There have been 3 community map projects in the past, minimum.

I dont know if any have ever been finished, but with AOM EE and steam support I bet it would be easier. So yeah this is cool you should try to get something going!

Also here is a map concept I think would lend itself open to high customization and allowing everyone to add their own piece to the map!



This lets people create their own unique unit (we would need to agree on a level of balance for everyones units) that they use all game. Also lets them create their own build/fort with a unique spawning unit! (Illustrator by trade, always sketch my ideas out!)

[This message has been edited by trel (edited 04-16-2015 @ 10:35 PM).]

It sounds great!
I'd love to participate in the creation once I get all the skills required.
But I think we have to avoid a LoL-looking map (I don't say it's what you plan but I prefer to say it early enough). It is just my opinion, but it would be great to bring a new kind of cooperative game

The layout looks like a fantastic opportunity to do using a random map to randomly do the areas and buildings - just a shame very few people know how to RMS script.

I am interested in helping with this however I think this would be the 4th of these maps I have worked on and none of those ever became close to finished, so I would rather contribute later on in the map when it is closer is loser to being completed and I have more free time.

These are the 3 I have contributed towards in the past.
http://aom.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=13,29292,0,all - I helped Elrich with the organization.
http://aom.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=13,28962,0,all
http://aom.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=13,28897,0,all

[This message has been edited by scragins (edited 04-18-2015 @ 03:13 AM).]

The problem you guys ran into in all three of those is they are all so ambitious that it was likely they would fail or fall inactive. I feel like as long as the core idea of a map is known (kill the other teams shrine) than any add-ons to the game that a designer brings to it will be so much more magaeable than a gigantic rpg or endless minigame mega map.

In response to this game seeming LoL-esque, that is because the core idea is the same. I think that is what allows the most creative freedom for designers to come in and make a unique addition to the game.

I just want to make sure that enough people will want to contribute towards a map with that style of gameplay. If that is the case I would be happy to lay the groundwork for the map and add in the first two or three characters and structures. After that I would enjoy taking a role of an eyecandier while others added in fun stuff using triggers and eyecandy to their own ideas in the game!

WALL OF TEXT AHEAD

I think most of us are reluctant to participate in another community project because of what scragins said + the days of multiplayer scenarios are long gone (I wouldn't be surprised if there're only 30 people left who still regularly play these scenarios). However, with that being said, I would still like to see a community project succeed. But for it to succeed it would have to be small, novel and provide some sort of challenge (for the triggerers and eyecandy specialists among us).

I agree that RPG scenarios aren't the way to go because they tend to get too big and offer too much freedom to the designers to handle. Your scenario concept is small and challenging enough to be a community project, but it isn't novel enough IMO. There've been made quite a few similar scenarios in the past. This in itself isn't bad if the scenario will be done better than its counterparts, but the concept of capturing forts to unlock units/god powers to get an advantage over your opponent doesn't sound exciting enough. Sure, this is just a first basic concept that can be improved, but the core mechanic will still be "protect your shrine and destroy your opponent's", which is something that a lot of other multiplayer scenarios are also about (mythodea, castle blood, etc.). I've played that kind of scenarios too many times which is what also lowers my interest to design such a scenario. But again, this is just my personal opinion.

My idea
There's a scenario I've always wanted to make, but I never had the will to continue working on it after I realized how much time it would take me to design the whole map (map design isn't really something I enjoy doing). But that scenario could be a good candidate for a community project.

So this scenario is all about strategy. Every player owns a castle that exists of several rooms. A room is connected to one or more adjacent rooms. One room is a treasure room which will hold a treasure chest. The player has the choice in what room to put the treasure chest. The room which has the treasure chest automatically becomes the treasure room. The goal of the game is to gain the most points by:

1. Reaching the treasure chest if you're attacking someone else's castle;
2. Defeating your castle's attackers by laying down traps and positioning guards in every room.

The game consists of several rounds to play and each round consists of several phases.

Phase 1
Let's say a castle has a total of sixteen rooms. In the first phase of the first round, the player has to choose ~3 rooms he wants to defend. The first room has to be connected to the castle's entrance room and all of the rooms have to be connected to each other in some way (they have to be chained together).

Phase 2
If the rooms are selected, the second phase will start. The player can start purchasing guards and traps and place them in the castle and put the treasure chest somewhere in any of the unlocked rooms.

