the rest of us,my swords way to powerfull for my level really(I mean there is no way he could have bought it at this time).I say this only because we are thinking of getting the threads together(which i think is a neat idea)But i think there should be "ONE" set of rules for building characters,so the characters we build(no matter what thread they are in) will all start from the same starting point(basicly the starting ability points should be the same).I am most familiar with Faerun(and still learning) at the moment and hoped that we would place our threads on Faerun somewhere.because when you guys start talking about Arda and now you want to add the stuff from...what did Beren say?...the "Magic cards" or some other game or add things from some books that i haven't read....I'm lost...

I'm just one person and can Bow out of playing if you all want to get more detailed,I'm having fun at what we are doing now, but if you all want to get more detailed about playing by all means go for it, you have enough players without me slowing things down because i don't know what going on,if you know what i mean.


People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me
Into darkness, into night, amongst the shadows we shall fight!
-/X\( ++ ) /X\-L.E.D.- Hand of Malice-/X\( ++ ) /X\-
posted 11-14-06 01:44 AM EDT (US)     8 / 1295  
Again, I need to stress: both the sub-ability system and great magic are optional; they integrate seamlessly into the existing rules. You could easily play Zandalair, Eros, or anybody else from the Giant Trilogy in this system and not change them one bit (well, except for Eros, but that's only because he's got levels of Arcane Archer without satisfying the prereqs, not because of any rules in this system!). If all of the sub-ability pairs are equal to the other pair, then it's just like the normal rules, the only exception being that Concentration is Wisdom-based, something that we have already accepted for the Giant Trilogy.

As for Great Magic, for now, it's a plot device, and nothing more than that. Obviously, something like it must exist in D&D, otherwise artifact-level magic items couldn't get made in the first place. As for magic cards, it was inspiration only: the rules that I (we) eventually come up with will not necessarily be holden to it at all.


TOE, if you disagree with the accuracy of anything I am posting, please tell me! I'm putting them on the table so that they can be a working system before play!

Levels... I am not sure at the moment: input would be appreciated. Higher than most of the games currently running, I suspect. I am toying with the idea of a "level-point-buy" idea by which players can chose to play characters that start at higher level, have better base ability scores, or start with more and better equipment, or some combination thereof.

As for characters and character backgrounds, now that you're starting to think of it, one of the PCs is a person whom Princess Aimienna knows, trusts, and who has worked with her in the past, and the rest of you are are known to and acquainted with the aforementioned PC (and possibly with Aimienna as well). So, for instance, somebody from Zandalair's party could know Aimienna, and recruit the rest of the party, or something like that. The same could be done for the Secrets of Faerun (I am missing my set of special keys, sorry), assuming that we've all adventured with each-other for a while. Aimienna herself is (obviously) an elf, her alignment is apparently neutral good, she has Druidic leanings (although whether or not she is a Druid is not known at this point), and class-wise she is a mix of an arcane spellcaster, a divine spellcaster, and some kind of warrior, probably Ranger.


-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 11-14-06 04:27 PM EDT (US)     9 / 1295  
I must say I don't like the idea of a character's level being inverse with his equipment. Not only do higher level characters tend to have better equipment, but some classes (like the monk and arcane spellcasters) are far less equipment-dependent than others (like fighters and clerics). Naturally, if you need heavy armor and a good weapon and shield, it costs more than if you add your wisdom bonus to your AC and fight with your fists.

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 11-14-06 07:13 PM EDT (US)     10 / 1295  
I don't and can't disagree with accuracy,I think it is well thought out for that matter,I just guess for me it is alittle too indepth thats all,you'll have more things to be worrying about it seems.Like 'some' of the Skills we are playing with now which i think are rediculous to have to worry about.the goofy skills are enough for me right now.But i don't know, maybe it won't be as complicated as i think

