I like the idea. I assume since you're asking it's easy to impliment.

BTW, What happens if a unit has concealment and wasteland concealment? Would there be any conflict?

A great idea.

It makes sense.

Very good idea. I like the new strategic possibilities.

Sounds good to me, also opens up new possibilities for mapmakers

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great idea, the pros greatly outnumber the weak con anyways.

I'm not sure... It may unbalance many maps.

I think Haflings and Fairies can hide behind trunks and branches But seriously, if you implement this, shades and spirits shouldn't be concealed in normal forest and especially in sacred woods...

only wasteland concealment and invisiblity should allow an unit to conceal in dead trees. i like the change, it makes wildfire finally a bit useful

Ok, so far most people seem to be in favour!

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Yes, the consequences apply to existing maps and it might have a fairly big impact on games with a lot of wasteland. For single player, it doesnt matter anyway, since concealment doesn't work against the AI. It's mostly the multiplayer community that would be affected.

Some opinions from mp-mapmakers would be nice. Especially Greenmonster and King David, for example, that make popular mp maps. I sure wouldn't mind, in fact, I always hoped wastelands would become more desolate unfriendly for halflings and elves in Fight for Light or Drums of Death, for example. More possibilities for designing maps.

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That would be reserved for grassconcealment (which can (and is, I believe) given at medals.

For the rmg, it would be a small issue (as grassland trunks are usually near normal trees), but certain premade maps might be affected. The very big trunks/dead trees can still provide concealment, though!

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This cannot be done. A tree is either considered 'dense vegetation' or not!

Shades can receive wasteland concealment and a slight stat reduction to compensate? It might be too strong.
Since these were the case in the original, the change can be considered an improvement upon it. Anyway, I don't want to take it too far by adapting existing units too much.

I see the pionts, though, Hatifnat! Would you agree the change might be worth it, looking at the advantages?

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It might be easy, but there could be some problems. For example, I will have to test if the fire really works and what happens when units with terrain altering abilities walk through.
Edit: also RosenMcstern had a very good point in that it might be impossible to uncouple it from the movement hindrance.

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Nope, the unit would be concealed in any wasteland. If it moves up to grassland, it would be visible (unless it moves into dense vegetation).

[This message has been edited by swolte (edited 05-31-2005 @ 10:09 AM).]

I think it's a good idea.

Ok, here are the results from tests, it doesnt look good. I fear RosenMcStern was right in that it's hard to make it consume 8 movement at the same time and not conceal.

The new dead treetrunk tiles would have to abide by three rules:
1. It should not allow units with concealment to conceal!
2. It should consume 8 movement
3. It should be combinable terrain on one hex with normal trees.

Well, all the candidates failed at 2 or 3! There was one candidate movement type that didn't allow concealment (1) and consumed 6 movement (regardless of forestry: 2), but unfortunately, it was not combinable with other dense forest terraintiles! I do not think that is acceptable.

We'll keep trying and if anyone challenged in this area has any ideas, plz post them!

Unless people want 'pure' dead treetiles to consume 4 movepoints, it seems impossible to do!

why should it consume 8 movement points? If it is just dead trees then it is not so hard to find your way through such forest. In a real forest (with leaves, grass, bushes and flowers) you can easily get lost without forestry skill.

[This message has been edited by luc96 (edited 05-31-2005 @ 01:01 PM).]

Luc's argument makes sense, and there are some good reasons for removing concealment from dead trees. I would definately consider wasteland concealment for the shade, however. His trail of darkness will be enough to alert his presence, but I think something should offset his loss of concealment in the trees on his home turf should this idea be adopted.

However, there should be at least some penalty for moving through dead trees. You still have to climb over logs and work through stumps and brambles. 6 mp sounds like a pretty good compromise, if possible.

Swolte - when you say that your attempt was not combinable with other dense forest tiles, could you elaborate a bit more? I wonder if order of placement makes a difference? For example, place plants first and then the trees, or vice versa. I'm sure you tried that, but just double-checking

how about making deserts and swamps and maybe snow 6 movement?

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One point you may be overlooking:

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That implies a fourth condition:

4) Terrain altering spells must transition properly between normal "DenseVegitation" tiles and the selected "DeadTrunks" tiles.

I'm not sure this can or will work the way you think. The Terrain Movement type is set per hex for each map object. It does not vary with the graphic index which is based on underlying terrian type.

When the underlying Terrain type is changed as by a spell the engine noramally just changes graphics indices. For other, terrain specific features the engine selects a new terrain overlay tile of the same Movement Type if possible. If the existing movement type for a tile is DenseVegetation and there is no corresponding tile of that type for the new Terrain substrate, I don't believe it will choose one with a different different type corresponding to what you want - probably LightVegetation. Perhaps more importantly, even if it does the counter spell will not be able to change it back again. At best this would enhance Path of Decay / Darklands while degrading Path of Life / Rejuvanate. At worst, it would result in stripping the area of all terrain leaving only the underlying base type.