There's a limit on the amount of traps and guards you can place in your castle, for balancing reasons. It depends on the number of rooms how many traps and guards you can place. Each trap and guard has a Power value. The stronger the trap/guard, the higher the Power value. Each room in the castle will have a maximum Power cap. When a trap or guard is placed in a room, that room's Power level is increased. The room's Power level cannot exceed the room's maximum Power cap.
The players can also upgrade the traps and guards with special currency.

Phase 3
Once everyone is done with setting up the defence, the third phase will begin. This is when the players will improve their hero. They can use a special currency to increase the hero's stats, buy items or unlock/improve special abilities.

Phase 4
If everyone's done improving their hero, the fourth phase will start. The player with the lowest score may choose who he wants to attack. The player gains more points for defeating a player with a high score rather than a player with a lower score. This means the player with the lowest score always has the initiative to attack the player with the highest bounty, so he always has a chance to get back in the game.

Phase 5
Once everyone has chosen a target, the fifth phase shall commence. The players will execute their attack on their chosen castle *.

Phase 6
The sixth phase will start when:

1. Every player has died in the castle, or
2. Every player has reached the treasure chest in the castle, or
3. The countdown timer reaches 0 (to prevent endless rounds), or
4. A combination of 1 and 2.

The sixth phase shows a breakdown of the scores of every player. After the sixth phase, the next round will start and the six phases are executed again.

* There're some problems with this. If everyone executes their attack on their chosen castle at the same time, the defending player can't watch how the attack on his castle went. So he doesn't know where his defence needs some improvement. A possible solution is to let the first two players attack while the last two players view the attack on their castle. And after this the last two players attack while the first two players view the attack on their castle. Or perhaps you even want only one player to attack a castle at a time while everyone watches this attack. You may even decide to let the host choose how phase five goes by selecting one of these settings. Or maybe there's only one castle and players take turns setting up a defence and attack the castle one at a time or maybe even together... So there're still some decisions to be made.

---

This isn't everything, but I'll leave it at this before this post gets way too big. I think this is more than adequate information about the core mechanics of the game. I think this scenario offers a lot of freedom and challenge to both the designers and triggerers and it's something I've never seen before. But then again, this is just my opinion.

I'd love to try out Lewonas's idea. He told me about it a while ago and I got really excited about it.

Though, I thought that instead of having predetermined rooms, the players would start out with a massive square grid filled with wall connectors, and they could carve out their own dungeon as they saw fit by deleting wall connectors. To make sure that they didn't cheat and make impossible dungeons, each player's hero would start out inside their treasure room, and in order to begin, they must carve a path for their hero out of the square and into the central area where phase 3 and phase 4 would be.

I actually thought about making a tower defense where you can build walls and to make sure you don't block the route you just send a unit through at the beginning of the wave that has all walls around it disappear using change or damage units in area.

@Zenophobia: Its nice I made a bomberman type map using that type of wall connector grid. Watch you don't have he rooms too large as the number of wall connectors quickly adds up.

Doing the gird itself easiest way I found was to place berry bushes and use transform in editor.

It would not be that difficult to place a large number of wall connectors using triggers, all you would need is 2 for or while loops with army deploy at QV location. I have already made a trigger that randomly places units over the map and it can cover a 200 by 200 map.

Edit: Deleting them in game would still be problem though.

[This message has been edited by scragins (edited 04-22-2015 @ 08:03 AM).]

I think Lewonas for sure has an interesting idea that would definitely be an opportunity for some unique trigger work! I think from an eye candy perspective have cliff raised elevation made for the castle grids, leaving entrances to each grid blocked with walls that the player can then make and modify. To solve some problems you brought up, either have everyone watch each persons attack on a castle, or have two teams with multiple players on each team. This lets the defending team use interactive traps etc. while the attacking team moves through the castle. Then maybe have a bunch of different castle grids around the map that the defending team can choose to use as their castle for that round. This lets eye candy people make unique castle layouts with choke points and different hazards etc. while giving attackers a new challenge each time, in addition to whatever units and traps are laid down.

This talk of grids, digging out and traps sounds like making an AOM dungeon keeper.

@scragins: A simple change in area should do the job? Or just let people delete them.

[This message has been edited by nottud (edited 04-23-2015 @ 07:33 AM).]

lol in any case, this will be too complicated for ESO plebs to understand

so add more instructions. If you have a truly good idea (and it looks like you do) don't let the stupidity, (or at least perceived stupidity) of the player base stop you.

[This message has been edited by pBiggz (edited 04-23-2015 @ 12:11 PM).]

