I'll be up for helping run the map design side of the scenario with another volunteer or two.

I'm up for running the map design with you, Possidon. As for credentials, the screenshots from the project thread in my signature are a good representation of the map design quality I'll do my best to consistently offer

As for the names, I'll see what I can come up with. The style of the names you've chosen thus far seem to be Nordic/Anglo-Saxon, so I'll try to stick to that.

I might suggest anyone with a 4+ scenario on the blacksmith be accepted

Damn it, 3.2 is my high. I Guess I will have to send you some screenshots.

A question though, why restrict it to just one map instead of several? (i.e. each map could be a small part of the real map)
Also have you made the map yourself?

[This message has been edited by Lildbehr (edited 03-15-2015 @ 03:00 PM).]

Sam sounds good. I think we'll work well together organising the map design.

Yeah, this is setting out to be pretty similar to what I had in mind, and something great might come of it

I'm really interested in helping out with the story and the general outline of the project for now. Not sure if I'll have time for anything else.

A question though, why restrict it to just one map instead of several? (i.e. each map could be a small part of the real map)

I think one scenario of this sort is already a pretty ambitious undertaking, but if it proves successful there will most certainly be sequels to look forward to.

I may be able to help here and there. I'll definetily keep an eye on the thread.

@Possidon: Agreed!

@Panel: Glad to see you on board too - storywriters of your caliber are hard to come by!

I'm rather excited for this in general, as I see a ton of potential in it

[This message has been edited by HockeySam18 (edited 03-15-2015 @ 03:39 PM).]

Its reminding me of the Tales of AOKH project that a couple of us new designers started back in 2010. we were all noobies back then and it never got finished

Definitely, and the very methodical approach that this one is taking makes me rather confident that we'll have a nice result.

It's great when the people you hope for volunteer for the position you think they should.

Hockeysam and Possidon will run the map together. This hopefully will give us a nice dual perspective, and insulate us a bit from the inevitable real life disappearances we all go through. The two of you should come up with a system you think is fair for controlling additions to the map.

panel, I'm adding you to the story team. I am also going to press gang Lord Basse into this service unless he explicitly refuses.

And yes, I created the base map. It's base is a giant map (240 by 240). Most of it can be adjusted by the designers, but I want to keep the shore lines consistent, the area of the primary forest and mountain lands intact, and to save the dirt area to the west for the end. I also added basic locations for the crossings across the river. Also, the mountains include some elevation 10, so adjust the elevations with map copy in some areas. Other than that it's all pretty much blank.

I accept the position! I've already started to think up ideas for the story, so there's no way back anyway.

So far I just have one thought: shouldn't the Fingers be called something else? As I recall, there is already such a place in A Song of Ice and Fire.

As I recall, there is already such a place in A Song of Ice and Fire.

This is true

I wish i help you but im bad scenario maker but gl

Eh, The Fingers is generic enough that it shouldn't matter that it's a place name in ASoIaF. We can change it if we want to, but I don't think that we absolutely need to.

As far as helping out, though, count me in. I can work with the story team, have substantial experience with data editing, and might even be able to help with graphics by making a few new units.

In addition, I do have a comprehensive graphics folder with almost all of the good and middling quality units (mostly from the Blacksmith) sorted by the type of unit (infantry or cavalry, type of weapon, etc). If you need a generic unit graphic for a character, I can give you a list (with pictures) of units that could fit the bill. (I also have some 20 or so building sets above and beyond the base game or the Forgotten expansion in the folder, collected from various sources, so if you want buildings, I can send those your way too.)

Just a thought for the story team - would it be more efficient to use a Google Doc to collaborate in instead of an e-mail conversation? I've used that method for several collaborative writing projects in the past, and it has worked out very well there. Like I said, just a suggestion, though. If you're interested, I can set one up.

As far as modding goes - are we interested in significant data editing, or are we going to restrict this to mostly just graphics mods. I'm not going to push for either way, as I think both have a lot to offer, but it would likely be a good idea to have that clearly defined soon, so that any modders know the parameters we are working under.



This should probably be the part where I apologize for a wall of text:

To help the design team, we also ought to start a little bit of worldbuilding so that the designers and modders/graphic providers know what to start looking for (although more needs will almost certainly come out as we get further, getting initial directions will be a great help).

To that end - some questions for discussion (questions in bold, commentary in plain text):

What kind of cultures do we have in our known world, and what is their relationship with historical Earth cultures?