Unfortunately I don't have the Editor handy to test this in action, but if I'm correct it will amount to a deal killer per your original strategic considerations.

That would be nice if it is possible, Luc.

Looking at this picture, you can see the area of the left having both normal trees and dead trees. The right area only has dead trees.

This is possible:
Option1: we leave everything as it is.

Option2: Dead trees will receive the movement type 'transparent' or 'none'.
Walking through the right area: will not conceal any unit (except grassconcealment), all units will take 4 movement.
Walking through the left area: will conceal units with concealment, units without forestry will take 8 movement.

Option3: Dead trees will receive the movement type 'vegetation'.
Walking through the right area: will not conceal any unit (except grassconcealment), all units will take 6 movement (even forestry).
Walking through the left area: Errrr... this particular scene would not be possible to place anymore in the editor, since here, dead trees and normal trees are on the same hexes. Despite order of placement.

Personally I would pick option 2, but for a patchchange that affects current maps, I think the change might be a little controversial and bold. I am still willing to go for it, but we might have to give up a little more for it.

I know it sounds weird that swamp and snow only take 4 movement in the game as well (some creative thinking is required). These dead trees 4 movement will affect current mapdesigns even more. I would also understand that it doesn't feel right that it takes only 4!

To Chow: I tested it and it works as it should. Buring a forest, will not allow units to conceal anymore (when the burned trees are set to option 2). It works, but indeed, it was something that needed to be tested!

[This message has been edited by swolte (edited 05-31-2005 @ 03:06 PM).]

is there any negatives to option 2? What happens to the dead trees in option 2 if you "rejuvinate" them?

also if you do wildfire on Snow or Ice can it be made so it melts them? Or is already that way, I can't really recall.

I wonder what happens if you use clear terrain on these dead trees. What would raise/lower terrain do? I guess that this will be taken care of in testing...I'm just curious.

Also, does the game engine have anything that effects the water besides the freeze water function?

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They stay Dead, which is a separate "Object Type" (not to be confused with "Movement Type") which can exist on any terrain. Burning an "Oak Tree", "Pine Tree" or "Willow" forest converts it to the "Dead Tree" object type. Death Storm or Path of Decay only change the underlying terrain and leave the Bject Type as is.

NB: IIRC, the "Dead Tree" type rather curiously does not actually appear on the "Wasteland" map menu, only the Oak, Pine, and Willow types. To place "Dead Tree" tiles, you need to use the Grassland object, then change the underlying terrain to Wasteland. The RMG doesn't do this so the effect there will probably not be what you expect. Also, since one of your concerns was existing map realize that few mapmakers are likely to have used this trick unless they explicitly wanted the trees to stay "dead." If non-concealment only in those explicitly dead forests are your goal your idea is sound, but that's not how you presented the strategic idea.

I think you've convinced me Swolte.
I'd pick option 2... 4 Movement Points seem to be fair when compared with swamp and snow.

I just hope that all terrain altering spells will work properly.

[This message has been edited by hatifnat (edited 05-31-2005 @ 04:12 PM).]

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Of course, if we go for option 2, the wasteland trees will be 'treated' as if they were dead trees. Meaning, they will receive a Movement Type of 'None'. I should have made that more clear in the top post.

When these 'oak trees' become grassland through path of life, you will be able to conceal in them. Also, walking a reaper through 'oak trees', will turn the lands into wasteland and not allow units to conceal anymore. In practise this works (only it takes one hex of movement or a turnload to update the concealment status).
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For example, this is what I did with option2 enabled:
Having a concealed witch in the oaktrees

-> Swolte moves reaper next to the Gladerunner and all turns to wasteland oaktrees (looks like dead trees).
Observes: the GR stays concealed at first sight. Moving the GR one hex will unconceal it. Also, moving a Gladerunner into the wasteland oaks will not allow it to conceal. After ending the turn, all units in the wasteland trees are unconcealed.
(All units travel through the terrain at a cost of 4 mp).

-> Swolte moves a hero with path of life over the area.
The Gladerunners that were unconcealed instantly conceal!
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I have no reason to assume it wouldn't work different with terrain changing spells, but it will have to be tested, of course.

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The price is that moving through a forest of dead or wasteland trees will consume 4 movement points. This is very different and might be counterintuitive.

It's not more counterintuitive than swamp consuming 4 mp as well, but it's different from what we are used to. Option 2 seems more attractive but more feedback is welcome now that the consequences become clearer and clearer.

[This message has been edited by swolte (edited 05-31-2005 @ 04:52 PM).]

Option 3, would fully forested living tree areas work like normal? Would it slow down units by 8 unless they have forestry and can move 4 square?

Can path of life, rejuvenation etc be made to convert dead trees to living ones?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 05-31-2005 @ 05:37 PM).]

At least it seems logical ... dead trees provide much less concealment than living trees ...