People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me
Into darkness, into night, amongst the shadows we shall fight!
-/X\( ++ ) /X\-L.E.D.- Hand of Malice-/X\( ++ ) /X\-
posted 11-15-06 06:49 AM EDT (US)     11 / 1295  
Actually I have a friend that may want in on a game. Though I doubt he would want to play under these "expanded" rules. And for that matter I would like to join another game, but only under standard 3.5 rules. I have a hard enough time learning and understanding the rules as they are. I certainly can't create more. A few changes such as making "Use Magic Device" an inclass skill for sorcerers I can agree with, but that's about it. The only rules I don't completely agree with is how to generate ability scores. My prefered method is they way we did it for Secrets of Faerun, with 80 total ability points.
posted 11-18-06 01:13 AM EDT (US)     12 / 1295  

Quote:

I don't and can't disagree with accuracy,I think it is well thought out for that matter,I just guess for me it is alittle too indepth thats all,you'll have more things to be worrying about it seems.

You don't have to go any more in-depth than you already are.

Just to drive the point home, here is what Zandallair would look like, if we were to even write out his sub-scores

ZANDALLAIR BEARCLAW

Muscle: 18 (+4)
Fitness: 18 (+4)
Agility: 12 (+1)
Coordination: 12 (+1)
Ruggedness: 16 (+3)
Health: 16 (+3)
Memory: 13 (+1)
Insight: 13 (+1)
Devotion: 12 (+1)
Perception: 12 (+1)
Magnetism: 8 (-1)
Potential: 8 (-1)

Now, notice that there is no difference in the rules between this Bearclaw and the Giant Trilogy Bearclaw.
The rules allow for a more complicated character, but they don't need it.

If you will, these rules are optional - some players may take advantage of them, but others, indeed I assume most, will not. I'm not adding any complexity except to those players who want the additional complexity, which you (and your friend, Trogg) do not. As for NPCs, let's just say that you, the players, don't know what is going on behind the GM screen!


Quote:

I must say I don't like the idea of a character's level being inverse with his equipment. Not only do higher level characters tend to have better equipment, but some classes (like the monk and arcane spellcasters) are far less equipment-dependent than others (like fighters and clerics). Naturally, if you need heavy armor and a good weapon and shield, it costs more than if you add your wisdom bonus to your AC and fight with your fists.

Point taken.

What I was thinking about was a combination of balance, i.e. players can play characters with powerful scores and low levels, or higher levels and less powerful scores. I just threw a suggestion out there. What do you think would be good? I somehow want the party level to be at least about 7, possibly 9, depending. Do you have any ideas?


-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 11-18-06 06:17 AM EDT (US)     13 / 1295  
Hmmm........so..Beren are you wanting the other threads to start using these rules?,I mean the other threads almost would have to really.It seems it would be hard to run it if a battle would start and half the persons involved were playing with one set of rules while the other half are using different rules(that is 'if' the characters from different threads do get into the same battle). Because I am assuming that you'll have to change the monsters abillity scores also(giving them sub-abillities), to be the same as that of the player characters attacking them.So i assume you intend to keep track of who(each pc player) is using which set of rules so you play the monster correctly,but i guess that would just be more work for the DM.

as i said before,if the monsters are following the "more realistic" rules,then it kinda "off set" each other and keeping track of them is fruitless.I mean when we fight.....we get fatigued....the monsters also are getting fatigued(I think the differnt amount of hit points for each monster getting fatigued faster or slower than his comrade,takes that into account)like someone said before that they didn't like "cookie cutter" monster.ok no problem, so take the time to give each monster different amount of hit points.Also...as the monster fights he gets in good swings and bad swings,I think the role of the dice indicates that, as well as the damage done roles(including critical hits)

I would say to keep things on an even playing field you then will have to get rid of the "cross class" in the skills department,letting each player descide for himself what skills he wants to put his skill points on with no penalties. and 'EVERYONE' starts out with the 'SAME' number of skill points to place where he/she wants too.