(They could be identical to an Earth culture, similar but not identical to a culture, inspired by but significantly divergent from the culture, or completely new and unrelated to any Earth culture. This list is ranked by the amount of work that each culture would take. My advice is to pick either of the middle two options - cultures exactly the same as Earth's is rather cliche in a fantasy world, but cultures completely unrelated is way too much work for an AoK project. In addition, it may not even be possible to adequately represent an alien culture in the game.)

In a related vein - What kind of scale are we working on - is our space small enough that cultures are largely homogenous, or is the map large enough to include two or three or more separate and distinct competing/cooperating cultures (complete with distinct architecture, unit graphics, etc)?

While we are working our cultures and scale out, what kind of history should our world have? Is it a war-torn area with centuries of conflict behind it, or is it a peaceful land suddenly brought into a terrible conflict that no one had anticipated? (Or are we on a large enough scale that there is room for both areas - some conflict prone and some peaceful?)

I have some ideas, but I want to wait for some discussion before I offer them.

To be honest, and I seem to be contradicting Matt's plan to some extent, I think the only productive way to work on the story is to do it in tandem with planning what the game itself will be like. Writing a lot of fictional history won't get you much further if you haven't decided whether to make a FF or a B&D or whatever else. By contrast, working out how the game will play out can point you in the right direction as far as background story goes.

I think the only productive way to work on the story is to do it in tandem with planning what the game itself will be like.

I am of the same opinion actually and I think Matt has the same idea about this. Story should not refer only to the background but also to setting the stage for what will be triggered in the latter phases of the development, at least as far as the main quest is concerned.

Writing a lot of fictional history won't get you much further if you haven't decided whether to make a FF or a B&D or whatever else.

I think it's pretty well established at this point that the game will be mainly an open-world rpg, which happens to be best suited for this kind of experiment IMO.

Seonid, the points you raise are very good, and I have a few of my own. I think that the best course of action to get all of these ideas together would be to have a brainstorming session moderated by Matt, at a time and in a medium that suits all of us (maybe it would be best done live), and that would hopefully result in a list of things we mean to achieve and goals for the project, as soon as the writers team is well established.

I'm not familiar with google docs but it sounds like a good idea all the same.

[This message has been edited by panel (edited 03-16-2015 @ 02:20 PM).]

Could I ask in as story contributor?

To be honest, and I seem to be contradicting Matt's plan to some extent, I think the only productive way to work on the story is to do it in tandem with planning what the game itself will be like. Writing a lot of fictional history won't get you much further if you haven't decided whether to make a FF or a B&D or whatever else. By contrast, working out how the game will play out can point you in the right direction as far as background story goes.

I rather hoped those working on the story would be able to keep the gameplay in mind as they write. For example, this plot point will require a FF battle, etc. Our gameplay is roughly RPG in that we want to keep it kind of open and have different heroes, but beyond that it's going to be based on what fits.

Can I add you to the story group, Julius? You are quite good at keeping stories gameplay focussed, and maybe you can help keep the fantasy from getting silly.

I think it's pretty well established at this point that the game will be mainly an open-world rpg, which happens to be best suited for this kind of experiment IMO

Indeed, but that doesn't prohibit certain objectives or parts from straying into other genres.

What kind of cultures do we have in our known world, and what is their relationship with historical Earth cultures?

(They could be identical to an Earth culture, similar but not identical to a culture, inspired by but significantly divergent from the culture, or completely new and unrelated to any Earth culture. This list is ranked by the amount of work that each culture would take. My advice is to pick either of the middle two options - cultures exactly the same as Earth's is rather cliche in a fantasy world, but cultures completely unrelated is way too much work for an AoK project. In addition, it may not even be possible to adequately represent an alien culture in the game.)

Let's stick to something roughly representative of medieval Europe. It is, after all, the setting for most of AoK. Deviations from such a culture can be easily done with a bit of modding, but something new entirely will exponentially increase the workload.

In a related vein - What kind of scale are we working on - is our space small enough that cultures are largely homogenous, or is the map large enough to include two or three or more separate and distinct competing/cooperating cultures (complete with distinct architecture, unit graphics, etc)?

Realistically, we can include 4 cultures/races. The islands can be home to one, the forest another, the mountains a third. The main grass area is huge, but if we want multiple locations for quests it is likely we will need all this space for one main faction.

