I haven't even gotten around to really getting into AoG2 like I've wanted to so I don't know about finding more testing time.

But it seems to me NA2 and dwiggs are very different to the point of incompatability. Dwiggs makes every unit valuable. Low units keep their value even latter on when level 4's appear. This is a defining aspect of dwiggs. If it doesn't have this its not reasonable to call it a dwiggs cross.

NA2 is all about building the highest end units as fast as you can. Low end units are just what you build when you don't have time to make level 4+ units and are often dismissed when they've no longer immediately needed. Even with NA2's medal bonuses.

Also races have more unique feel because each race has something its good at and something it lacks. NA2 has lots of units to the point where any particular race is bound to to have a unit that fits any particular role.

Both mods have good points to them. But they seem very different to me.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 04-08-2007 @ 04:52 AM).]

Thanks very much for giving them a negative opinion without actually having even tried the mod in question, I'm sure they really value that!

I have tried the mod in single player, but would not really want to try it online as long as it is possible to be given lvl 4 units (such as an air galley) from an easy spirit quest. That could make for a very imbalanced game, and has done in some of my SP games...

My ideal mod has a very easy installation path, so does not require me to download from more than one place, and I just click on the installer for it to do all the work for me (or maybe two files in the same single download, one to be installed into /user/resources/ and one into /images/, for example). It would also have install/uninstall batch files, for easy changing from one mod to another, such as those provided with BNW and Glorantha. It would have documentation listing all unit stats and other gameplay rule changes. That is not currently the situation with this mod, so hopefully those areas will be addressed

Also saying that the mod needs Upatch 1.4, Dwiggs 1.4_Patch, and New Arsenal 2 installed could be somewhat daunting to people that are not very experienced in patching/modding the game, as the two mods mentioned do not have straightforward installation routes themselves

So this mod is very much a beta, and will still need a lot more work, but what I have seen so far seems to be very promising. Good luck!

Roger writes:

as long as it is possible to be given lvl 4 units (such as an air galley) from an easy spirit quest.

If it´s in easy quest, that might be too much. Though, when all units are much stronger than normally, air galleys make less difference and there are transport 7 (mp 32?) machines on every race.

@TruePurple

It is true that Dwiggs and NA2 are very different, and that was maybe the main reason i tought of combining these mods; they reinforce each other. Nothing is incompatible, if you know what parts to use and what not.. Big differences means bit more work though..

As for all races having unit that fill a particular role.. It's true that most races have more different "types" of units than in Dwiggs for example, all races have scout, healer, transport, shooters and some melee units at least.. But the quality of these units vary greatly. While some race might have a 36mp scout which can hide in bushes, some other has flying scout with 44mp and vision3 (costs six times more though).. Some races have healers that cost 150, while archons for example has wide variety of healers, weakest costing only 40 gold (buildable from outpost).

But i dont agree all races having units which fits every role.. This mod uses the unit abilities in a quite versatile way.. To the point that i dare to claim most units in the game are fairly Unique. Despite the number of units..

If you find particular units that bothers you, or clearly dont fit the race, we can discuss it, and better yet to have an replacement idea.. (Im afraid Temple Virgin and Messiah stays for now )

@Roger

Good points.. Maybe made those spirit rewards bit too heavy, wasnt sure where the boundaries between different quest "levels" were.. Alltough Munatar is quite correct there also.

I'll also make better installer soon (with all the stuff in it, will be quite big download though..).

If your going to call it a dwiggs cross, will you stay faithful to the dwiggs concept of making low level units valuable for combat etc, even when theres level 4's and such?

As I said, if its going to be called a dwiggs cross it really should have this.

they reinforce each other

Most likely cancel each other out in spots with things that are opposite, where its either one or the other.

Like either specific focuses, Strengths and lackings in each race & unit or drowning each race with lots of units across the spectrum of use and each unit having tons of abilities.