All of you seem to like the scenario concept as much as I do. I first planned on asking Zeno to create this scenario with me at some point (we still want to create something together), but when I saw this thread I figured it could potentially be a great community project (and then there's the fact we would still need a good designer who would do the map design for us lol). Not that any of this matters, so eh, anyway... about the scenario...

I agree that carving out your own castle would be supa amazing, but it isn't very practical for this kind of scenario because some traps and guards require some kind of specific area lay-out for them to work properly. And you would end up with some derpy looking castle that exists entirely of wall connectors. But it's a cool idea nonetheless.

So yes, customization is a tricky part. If everyone would have the same set of rooms then the castles would become less challenging over time because you'll get used to the different kind of viable strategies used in these rooms. What Trel suggested about having a bunch of different castles grids on the map which players can choose to build their next defence in would indeed create some variety for both the defenders and attackers alike. However, I think this could cause another problem if one castle were to be better than the others (in other words: it would be very difficult to design equally strong castles with different lay-outs). So, one player would get an unfair advantage over the others if he would choose the best castle.

There’s a solution I’ve come up with to solve customization issue (similar to Zeno’s idea). I still think there should be identical predetermined rooms in every player's castle so that everyone starts off at an equal footing (and so that the castle at least looks like.. you know... a proper castle and not like a chaotic mess of wall connectors that would suggest an earthquake just took down the castle and all that remains are the ruins). But here's the twist, each room should have some destructible walls which the player can choose to destruct to create the pathways. So, in a way, you're still carving out your castle (the pathways to be exact), but in a lesser extent. And yes, this also means the castle needs to be validated.

To solve some problems you brought up, either have everyone watch each persons attack on a castle, or have two teams with multiple players on each team. This lets the defending team use interactive traps etc. while the attacking team moves through the castle.

Either way could work. The team idea sounds interesting though.

What do you mean with interactive traps? Do you mean the defending players can put traps in the castle during the attack? I don’t really like that idea because traps are very powerful. I think it would be fine if the defending players can summon guards in the castle during the attack to create great ambush situations. But this would need to be balanced, like you should only be able to summon guards outside of the attackers’ LOS.

If you were to go for the team approach, I guess the teams consist of two players and they take turns setting up the defence and being the ‘dungeon master’. The player being the ‘dungeon master’ can summon the guards during the attack phase. So when the player who’s setting up the defence is setting up the defence in Phase 2, the other player would purchase a limited amount of guards which he can summon during the attack phase. Maybe he can even buy some god powers or other interactive stuff. It sounds like an interesting idea. This ‘dungeon master’ idea could also work without the teams.

I agree that carving out your own castle would be supa amazing, but it isn't very practical for this kind of scenario because some traps and guards require some kind of specific area lay-out for them to work properly. And you would end up with some derpy looking castle that exists entirely of wall connectors. But it's a cool idea nonetheless.

oh, what kind of trap and guard system do you have in mind? I originally thought that each player would have an atlantean villie that built towers and mirror towers. In a separate area of the map, players would choose what unit the built tower would turn into, and that unit would also change the cost of towers to match. Normal towers would turn into guards while mirror towers would turn into traps. Then maybe we can also add bossfights using a palace, which requires a larger amount of space to be built.

You're correct. You place units and traps by building a specific building instantly with a villager. The stronger the trap/guard, the more space it requires, the larger the building would be to place down the trap/guard. (I'm not sure if this will also flatten the terrain and change the terrain to city tiles because you build a building (although it will be built and transformed instantly). If it does, then another way must be found.)

What I meant with "some traps and guards require some kind of specific area lay-out for them to work properly" is that some very powerful traps and guards require an additional "power source". For instance, if you want to place down a top-tier guard like a Fire Giant, you would have to put him in a room with Lava or some other room with a strong heat source. And then there could be a very powerful trap like the "Carnivoria" (that flesh-eating plant god power thingy) that tries to lure the attacker towards it to consume him (insta-kill). This trap needs to be placed in a room with vegatation and water (like a indoor/outdoor botanic garden).

This might make the trap/guard system too complex. So I'm not sure if this is something you would want to implement. But I think it's a nice addition though.

[This message has been edited by Lewonas (edited 04-25-2015 @ 08:28 AM).]

True, having predetermined rooms could create some interesting interactions. I guess I'm more interested in the layout features, though.

I'd like to hear other people's input on this as well.

So I am going to use this post to first respond with my ideas/solutions to some stuff yall have posted as well as outline the overall idea I think this map has developed to in my mind.