While we are working our cultures and scale out, what kind of history should our world have? Is it a war-torn area with centuries of conflict behind it, or is it a peaceful land suddenly brought into a terrible conflict that no one had anticipated? (Or are we on a large enough scale that there is room for both areas - some conflict prone and some peaceful?)

Whatever works for the story. Let's worry less about history and back story until we have a main plot hashed out. Use things like history to flesh out the story.

I have some ideas, but I want to wait for some discussion before I offer them.

I am adding you (and Julius, if he agrees), to give us four writers (I'll also be marginally contributing to this area, so a full five).

Thanks, Panel. I like the idea of a brainstorming session.

And just in case I wasn't clear with my original post, while I am able to help with various aspects of the mod, the part I am most interested in contributing is with the story.

So I'd like to officially request to be a part of the story team.

Feel free to ask for other contributions if you need it, though.

[EDIT:] Ninja'd by Matt!

[This message has been edited by Seonid (edited 03-16-2015 @ 02:27 PM).]

Posts are coming in faster than I can reply lol.

Seonid, the points you raise are very good, and I have a few of my own. I think that the best course of action to get all of these ideas together would be to have a brainstorming session moderated by Matt, at a time and in a medium that suits all of us (maybe it would be best done live), and that would hopefully result in a list of things we mean to achieve and goals for the project, as soon as the writers team is well established.

I see my role for the story as mostly coordinating ideas and such. I think between the four names I have something excellent should be possible, I'll just be overseeing to make sure it all works out.

An email chain, google docs, skype, I'm not picky. Whatever works for you guys.

@Excelsior,
I'd like to keep the writing team to 3-4, and with me coordinating it we are already at five. I'm going to put you down as a replacement if someone else drops out. My choices for this were actually going to be Julius, Basse, and panel even if they didn't volunteer.

A lot of the details of the story will be open to the general community to work on I am sure as well.

That's fine, my post volunteering was actually before you picked Julius and Seonid, so I thought there was an opening. (Plus, working with Panel! )

I will of course do my best to be a helpful, and un-annoying, community member.

[This message has been edited by Excelsior (edited 03-16-2015 @ 02:45 PM).]

I was writing up a rather large post while you posted and didn't read it until after.

Do you want to make a different thread for community input on each branch? For say, if there is a modding question, the modding community can discuss it in their own little thread, etc.

That way, people don't feel like they're possibly cluttering a discussion with off-topic suggestions.

For heroes, I know you made a few females for ToME. I think it would be nice if we finally had a scenario with a female who actually had her own military graphics, rather than ye olde Joan of Arc/female villager sprites.

I personally would like something other than the usual Warrior/Archer/Mage standard RPG fare. I wonder if we could do a sort of Noble/Peasant variation, where the Noble is strong in military skills, and is able to command troops in the game, while the Peasant is part of the troops-at least in the major FF portion. This would give a dimension I don't feel is often seen in most RPGs, but I imagine it would be a total pain to implement, I suppose. And, it would still boil down to W/A/M at the end, in a way.

[This message has been edited by Excelsior (edited 03-16-2015 @ 03:07 PM).]

I need to clarify, is this project to be an RPG-style scenario enhanced with mods, or do you intend to make a Diablo-like game with the engine?

Plus, working with Panel!

For what it's worth, Excelsior was a great help to me during the development of The Successor Act II. He did more than playtest, he gave insightful suggestions and I'd go as far as to say it wouldn't have been the same game without his feedback. So I know for a fact that having him contribute to the project in some way or another would be an asset.

Excellent. Thanks, Matt! If nobody objects, I'll set up a Google Doc with everyone on the list later tonight (in about 5 hours or so). If your e-mail is private, send me an email (mine is public, and in my profile) and I'll add you as soon as I get it.

If it turns out that we don't like the Doc, then we can work a different way.

I'll save my story ideas until then.

Can I add you to the story group, Julius? You are quite good at keeping stories gameplay focussed, and maybe you can help keep the fantasy from getting silly.

Yeah, okay. I'll be the team grump.

I wonder if we could do a sort of Noble/Peasant variation, where the Noble is strong in military skills, and is able to command troops in the game, while the Peasant is part of the troops-at least in the major FF portion. This would give a dimension I don't feel is often seen in most RPGs, but I imagine it would be a total pain to implement, I suppose. And, it would still boil down to W/A/M at the end, in a way.

Nice idea. I think the noble/peasant thing has lots of potential. The amount of work it will take could be managed by using the same name for both characters, assuming no one's planning to build two complete storylines on one map.