Either low level units remain valuable even latter game for a many varied strategy. Or its a rush to the level 4+ units.

What of slower city growth & development tied to city size? Race city production being large in its variation between races? What of growth costing gold?

What do you plan to use from dwiggs besides heroes & graphics & maybe structures producing resources?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 04-09-2007 @ 02:32 AM).]

Maybe if you actually tried playing the mod, instead of coming up with a load of theoretical problems, you would be in a better position to judge?

The mod is out there, it has been made, and what these guys are looking for is constructive suggestions (by people that have actually played the mod) on how it can be improved

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 04-09-2007 @ 09:22 AM).]

Roger, please keep it friendly (re- previous edited message).

TP, do go easy with questions, suggestions, and criticism, as you can see, there is a limit that people can handle that might not be yours.

[This message has been edited by swolte (edited 04-10-2007 @ 03:28 PM).]

What comes to MoM spheres, summons can be altered nice and easy, if some1 finds/make IBLs to them Attack-, overland spells or buffs are harder to change, if there is a need. Figured out one unrealistic list for summons

Nature:
1st lvl summon: War Bear
2nd lvl summon: Sprite (flying magic bolter?)
3rd lvl summon: Basilisk/Earth Elemental?(Same ILBs)
4th lvl summon: Great Wyrm (phase, high speed)

Sorcery:
1st lvl summon: Phantom Warrior
2nd lvl summon: Air Elemental (lower stats)
3rd lvl summon: Storm Giant (hurl lightning?)
4th lvl summon: Sky Drake

Chaos:
1st lvl summon: Hell Hound
2nd lvl summon: Fire Giant/Efreet?
3rd lvl summon: Chaos Lord (lower stats)
4th lvl summon: Great Drake

Life:
1st lvl summon: Guardian Spirit
2nd lvl summon: Unicorn
4th lvl summon: Arch Angel (HoMM3)

Death:
1st lvl summon: Ghoul/Black spider?
3rd lvl summon: Bonedragon/Demon (dwiggs red demon ILBs?)
4th lvl summon: Arch Devil (HoMM3)

Ether:
1st lvl summon: Magic Servant
2nd lvl summon: Recolored & named Chaos Spawn?
3rd lvl summon: Storm elemental
4th lvl summon: Floating Island? (transport 7)

LvLs mean spell lvl of summon spells, units could be higher lvl than normally. Sky Drake, Great Wyrm & Drake, Arch Angel & Devil, Floating Island could be 5th or 6th lvl units with higher casting cost.

[This message has been edited by Munataros (edited 04-09-2007 @ 01:21 PM).]

When/if I get the time I will be happy in assiting with developing this mod.

Comments after 2 test games (there's a LOT more to test!):
Poison domain should be level 4, not level 3; making it level 3 makes earth sphere far, far too strong IMO (weren't we discussing it was too strong even with poison domain at level 4?!). It also means you can get poison domain with 3 earth spheres, as Muna did in the latest game. That is unbalanced.
I think the draconian fire incarnates are probably too strong - but would need to test them against other level 4 units; I'm specifically thinking of their resurgence; an army of those will be rather hard to kill.

Griff, you need to type and publish a list of the quest rewards for the different shrines too.

War shrine: I think the penalties for war shrine are too strong, either remove the production penalty or the growth gold penalty IMO.

I enjoy the mod though, very good job, Griff

[This message has been edited by Gandalf_DK (edited 04-09-2007 @ 07:29 PM).]

Griff can do what he wants of course, but to fairly call it dwiggs cross it should have significant dwiggs qualities.

If its going to be mostly just a NA2 mod with dwiggs heroes. Thats fine just please don't call it a dwiggs cross please.

Especially if gandalf is going to help you make it. He favors fast city growth and other undwigg like concepts.

Regardless & to your "concern" roger,
I don't need to test a mod to know that I'd rather have a mod that calls itself a dwiggs cross have dwiggs qualities.