Roadamer and i came up with a racing game and we found that the more realistic we tried to be(meaning you had to start making roles for just about everything and trying to take everything into account) we realised it started to slow the game down.instead of enjoying the game we started to try to analyze each round to see if "what happened" would have really happened the way it did.do you see my point?

you bring up justifiable points (the rules have some faults)and the "sub-abillity" idea is maybe more to real life,but i think the game has taken some of these things into account already.

as far as the "Great magic" idea goes, i think the magic "Weave" that Faerun has, addresses that,saying that there are areas in Faerun that are still affected by the "Weave" magic that almost can't be nullified.As well as some of the powerful relics created by the gods

but..will wait to see the completed rules you descide on


People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me
Into darkness, into night, amongst the shadows we shall fight!
-/X\( ++ ) /X\-L.E.D.- Hand of Malice-/X\( ++ ) /X\-
posted 11-18-06 09:11 AM EDT (US)     14 / 1295  
Hmm, lots of discussion here, so I will just make some general points rather that trying to make comments to what everyone has said….

Sub-abilities:
Sub-abilities are really only going to affect character generation and (to a lesser degree) character level up, so as soon as a character is made, sub-abilities are going to have little direct effect on combat and use of skills, because ability scores are seldom used directly. So playing with sub-abilities is really not going to make the rulers much more complicated in the actual game play (only character generation is going to be more complicated).

As Beren has pointed out it is indeed possible to make a character that don’t make use of sub-abilities, but such character would be less optimised and thereby somewhat weaker then a character that make full use of sub-abilities.

Expanded Hit Point Rules:
I really like the idea, it is much better than your earlier ideas Beren. It also would fit very well with the sub-abilities for constitution. I think I like the ideas of 2 (smaller) HD on each level (with some classes getting more or less vitality/extended wounds than others) better than the other ways to gain vitality and extended wound points. I also think that ruggedness should add to extended wounds [i]and[i] that health should add to vitality. I realize that characters would get more overall hp that way, but so would their opponents, so that is not really a problem.
I also suggest that any character that has lost all his vitality points should suffer the normal fatigue penalty (-2 str, -2 dex) until he regains some vitality points (by resting or by getting healed) Spells that remove fatigue (restoration spells) should also add some vitality points (an amount similar to a healing spell of the same level).
I also suggest that a character that takes core wound damage (and survives) become exhausted (move at half speed, -6 str, -6 dex)

The expanded hit point rules are going to have a much lager effect on combat than the sub-abilities and will actually make combat more complicated (mostly critical hits)

Great Magic:
Great magic already exist on Toril in form of elven high magic and other kind of magic that can’t be explained by “normal” magic. (I think is should be called high magic rather than great magic)

Although I like Beren’s ideas, I have no plans actually using them in any existing roleplays where I am DM, and I will not do so (with the possible exception of some high magic) unless the great majority of the players want me to do so (and that seems highly unlikely… )


Kris Lighthawk
Creator of Lighthawk's mod
posted 11-18-06 10:19 AM EDT (US)     15 / 1295  
Comments on Character Generation:

Starting at 9th level is strange to me, because I've spent the last few years working my ranger character from 1st level to 9th, even if we don't play that often. Me, Bearclaw, Roadamer, and Trogg play together around the table (our party, consisting of a ranger, a fighter/cleric, a rogue/fighter, and a sorcerer, respectively, works quite well), and once we sat down from 9:30 in the morning and played straight through to 10:30 at night and grew from level 8 to level 9 (some of us). One level.

At the same time, I find it a joy to write up such a strong character, because it's easy to start with levels of a prestige class and have a class that's well-developed.

For example, you could play a tattooed monk with two or three tattoos or a Fighter/Cleric (or Favored Soul) with levels of Champion of Corellon Larethian, an incredible prestige class (although it needs basically all of your ability scores to be high). Or you could just stick to a fighter and have a ton of feats (a 9th-level human fighter has 10 feats) and develop yourself as, say, a halberdier or an apt dual-wielder.

So... take that as you will.

As for an inverse relationship with level and ability points... as a class gains levels, you have access to more and more class features, but these also rely on your ability scores (usually, anyway). A fighter could probably favor levels over scores because of his feats, but a high-level caster with a low primary spellcasting ability is pretty worthless.