However, I think this could cause another problem if one castle were to be better than the others (in other words: it would be very difficult to design equally strong castles with different lay-outs). So, one player would get an unfair advantage over the others if he would choose the best castle.

The idea behind having multiple castles is that there can be unique features (choke point rooms, water causeways, dimly lit rooms, natural traps/features, snowy/desert/forest scenery, etc.) and that these features influence the way the castle traps are laid out by the defenders and also influences the picks of abilities/heroes of the attacking team. Will they not be perfectly balanced? Of course, which is why I think forcing defenders to switch their castle every time is a must. Make each castle a one time only pick, and with multiple rounds and a bunch of castles to pick, this adds replayability, fun, eyecandy and triggering opportunities.

And you would end up with some derpy looking castle that exists entirely of wall connectors.

I propose the solution to this being there are still rooms that you can carve a path out of, but the walls are made of raised up cliffs/unpassable terrain. This lets you make rooms that are varied in size and lets the eycandier/castle creator to put in cool features and basically beautify these castles/dungeons. Trust me that with this idea these castles will look badass. I drew a quick illustration to show yall what I mean.

What do you mean with interactive traps? Do you mean the defending players can put traps in the castle during the attack?

What I meant by interactive traps is giving the defneders options for traps that cost the same amount of gold as a building trap, but give the defender the option to use the trap while the attackers are attacking, rather than just idley sitting and watching.

Just thinking of examples on the fly but this could be a simple godpower like bronze or restoration for their defenders in a certain area, spawning a defending unit with lure, etc. Just something that the defender can activiate at key times to make the attackers lives a little rougher.

lol in any case, this will be too complicated for ESO plebs to understand

The whole reason actually that I wanted to make a map with the community is that community members would be interested in playing it. I say forget the ESO plebs, we have enough playerbase right here in the community! If this scenario comes out as awesome as it can and will be, the replay value will be huge. The team aspect and community environment will make this a super fun forum party/just fun game to play with the people of aomh in my opinion.

Would it be cool to make a game that is fun to host on ESO? Sure, but as pBiggz said, that limits the amount of fun, ingenuity, tactics, abilities, etc, etc, etc, that can be pumped into this scenario.

--

Ok, now that I have responded to a few things with my ideas, here is what I have envisioned for this scenario going forward, looking for any input and critique with other ideas of course.

4 players, two teams of 2.

- The idea behind the team aspect is that it is fun to play solo, but collaborating an attack with a tandem of heroes that compliment eachother, or defending laying out unique traps with your partner seems like a much more fun experience.

7 rounds, the first team to successfully take the chest/kill the attackers 4 times is the winner.

- By having a round system different castles are used by each team every round, letting many different areas, traps, and unique heroes be used. The defenders would lay out their traps (I like the idea of a villi placing down traps as well), then when they are finished, the attackers select their heroes and abilities. (Hero Build Fighters style perhaps? This is not my area of expertise regarding the triggering of unique abilities.)

So yeah, think I have hit all the stuff I wanted to talk about. The details on # of traps you can lay down in total and in certain rooms, the amount of castles there should be, and power, abilities, and # of heroes in the game are all things we would need to discuss. Interested to see what you guys think about this!

EDIT: Adding on to that last point, here are just some hero ideas, some that I couldn't trigger myself or would need help to create the effects and triggering, just brain storming:

Warrior: Does more damage every time he hits, which resets when he hasn't been in combat for a short period of time. Resilient and has skills based on the amount of damage he has taken.

Monk: Can quickly regenerate his ally with healing. Has aoe damage protecting and smiting spells. (I could make this one.)

Shaman: Provides helpful damage/healing wards, aoe poison degeneration to enemies and aoe buffs (armor, speed, etc.) to his ally.

Disruptor: A quick hero that can disable traps and stun enemies.

Just some ideas!

[This message has been edited by trel (edited 04-27-2015 @ 10:29 PM).]

Just FYI, I haven't had the time yet to write a proper reply to your post. Expect a reply from me on Sunday.

So ayyyy watup!

Yeah... this was another case of 'bad timing' on my part. The period from May until July is always very busy for me (so in hindsight, it wasn't the smartest idea for me to meddle in this discussion at that time). That period has just ended so I have some free time now. I'd hoped you would continue the discussion without me, but it looks like the discussion completely died. That may already be a sign that this kind of scenario wouldn't be a great idea for a community project. Correct me if I'm wrong.

So I've seen that Tasterix started his own 'community project'. Maybe that's something to focus on right now?