A concern of mine is that it might lead people to think your building an improved dwiggs and lead people away from trying dwiggs. Especially if hes going to say things like "epic combo". Which is ok if it has dwiggs qualities. But tough to do with NA2 being so different. Yes I know it requires dwiggs install. That doesn't nullify my concern.

Its like rogers post suggesting a "online dwiggs" like you can't already play dwiggs online for a good game.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 04-10-2007 @ 03:00 AM).]

TP writes:

Roger, enough with the lambasting me in just about every second thread. Its tiring and pointless. The only thing it serves to do is to annoy, if thats your idea then its the very definition of trolling.

Just in case it wasn't clear, these types of 'replies' after a moderator notice on the same topic are unproductive and off-topic. They are only dragging negative issues deeper.

I am now making it very clear that there will be no b*llsh*t (for lack of better word ) coming from perfectly fine threads that I don't intend to close. Stick to the topic, plz. Consider this a notice and remember it for the future.

Any reply to the above issue will result in an official warning. Feel free to email/msn me with questions.

~ Your Seraph

[This message has been edited by swolte (edited 04-09-2007 @ 10:46 PM).]

Critisism is way to go after TP and Roger 1st test the mod, more than one time.

IC many features which are in dwiggs, structures produse some gold and growt, there´s 50 gold marketplace, and bout 50 units from dwiggs + all heroes, with bit altered stats. Heroes could bit stronger still though, last game they died easy in QC. Ettins were too strong too, when they are fast to build in racial structures. Spirit rewards might need a look. Draconian incarnates could have -1 mark, now they didn´t bomb themselfes in QC though.

What comes to poison domain, I think it´s less good than Earth Aweraness. Depends on situation though. How bout move golden age 3rd lvl, poison domain and EA 4th lvl?

[This message has been edited by Munataros (edited 04-10-2007 @ 10:35 AM).]

Hehe, I love this thread. I was about to write this earlier, but here goes:
TP, since you haven't patented the word ”dwiggs” or done any active work in developing the mod, you have no say whatsoever with regards to how other people use the mod, parts or it or the expression itself. Griff and I have been trying to work together on developing the NA2 mod for a while, but I haven't had the time to be really helpful, and now I see to my delight that he's done a great job on merging NA2 with dwiggs units. Initially he wanted to take all discussions about this mod to a forum, where HE would have moderator rights (I wonder if you can guess why?), but I see that after all, he ended up putting it here, which is good, since more players come and post here.
The downside, of course, is that Griff or I can't kick unwanted contributors out, but be that as it may, I will try to be a bit constructive:
If you DO want to have a say reg. This CoMA mod, TP, I suggest you playtest it first, and then limit your comments to concrete and workable suggestions for improving it, which is pretty much all that the modders will be interested in. All else will be happily ignored, and with your record you might even have to post a lot of good ideas before people will be willing to listen to you, given that previous experience suggest you'll continue in the same track of senseless complaints.

To the mod:
For earth sphere I suggest earth's awareness at level 3, golden age at level 4 and poison domain at level 4 (as in MP mod, old 1.3 and upatch), combined with a weakening in some spot of the earth sphere (for instance stone skin at +2 def +1 res) OR removing poison domain from earth sphere.
Golden age as a level 3 spell means you can get it with 3 earth spheres too, and I think that would make earth too strong.

Shrine rewards:
I still hope for a list of the shrine rewards, but I wonder if you can customize items for quest rewards too? I have some good suggestions here, but maybe we can get together and make a list of the shrine rewards and maybe change a few things, Griff?

moderator notice writes:

Any reply to the above issue will result in an official warning.

Ok, official warning for Gandalf_DK and Munataros. I made it clear that the issue with TP was a no-go! Email will follow. (re-previous edited messages)

Consider yourselves banned next time. Enough of people not listening to moderator notices and wanting to have 'their own off-topic last word' -say.