So I guess the system could work. My favorite way of assigning ability scores is that you can place a certain amount of points anywhere you would (no point buy or anything like that--I say if you want to have your dexterity be +5, the penalty isn't that it costs more points, it's that your other scores obviously suffer).

How about this:
Each of the base 6 scores starts at 8 (with sub-abilities, each of the 12 would start with 8). You receive the following amount of ability points depending on your starting level (with sub-ability points in parentheses):
7th-level: 34 (68)
8th-level: 32 (64)
9th-level: 30 (60)

I suppose that can be carried further in either direction as well, to the point where you're only first level, but you have ability scores that look like this:

Str: 20 (+5)
Dex: 18 (+4)
Con: 16 (+3)
Int: 14 (+2)
Wis: 14 (+2)
Cha: 12 (+1)

The only real problem I see with having the level difference is hit points and skills. A ninth-level character has potentially a lot more hp than a seventh-level. A 9th-level barbarian with a +3 con modifier has 105 hit points under the rules we use in the other threads, but a 7th-level fighter with a +2 con mod has only 72 (still considerable, though).

So it's up to you, but if it were up to me, we'd start at 8th level with 32 points to add in such a way (the 30 I usually have people start with, +2 for being 8th level).


Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 11-18-06 12:46 PM EDT (US)     16 / 1295  
I agree with you That One Elf. I like the way you set up ability scores, and I'm considering starting a small, short term, game at home that uses the same creation method. It seems fair to me. It allows you to optimize a character, without the need for sub abilities. Which, while I have read, it seems a bit too much. Looks like creation and combat will become a lot more complex.
posted 11-18-06 04:52 PM EDT (US)     17 / 1295  

Quoted from Accusync:

Hmmm........so..Beren are you wanting the other threads to start using these rules?

No, absolutely not, unless they want to themselves.

THe ability score rules blend seamlessly into existing rules, because a character with identical sub-abilities in each pair is so identical to existing rules that the new rules can simply be ignored. The hit point rules that I am proposing are different, but we're discussing them. I won't impose anything, even within this game, until we have settled on it. That's why they're "on the table".


Quoted from Accusync:

So i assume you intend to keep track of who(each pc player) is using which set of rules so you play the monster correctly,but i guess that would just be more work for the DM.

I don't expect that to be an issue. For instance, in this game, I invite players to introduce characters from other threads (the Giant Trilogy, the Secrets of Faerun, possibly even the Curse of Ylvar), and that some of your characters know each-other from participating in these threads. But the characters will be either directly imported (which will be easy), and probably be higher level than the other games. So the background of the characters will have overlap, plot elements will have overlap, but I don't expect combat to - and if it does, that's work for me, the GM, not for you.


Quoted from Accusync:

I would say to keep things on an even playing field you then will have to get rid of the "cross class" in the skills department,letting each player descide for himself what skills he wants to put his skill points on with no penalties.

I don't see why this is needed given what I have suggested. Can you explain?


Quoted from Lighthawk:

I really like the idea, it is much better than your earlier ideas Beren. It also would fit very well with the sub-abilities for constitution. I think I like the ideas of 2 (smaller) HD on each level (with some classes getting more or less vitality/extended wounds than others) better than the other ways to gain vitality and extended wound points. I also think that ruggedness should add to extended wounds and that health should add to vitality. I realize that characters would get more overall hp that way, but so would their opponents, so that is not really a problem.
I also suggest that any character that has lost all his vitality points should suffer the normal fatigue penalty (-2 str, -2 dex) until he regains some vitality points (by resting or by getting healed) Spells that remove fatigue (restoration spells) should also add some vitality points (an amount similar to a healing spell of the same level).
I also suggest that a character that takes core wound damage (and survives) become exhausted (move at half speed, -6 str, -6 dex)

Interesting suggestions, Lighthawk.