It it was an RPG, I'd say that there is a chance that concealment will work, but it is very small. (You can still hide behind a tree.) In a wood consiting of living trees, this chance would be *much* bette.

So, in an RPG I would roll dice, and if they match a certain number, concealment would work or fail.

I don't know how to describe it in English, but that's the way how I'd implement it. But since AoW isn't an RPG, I don't know how it would work ...

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Mmmmm, interesting comment, I'll have to have a think about that one

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I agree, for dead trees, eg the standing trunks left after a firestorm, which is what Swolte showed in his example and refers to in his test re 'burning' a forest. I'm not so sure I'd agree on that basis for wasteland trees in general since esthetically I don't see such areas as necessarily dead and blasted. Rather, I tend to think of them as choked with underbrush and shrouded in darkness. Think more of Mirkwood in LoTR, which if anything was more difficult to move in / see through then say the forests of Lorien.

But from a strategic point of view I can see Swolte's point of making sneak attacks harder. Perhaps even if one considers "[forest]concealment" as meaning "camouflage" (as surely it must for all other concealments) rather then "hiding behind stuff" then the argument can be made that the typical mottled gren / brown / gold camo that works in a light-dappled forest will be less effective of place in a gloomy shrouded one.

My principle concern though was whether it would in fact work as advertised, which I would think would require switching the actual tile IDs on terrain changes rather then simply changing the graphic index. Not really sure how the engine handles that though, so it's something that needs to be tested before a decision is made that might not be feasible.

I know I'm chiming in late here, but I'm not sold on this idea at all. I just don't see that this is a necessary or desirable tweak. Is concealment too powerful? I hardly think so. You can argue that it isn't logical, but as ChowGuy says, Wasteland need not necessarily mean dead and blasted. Even if it does, it's not a matter of being able to 'hide behind a tree.' Remember, we're talking about dense vegetation, not about a single tree here or there, and even dense vegetation which is dead and blasted could provide reasonable cover. If it's an anti-concealment spell you're looking for, there's already Clear Terrain.

In any case, this seems to me to go beyond the parameters of a patch.

Yes, although I still think it would make sense to not conceal (or add strategic depth), I agree it becomes a bit much for a upatch. Not to mention the fact that it's a change that we will have to test as well.

We'll keep on thinking if there are ways to get the movement penalty. Then, I think, it will become more interesting to implement!

A more compromising solution would be that only the low/average density dead trees/wasteland trees will get option-2, and the dense ones won't. In the picture I posted in this thread, I used the MOST dense tile.
This does come with the disadvantage that a player cannot always clearly see if he can conceal a unit in these deadtrees or not (in fact, it's a gamble... fun?), but it keeps most advantages (it won't look as weird that it consumed 4, units are unconcealed and there wont be troubles with mixing tiles).

Ideas are welcome but for now, the idea is on very low priority and will most likely not make it at all!

Quoted from luc:

then, frostlings would need "snow walking" and tigrans/nomads "desert walking", cause i don't quite agree that those races should be slowed down in friendly terrain there they get a moral bonus.

increasing movement cost/hex for swampland is ok. there is currently no race that gets any bonus on that terrain or could use crops on it. while i don't get it out of my head that draconians -in fact lizards but different than in aow1- should be rather able to be used to it.

Quoted from luc:

wildfire does melt nothing, not even snow or frozen water. frozen water can be melt by a fire storm, but not wildfire.(tested) i quite like the graphical nature of this spell, but this spell currently is very useless, though. you may cast it on your wizard tower with all units with fire halo or fire immunity and watch your city burning on the overland map. a wonderful sight, but thats all about it.
there is another minor use for it in online games and for simultanious turns. you can cast that spell on an enemy stack causing minor or no damage and next turn you will be the first one who moves. eliminates fast click and automove, tested on lord kolusar, but with pestilence, wildfire share this effect though with pestilence and several other overland spells as well.

while i also consider the topic rather minor to be added to a patch, i do like the spirit behind it. to make wildfire more useful and dead trees more authentic and diverse to other trees in the game.

Quoted from hatifnat:

only considering dead trees? the terrain altering spells are still bugged. i still never heard of a fix how to solve the crop on global terrain spells issue, that just dissappear, if you play pbem or load a save. consequently and ultimately this makes the lvl4 water spell spring rains totally useless. all additional crops disappears and have to regrow the next turn you load a save.
another one is the windmill bug: use clear terrain on a windmill with crops and the crops are gone forever. they will in no way ever grow back. same happens, if you use certain spells or abilities to change the terrain right under the windmill to ice or wasteland and change it back to grasslands later.....the crops will never regrow - unlike city crops. i think the same windmill-crop bug happens if you just raze the windmill. if only this annoyance could be ever fixed? well, that would be great news, indeed!

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Of course, as far as a race with swamp walk, orcs make good candidates for that. Their brute strength and large size would make it easy for them to trudge through water and mud.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-01-2005 @ 06:03 PM).]