[This message has been edited by swolte (edited 04-10-2007 @ 03:30 PM).]

Stoneskin to +2 def and +1 res and back to 1st lvl migth balance better the earth sphere, if EA stays 3rd lvl imo too.

[This message has been edited by Munataros (edited 04-10-2007 @ 10:30 AM).]

I like the Stone Skin suggestion, and also wondered if maybe Golden Age could be moved to another sphere, as it doesn't necessarily fit the nature theme too well?

I am continuing playtesting, and find some overly strong units coming out of recruitment structures and dungeons. My main concern is that sometimes the low level units become fairly irrelevant once one of these uber-units appear

This is cool realy epic mod. You can get a lot of decent stuff there. Units, heroes etc. About gameplay, it is not for anything reminds dwiggs. It is new arsenal with imporvements with some units from dwiggs mod. I can clearly state it cause had played a lot dwiggs, and new arsenal games. If name "dwiggs" will be some kind of marketing symbol, it will be prohibited to use it at this mod. Ask every pure dwigger, he will confirm it.

By the way, TirAsleen is invited to test the mod.

Suggestion for quest rewards:

Nature
4 lower level spells:
Rejuvenate
Healing
Tremors
Call of the forest
Level 4 spell: Spring Rains
Level 2 summon: Dire penguin
Level 3 summon: Earth Elemental
Level 4 summon: Basilisk
Item: Path of life ring + a little more

Magic
4 lower level spells:
Banish summoned
Summoner's aura
Alter node
Double gravity
Level 4 spell: Resurgence / earth's awareness
Item: Casting specialist hat
Level 2 summon: Chaos Spawn
Level 3 summon: Air elemental
Level 4 summon:Chaos Lord

War
4 lower level spells:
Fury
Blinding flash
Fireball
Crash gates
Level 4 spell: Lightning storm or damnation (level 3, but just as good)
Level 2 summon: Efreet
Level 3 summon: Fire elemental
Level 4 summon: Black dragon
Item: double strike + life stealing +1 att +1 dam death strike sword

Order:
4 lower level spells:
High prayer
Sacred wrath
Regenerate walls
Healing
Level 2 summon: Minotaur
Level 3 summon: Water elemental
Level 4 summon: Gold Dragon
Item: Resurrect + healing item
Level 4 spell: Golden Age

This makes for 9 rewards for each spirit, but to this should be added UNITS as possible rewards. I don't have the editor right here, so I can't see how you specify whether you want the reward to be a spell or a unit, but how do people feel about the above suggestions? On top of these, I think more items should be available as rewards, this will tie in with more powerful heroes.

Griffith, why do you wish to change the names (and possibly functions) of the magic spheres?
I mean, I have the impression you can't change the function of the spells anyways (hard coded), so why change the names?

The name of the mod - shouldn't we just call it "Epic mod" as discussed??

[This message has been edited by Gandalf_DK (edited 04-10-2007 @ 12:35 PM).]

Thx for all replies..

@TruePurple
Perhaps your right, I cant claim the mod has equally much things from Dwiggs as from NA2.. But it has many things from Dwiggs regardless (crucial parts).. But Dwiggs keeps its own identity, and this mod aims for its own.

As to what else I plan to use from Dwiggs.. You guys are welcome to give a say here.. Im planning on changing the wizards to Dwiggs wizards maybe and using some of its spell ideas. Also Dwiggs overmap structures look nice..

Btw, found the ILB for your "bone cage" idea, what stats / abilities were you planning for it again? (cant find your suggestion) If its good, I could put it available somewhere.

@Munataros
Cool list.. Could use many of those units, you can make some of those units in the editor and send them over, if you like to direct them in the way of stats etc (many of those have appropriate graphics available also)..

@Gandalf
Many practical suggestions here.. Poison domain is pretty powerfull so maybe lvl 4 is better place for it. Fire incarnates are otherwise powerfull, but they cant resurrect after self destruct, so they have this weakness.. Is the price too low?