The main risk is that already you're making the noble path seem a lot more fun (better at fighting, gets to command units). I think that at some stage we could have the peasant win a tournament or something so that he gets to command units too.

[This message has been edited by Julius999 (edited 03-16-2015 @ 03:31 PM).]

I was thinking perhaps an option where he is allowed to mingle among the common folk, perform certain rewarding spy missions, and eventually earn a place as lieutenant. Obviously, the idea needs fleshed out, as it was primarily looking for something unique for a forum project of this epicness.

Agreed with the use of a google doc. In conjunction with Dropbox that should do quite nicely. My email is in my profile.

I was just thinking of a conversation that I had with Julius and Matt on the SWS forum about plot and worldbuilding in the fantasy genre, and I think a lot of the points would be quite relevant for this. I believe it's in the public section of the forum, so I'll link it here. My opinions are probably best summed up in this post.

Obviously, when you're setting up a story in AoK, your medium is inherently limited. This forces you to rely on a balance of novelty and simplicity. For this reason, I like what we have set up so far. As per the above posts and OP, our world (culturally) is essentially Medieval Europe, the names seem to be Nordic/Germanic/Anglo-Saxon, and we have a relatable and tangible source of conflict (dragon), which is a great foundation to build on. I think everyone on the story team knows how to keep a story under control, so I'm not really worried at all on that front

[This message has been edited by HockeySam18 (edited 03-16-2015 @ 04:20 PM).]

If you need some data advice or data work, feel free to ask me. I have to focus on other things and a different project first though.

Plus, I might go to NZ for 6 weeks next month, even though as of now it's unlikely.

Some data editing is a good idea if we're going down the RPG route. If there is a unit whose base name is the name of the hero then we can use technologies as a seamless way of getting upgrades/items at stores etc.

Once we've made the decision to commit to modding (which we already have) I also think we should use data editing to make some simple and easily understood changes to increase variety in combat. Having pikemen with 1 range and archers with minimum range could change things up quite a bit on the tactical level.

I'm loving the discussion that are already quickly coming about.

My suggestion is the first thing we need is a page long Story Treatment which implements the Basic Outline of the Story, a Brief description of the World that it will be set in and a couple of Names that we can work on. From here the story writers have a basic feel as to where the story will go, and they can then work on the backstory as well, and the map designers will know how the basic map will look like, terrains and stuff, and as the story progresses, more detail can be put into the map.

Sam maybe we should keep in email contact and discuss thing about map design, and maybe some people we could think of who we could potentialy ask if their interested.

Also a question that I don't think I've seen asked yet, unless Ive missed it is: Will this be made with modded HD/AoF or modded TC

[This message has been edited by Possidon (edited 03-16-2015 @ 05:18 PM).]

Excelsior, I am going to add you to the story group after all. It's a few more than I planned on, but you have already had one decent idea, might as well let you in.

I think the peasant/noble thing works well. The peasant could always be a hunter. In this way he can evolve into more of a ranger type unit as he progresses, while the nobleman is more your fighter/tank. This would give us two play styles, and two different perspectives. The final boss/battle/objective could see the two heroes team up, with the player working the one he used all along and the other as an ally. Then you can play the scenario again to see the other guy's story.

The amount of work it will take could be managed by using the same name for both characters

An alternative used a lot in RPG's is to give the character some sort of story based position (like the Dragonborn is Skyrim, the Arisen in Dragon's Dogma, etc). This lets NPC's interact with the character based on his status as opposed to his identity.

Do you want to make a different thread for community input on each branch? For say, if there is a modding question, the modding community can discuss it in their own little thread, etc.

That way, people don't feel like they're possibly cluttering a discussion with off-topic suggestions.

We might be pretty onerous to anyone not participating if we have 5 threads going.

If it gets complicated, we can always put a tag on our posts so someone looking for oonly one type of discussion can skim through.

For heroes, I know you made a few females for ToME. I think it would be nice if we finally had a scenario with a female who actually had her own military graphics, rather than ye olde Joan of Arc/female villager sprites.

I can make basically anything lol. So no worries there. I also probably have 3-4 female units that aren't in ToME already.

@Possidon,
I thought of that, but the version almost everyone here has in the CD version of the conquerors. It's also the easiest to mod. Makes sense to use that version. I have HD as well so if there is a real outcry to use that we can, but I suspect the CD version is our best bet.