I also agree that, if we adopt this system, that characters and creatures should have more total hit points. Critical hits in particular will be deadly once you've run out of vitality, although they will be perhaps a little less menacing prior to running out of vitality. So I suppose that the first question is the extent to which classes differ in their die sizes, and who gets bigger dice. For example, the Barbarian has d12 hit dice. Does this mean that he should have d10 Extended Wounds and d8 Vitality, or smaller dice?

I also like your idea of characters who are fatigued, although I'm not sure how relevant exhaustion will be. Ordinarily, at least from what I am suggesting, a character who has taken Core Wound damage will be "dying" (or stablized) from having run out of extended wounds, and so will be unable to do anything.


Quoted from Lighthawk:

The expanded hit point rules are going to have a much lager effect on combat than the sub-abilities and will actually make combat more complicated (mostly critical hits)

Yes, true - this is a substantive rules change that would affect everybody, unlike the subabilities or the Great/High magic. We might not want to include it for this reason alone. Although, I agree: I do not understand the sudden wish by everybody to stick to the rules regardless of what they say (what if TSR had published slightly different rules?).


Quoted from Lighthawk:

(I think is should be called high magic rather than great magic)

The thought had crossed my mind. "True magic" had also crossed my mind. Is there any particular reason, or is it because you like the concept of Elven high magic being a subset of the greater type, and want to keep the names straight (which is a perfectly good reason!).


Quoted from that one elf:

Starting at 9th level is strange to me, because I've spent the last few years working my ranger character from 1st level to 9th, even if we don't play that often.

Heh, I know what you mean.

Here is one other suggestion: characters included from other roleplays (e.g. the Giant Trilogy) get a bonus level or bonus bunch of ability points or something like this, to represent the fact that we have played with them before.

So my suggestion might be this: level 5-6 with stellar abilities, level 7-8 with decent abilities, or level 9 with blah abilities. Although abilities that are too blah I can't see a level 9 character as having gotten to that point alive, particularly Insight and Perception (and also perhaps Magnetism) being too low.

What do the rest of you think about getting ability points, simple number of points, or a point-buy system? I'm flexible.


Quoted from that one elf:

How about this:
Each of the base 6 scores starts at 8 (with sub-abilities, each of the 12 would start with 8). You receive the following amount of ability points depending on your starting level (with sub-ability points in parentheses):
7th-level: 34 (68)
8th-level: 32 (64)
9th-level: 30 (60)

I don't think that a two-point difference ever equals a character level. Generally speaking, one character level roughly equates to a +1 increase in d20 rolls, so one would naively think that you would want 12 (24) points per level. Of course, this does not take into account the hit point adjustment, and saving throws, of which the former is not tied to level but is multiplied by it and the latter does not increase that fast, but two points is too few. I would suggest six or eight, at the rough level we are going to play.


-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 11-18-06 05:19 PM EDT (US)     18 / 1295  
So your looking at something like:
7th-level: 40 (80)
8th-level: 38 (76)
9th-level: 36 (72)
or
7th-level: 42 (84)
8th-level: 36 (72)
9th-level: 30 (60)

starting at 7th level with 42 ability points seems to be very high. I suppose it would equal out... A 9th level wiz/sorc would certainly have the ability to cast higher spells than a 7th level. I could see it being very equal there.... but for a fighter type??? I'm not too sure. Having the addition to strength could give you the +2 to attack that the higher level would, and it would also give you that to damage as well.

I REALLY want to get into another game, but I just don't know if I can play under these rules. Now that I've looked over it a couple of times, I could theoretically play as normal, with the exception that the HP would be different and that I'm still not sure I fully understand the Vitality thing. Although I agree with it. I never did understand how that orc with 1HP left was able to charge 60 feet and take a swing (hit or miss)

[This message has been edited by Trogg (edited 11-18-2006 @ 05:24 PM).]

posted 11-18-06 07:48 PM EDT (US)     19 / 1295  
That second array, Trogg, is interesting, but it does seem to be what Beren is hinting at. If that were to be chosen, I'd think it strange if anyone did not play a 7th-level character, though. That's a lot of ability points.

