People online seem to love simple maps. As hard as I and other people have tried in the past to make the better, high rated scenarios, catch on, it has always been a futile endeavour.

As far as I can tell, the vast majority of the multiplayer scenario-playing mass wants the most simple, yet most fun, experience. It appears that they do not find opening cinematics instantly rewarding. Nor do they find scenarios where they actually need to use skill, cunning - strategy and tactics. These people prefer just 'messing around' with some random people on maps which take little effort.
I don't understand it exactly, but they appear to find the most simple scenarios the most fun because they are rewarding for little effort.

The vast majority of bloods take little intelligence to do well at. You work towards nothing - your units are instantly spawned en masse and you have the simple objective of moving them towards the middle of the map. Once there, you gain instant gratification in the form of a large amount of quick kills, for which, in most bloods, you gain rewards in the form of stronger troops.

Instant gratification is what most people saerch for. Unfortunately, they do not want to work in a scenario. Apparently, they do enough of that when playing standard 'random maps'.

My most recent idea for a multiplayer scenario was to base the scenario on a real historical event, such as a battle (or something), but make the scenario playable from 1-(4-8) players.
The way this will work is that you can play this as a one player, or with friends.
If you play the scenario with other humans, they will be required to type a simple chat message (such as 'IN') within the first 20-or-so seconds, and then all the triggers that control that player, and essentially, the AI for that player, will be deactivated. The player who said 'IN' will then be given their objective and the player will be playable with a human.

If you play it as a one-player, you will be given your objective and such like, but all the other players will be controlled by AI, with a vast variety of random things and complicated objectives that the AI accomplishes. It will be fairly simple to accomplish, and I think it will be a good idea. The scenario will be playable with any number of players, as, any player that is not human will simply use their AI.

It is a different approach, and from a purely MP/balance perspective, I think it raises some questions, but I think most of those can be overcome by simply saying, it's a game.

1. Increase amount of people using the editor and creating more idiotic MP blood style games.
2. People not wanting to take the time to learn the editor so MP play will consist of the same static maps being played over and over again, therefore killing MP play altogether.
3. An increase in editor use and quality MP scenarios produced for the online community.

MP scenarios when the experts players left Empires is what saved the online community there IMO. Even though the majority of the scenarios were not very creative and were just random map script or seeded maps put together in a couple of hours, people seemed to like them. So what is a veteran designer like Intrepid to do? It's hard to say. Designers are like artist, or should I say they are artists. And just like most art the work put in is not always appreciated by the public. My suggestion is to start MP design again since this is a new game and a fresh start that will attract possibly a different more seasoned crowd.

One question for me is I am only familiar with the scenario's created for Empires. Is the same type of poorly constructed MP scn's created for the Age series as well? Have highly rated MP scenario's been received well by that online communtity?

Quote:

I don't think people will make the most of the RMS-features to the scenario editor. This is mainly because I see these features as being similar to the Quest Variables in AOM:TT, where you could randomise QV's, and essentially randomise absolutely anything you want.
Naturally, it will not be exactly the same, because constructing a random map in such a way will be time consuming, and I hope SSS have come up with something better.Probably something similar to RMSing itself where you can define how far away you want trees to be randomly placed around a town center, and the game will automatically choose the spots (as long as they are, for example, 70 metres from player one's town center).

I had zero doubts that the internet community (HG... etc) will take to the random features of the RAF editor brilliantly.

The problem arises when people go online for a quick game, and can't be bothered to read, or learn the rules for a particular scenario. They may be scared away by the possibility that they will do something wrong. This stops people playing more complex scenarios that have themes and a variety of things to do.

In RTW, we often have themed matches with set rules for given units so as to create a certain battle situation. Its easy to set up with other HG members, as you can arrange it on the forums, and other forum members normally have time to talk and arrange a given game in the game lobby. But try and set up a themed or ruled game on your own, and it will take a long time to get the game to fill up, and when it does, about fifty percent of the people don't adere to a given scenario, and spoil it for everyone else. Although instances like this in RTW differ from in Age or EE games, the principle is the same.

I have to say unfortunatly that I agree with the statement that a lot people who play MP are getting away from any "complexitys" of the single player game. If I play an online RTS, I would rather play it like single player mode, but against a much more able opponent. Whether or not other people want an able opponent or not dosen't seem to matter, as they seem to play RTS games solely for the battles, and miss out on the strategies, tactics, economics, and other intricacies that make RTSs what they are for me. Its like playing Chess and just charging across the board.