If you, Munatar and Roger think Stoneskin should have 2def and 1res, then i guess its for the best.. Ok, lets try putting Earth Awareness to level 3 and Poison Domain and Golden Age lvl 4.. (alltough we could vote for that?)

Good list for quest rewards, we can use that.. Alltough if we change the summons, we might need to rethink that part a bit.. But we can try your version 1st.

I tought of new spheres because it would be something cool that i wanted to make.. Changing what spells are available and to what sphere, removing EW for example from Cosmos and putting it to some of the new spheres.. Giving more enchantments to each spheres, but making them require higher levels.. All-new summons, etc. But i realize its a big leap and sphere balancing would be difficult, as would be for people to adjust to new spheres.. It'd create new feel to the game though, i believe, if we want more of that sometime. And we could keep another version with the old spheres.

Also we could add the Rocks-off thing..

About the name, i though "Epic mod" just sounds bit plain.. So i tried to think something clever.. not sure how succeedingly .. Anyways we can vote for the name

The connection in my new apartment hasnt been stable, so sorry for the games I`ve dropped off because of that..

P.S. I created new forum for voting for things (can help to decide certain things, unfortunately HG doesnt support polls). Lets see if that can be of any use: http://epicmod.6.forumer.com/viewforum.php?f=2

[This message has been edited by Griffith (edited 04-10-2007 @ 05:08 PM).]

I think that whole thing with stoneskin is kinda silly. 3 def is fine, 2 def 1 resis isn't bad either but 3 def separates it more from bless.

Poison domain is a very powerful spell, how powerful depends on how many units have special strikes & abilities or poison immunity, but definitely a level 4 spell.

I'll look for the bone cage details latter. But its like 5 or so pages or something from the end of the unit idea thread I think.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 04-10-2007 @ 09:06 PM).]

Other solution is to add more poison imm to high lvl units and keep poison domain on 3rd lvl. +3 def stoneskin is an abuse, like I said once

Bugs in the CoMA mod that need to be corrected:

Draconian hydras are listed with spread attack in ability list, but spread attack works as round attack.
Update: Well, after I installed all the dwiggs files, it now works as it should (as spread attack), so I don't know if the previous problem was due to missing dwiggs files or what - but regardless; it works!

I'll update the list if I find more bugs.

CoMA mod is just fine as name, don't think there's any need for a vote on it!

I'd be happy to make a rocks off version of CoMA, but let's wait until more bugs have been corrected.

[This message has been edited by Gandalf_DK (edited 04-14-2007 @ 03:43 PM).]

Theres new version out of the CoMA mod at http://aow2.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=805

Theres many new changes, id add screenshot of the new summons here, but for some reason it dont work.. But heres a link: http://server4.pictiger.com/img/1070344/computer-games-and-screenshots/some-of-the-new-summons-and-some-new-units-of-coma-mod.php

If any1 finds any other / new bugs, please post here.

Griff a forumer is having a problem with CoMA and we haven't been able to help him, perhaps you could help please?

Quoted from Ameph:

(I have installed) The Dwiggs patch as well as the CoMA.

I have them all in the proper place but Water Elemental, Guardian Spirit, Flame Spirit and Dragor do not show up.

The game shuts off if I start combat in a city as well.

For the first part, there was a ilbs pack missing in the 3-in-1 pack unfortunately, you can get it at:
http://www.mediafire.com/?bz2ttbyu1nz

About the game crashing in city combat, im not sure if i can help you. I havent encountered similar problems, but i guess its possible that some of the masked abilities might be causing problems, im planning on removing some of the maskings from future version.

Oddly enough, Dragor decided to show up.

However, no luck with the Flame Spirit. Kinda aggrivating and awkward to have nothing shoot flames.

I know I'm a few years late but I'd just like to say how much I love this mod Griffith. Thanks for putting it together.