Eventually, we also need to talk about starting gold pieces, too....


Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 11-19-06 07:27 AM EDT (US)     20 / 1295  
theoretically a higher level char. would have more gold. right?

I couldn't see as starting with anything but a 7th level if you get that many ability points. Even a sorc or wiz with UBER ammounts of Cha or Int... Or a fighter with 26 strength without any additional modifiers???? WOO HOO.

I keep thinking of trying a new build. Something with a longbow.... build it up. Something like your ranger on our table top game That One Elf.... I think you are doing the most damage and have the best abilities. Ofcourse I was thinking 1 rogue/2 barbarian/4 fighter or ranger. I've also been looking at a paladin build, but I've never played one or been in a campaign that one was even played. SO, I really have very little idea on exactly HOW it should be played.

posted 11-19-06 08:49 AM EDT (US)     21 / 1295  
let me get this straight....

....you want to give LESS abillity points if we start at higher levels??(first of all i can't figure the reasoning of that one)

also...this thread will not only give more hit points per level but will give a character 'points' to put somewhere on their abillity scores as well?(at each level?)if so thats getting like the play station 2 game of "champions of Norrath"(i think thats how you spell Norrath?)

I think 6th level is a good place to start.....but i think it would be neat if we 'for just once' start our characters at 2nd or 3rd level that way we could basicly be from one town or hamlet in the hills or something like that and we would have grown up together and, a give everyone a "craft" (as a boni giving them 10 skill points[or more] to start with on their craft)to pick that they are really good at that they help/serve the community with


People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me
Into darkness, into night, amongst the shadows we shall fight!
-/X\( ++ ) /X\-L.E.D.- Hand of Malice-/X\( ++ ) /X\-

[This message has been edited by Accusync72 (edited 11-19-2006 @ 09:01 AM).]

posted 11-19-06 10:15 AM EDT (US)     22 / 1295  
DISCLAIMER
This is just my personal ideas, and they have not really been thought out. I mean absolutely no offence in this posting for whatever the DM is planning. These ideas have not been thoroughly thought out or tested in anyway.


I really like the craft and 10 extra skillpoints for that craft. I think it is a good idea, and would give us more ability to "build" characters.

The idea of having more ability points at a lower level is a little backwards. BUT, the thought of this is to effectively make the characters balanced. For example: A Drow has a +2 LA. A 7th Level Drow would be equal to a 9th Level human of the same class. Or a Half-Giant is a +1 LA. A half giant at level 8 would be equal to a human at level 9. If you want to have a drow character that starts out at 7th level for this campaign, he would really only be a 5th level, with the ECL (Effective Character Level) of 7th. The point here is effectively making a 7th level charcter as strong and balanced as a 9th level character.

I have a few ideas on how to do that, other than giving out bunches of ability points. For example, the gift of flying essentially enables a +1 level adjustment. SO, grant all characters that start at 7 or 8 the ability to fly (at will - same speed as walking), that would essentially give them +1 to there ECL... The other idea is to have them start out with an extra HD. We all start out with 1 HD, some creatures have more than that one, and each additional one directly effects ECL. So, if a 7th level character got the ability to fly and got one extra HD (same size as favored class) it would have an ECL of 9th level....

or you could just add a bunch of ability points.

Do I have that right? I think I do......

Then having everyone at the same ECL - we would all get the same ammount of starting gold, we would all gain XP at the same level, and we would be able to more easily integrate previous (or currently used at lower level) characters.

posted 11-19-06 01:26 PM EDT (US)     23 / 1295  
Trogg, your suggestion actually reminds me of Age of Wonders itself. Whenever a hero grows a level, you can either put it on his stats (attack, damage, defense, resistance, hit points and movement), or you can save up points to buy higher spellcasting, forms of movement, wall climbing, etc.

Eros Estot in the Giant Trilogy, the DM and Kaiden in Red Hand of Doom, and Seraph in Staff of the Emerald Enclave.