I think that one of the best to get the community at large playing more complex maps is to make sure they are out there. Rather than having 5 rated maps sit on the download database, we should promote them, and play them as often as possible. If a lot of HG members can play online and play these maps, then they will be put out into the community. Maybe the fact that a lot of people don't want to play them leaves others unnawares of their existence. All we have to do is get several maps out their, and gain a following, then people should come here and download other maps without us having to do anything, thus increasing the number of complex and niteresting MP scenarios.

Unfortunatly, given the current online community, this is much easier said then done. I feel that if you want to play a game like RaF just for the fighting, you would be better of going and playing Counterstrike instead.

---

house won this

nOObs ruin it for everyone else, but there are more nOObs out there than competant players, so we as competant players are doomed to conform to nOOb rules.

But this is my question: Preset maps = endless maps from editor? How so? Even if there is RMS, and you want a unique map, the editor is still available for you to create your own map that isn't RMS. So what is the problem that RMS poses?

And where did you obtain this information Intrepid? Have you heard that this is what SSSi has already done? or are still going to do?

We mustn't forget that Random Map Scripts were revolutionary for the RTS genre, and removing them is stepping back more than 10 years in game development.

[This message has been edited by Lysimachus (edited 08-07-2005 @ 10:06 PM).]

I haven't been following this game as feverishly as I did with their last two so I'm guessitimating here together with my prior experience.

How and when exactly did SSS say they're not using RMS? And I don't see the difference if they didn't use random map scripts and used the editor somehow to randomly make maps.. It's still a random map, how does it change anything? Unless they've switched to only pre-set maps but that doesn't sound like what you said. From my experience, scenarios are always a side-issue with RTS developers, and I'm finding it extremely hard to believe they made an editor that is as good as you make it seem.

If you want to test MP scenarios at their best, you should try playing Starcraft online. They can be simple on the surface, but filled with ridculous depth and strategy.

We used to have a ton of discussions on MP scenarios. Really, I really don't think they'll ever catch on past a niche crowd. And it takes a very popular MP game to have a decent size niche crowd. Honestly, no one wants anything complex when it comes to multiplayer. The best multiplayer games (PC, card game, board game, etc) are ones that are basic and easy to play/learn but very hard to master. For example, poker is a game you can pickup within minutes, but it can take forever to be any good at it. Same with Monopoly, AOK Blood, and other games.

Trying to make a complex MP scenario requires a large population willing to take the time to learn all the rules. It also requires a larger effort on the part of the designer to make the game balanced yet diverse. If the author of the map can beat others easily then the game is neither diverse nor balanced.

There's a reason why all the MMORPG games suck and are very basic compared to their console/board/PC single player brothers. A person by himself can go explore a map or story for a hour, but that just doesn't work in a MP setting.

[This message has been edited by Angel Park (edited 08-07-2005 @ 10:29 PM).]

Quoted from http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/609/609821p2.html:

According to this interview, all of the maps that will ship with Rise and Fall will be developed in the editor, or at least in conjunction with the scenario editor. I suppose I have taken a leap of imagination in assuming that there will be new features help randomize maps, but this interview seems to state that it will entirely possible to construct a map within the editor and then add random elements to it when hosting the map. Random Map Scripting has always been out of the grasp of all but a few RTS enthusiasts. With the system SSSI is employing it sounds as if you will be able to create a map in the editor that has the random features of random map script.

Speculation: I am very excited as this means that the average person will be able to create simple standard maps in the editor with random features. This is something that the RTS community has been clamoring for since Aok; the ability to construct random maps in the editor without having to learn programming.

[This message has been edited by Intrepid (edited 08-08-2005 @ 04:23 PM).]

I hope, but I don't expect.

Quote:

I do not really consider this to be a problem. I have no qualms with people who try to design interesting maps while keeping to the basics of a standard map. In fact this is how I started designing in AoK, making maps that had interesting designs while keeping to the conventions of a standard map. The players in my multiplayer maps would always start with a town center, three villagers, a scout, and the proper resources amounts (The standard AoK start. Some people are only comfortable playing a game the way the developers designed it. If people want to design simple maps that stick to the conventions of standard play, I say go ahead.

[This message has been edited by Lysimachus (edited 08-08-2005 @ 05:47 PM).]

Well, maybe because random maps are, in all technicality, scenarios, you won't be able to do this.
You'll still be able to load up the pre-packaged maps and alter them, if only simply, easily enough.