I'm happy to play any d20 game you can throw at me, and have tried most of them.
posted 11-19-06 01:40 PM EDT (US)     24 / 1295  
man!!.....guys in the book "Forgotten Realms campain setting" that picture of the female wild Elf, wow....Hey DM lets meet some of those females Veklars in love,if all the wild Elf females look that good,that could make you look fondly on them types REEEEEEEEEALLY fast.

I guess the problem would be to find one that accually likes humans alittle


People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me
Into darkness, into night, amongst the shadows we shall fight!
-/X\( ++ ) /X\-L.E.D.- Hand of Malice-/X\( ++ ) /X\-

[This message has been edited by Accusync72 (edited 11-19-2006 @ 01:46 PM).]

posted 11-19-06 01:50 PM EDT (US)     25 / 1295  
A human with all the charisma of a wild boar.... I highly doubt it, but I suppose anything is possible.
posted 11-19-06 05:30 PM EDT (US)     26 / 1295  
Remember though......one who is wise learns to get to know someone before they pass judgment on them.Even the ugliest person(in looks or in what they are thought to be because of their status in life)could be the most beautiful person to walk the face of the world. Someone that has no charisma,may be far more truthful and trustworthy, than one who might use his/her charisma for their own personal gain.Beware of the tongue whos' words are filled with honey that rolls off of it so freely.

People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me
Into darkness, into night, amongst the shadows we shall fight!
-/X\( ++ ) /X\-L.E.D.- Hand of Malice-/X\( ++ ) /X\-
posted 11-19-06 05:50 PM EDT (US)     27 / 1295  
From one raised to be a killer. Going on raids and having killed your share of elves.... hmm.. and a face only a mother (if she was a half orc) could love.... I just like to mess with you.
Anyway, are you going to bring Veklar into this??? If your in I might. But only if I get some help with the HP thing, I don't fully understand the vitality, core wounds thing.
posted 11-19-06 08:34 PM EDT (US)     28 / 1295  
I'll probably start a Half giant if it is allowed,I have an idea of taking 3 different classes like Lighthawk's character in the trilogy if it is allowed(but not the same 3 Kris' characters has).

and remember..just because Veklar has low charisma,doesn't mean he is ugly


People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me
Into darkness, into night, amongst the shadows we shall fight!
-/X\( ++ ) /X\-L.E.D.- Hand of Malice-/X\( ++ ) /X\-

[This message has been edited by Accusync72 (edited 11-19-2006 @ 08:34 PM).]

posted 11-20-06 06:09 AM EDT (US)     29 / 1295  
yeah yeah.... Hmm. Half giant??? I was actually thinking about pulling Audriel from our tabletop game. Although, I would, changed a few things, like the empower feat and the cat familiar. I would like to either take a raven, or if I can, an improved familiar, and go with something from that list...
I would like to use the familiar more often, but I'm not really sure how to pull him into the game. An OgreMage would be a good start too...
posted 11-20-06 09:21 PM EDT (US)     30 / 1295  
Okay, character generation: I added a section to that for "items on the table". I also put on the table some rules addenda that encourage multiclassing (these rules actually make 3.5 D&D simpler, not more complex!).


Now: do we agree upon the sub-abilities (those of us who intend to use them)?

Also, does anybody want to discuss ideas for rules for Great/High/True magic, or leave it as a plot device for now (i.e. Princess Aimienna and some other NPCs can use it, but the PCs can't)?

Last, who likes Lighthawk's suggestion of each class getting different vitality and extended wounds dice?

p.s. on ugliness/beauty, that's a subjective enough thing that I'm not sure using an ability score applies for it. If you want a mechanical rule for it, Charisma (Magnetism) would definitely influence, but so would Strength (especially Fitness), both sub-abilities of Dexterity, as well as Constitution (particularly Health). A great deal of what (most) humans consider attractive, for instance, are traits that influence their fertility... and if I were going to make a "check" for fertility, it would be modified by Constitution (Health), not Charisma (unless, of course, we are assuming a Divine element, in which case it could be Charisma, but the Potential side, not the Magnetism side).


-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
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