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Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » Scenario Design » I am disappointed with online scenarios
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Topic Subject: I am disappointed with online scenarios
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Mephiles
Skirmisher
(id: Titan602)
posted 09-05-07 05:01 PM EDT (US)   
Hi. I'm Mephiles. You may remember me from AoMH. Anyway, I hosted a cat and mice scanario I rushed to make and I was very disappointed while making it and while hosting it. The editor on AoEIII has a mind of it's own. The timer kept changing the amount of seconds I imputted, it deleted a trigger so I had to make it again and something else happened but I forgot what it was... I then hosted it and it took me 15 minutes to actually get people and start the game. These people thought they were playing a supremacy or something... I don't know... anyway, some guys came and when I had all 5 players, I told them it was 4v1 so that it should be like this: P1 = 1, P2 = 1, P3= 1, P4 = 1, P5 = 2 but player 3 was team 2 and player 5 was team 1. In RMs, it doesn't matter who is what team and which player but in scenarios, it does! Players didn't know that which is very annoying. After starting the game, it OoSed (Out of Synced). A message seen frequently in AoM's ESO on scenarios.
MEPH
[Insert amazingly witty signature here.]

Me and Yeebaagooon's scenarios | Download The Corruptor
Author
Replies:
MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 09-05-07 05:32 PM EDT (US)     1 / 39  

That doesn’t sound too good.

If Custom Scenarios get OOS often then no one would want to play them, and there would be no reason to make them any more.

I haven’t try mine yet, and I am afraid that I am in for unpleasant surprise.
My AOE3 Scenarios:
Strategic Objectives: Death Valley / Strategic Objectives: Russo-Turkish Wars
The Tapir Witch Chronicles: Immortal Cows – Single Player / Multiplayer
“Annihilation” 2V2 (Supremacy) Multiplayer / Tribe Wars (2V2/FFA) Multiplayer
Strategic Objectives: Islands / Forest Domination II Multiplayer / Geronimo’s Revenge
More Scenarios / http://www.moshelevi.com
nottud
Royal Guard
posted 09-05-07 08:35 PM EDT (US)     2 / 39  
Does custom RMS sync online alot too?
The boy with the mad imagination
Prepare for the ultimate duel!
Learn to use all my triggers and what you can do with them. Visit here.
Find out and download the transform trigger here.
Play some minigames I have created outside AOM including some 3D games here.
pftq
Skirmisher
posted 09-05-07 09:29 PM EDT (US)     3 / 39  
Anything can sync online if you don't make it right.

RMS, if done correctly, never syncs online. For scenarios, if even a simple map syncs, ES might have messed up the editor for that.
AOE3 Maps: Fort Wars, Castle Blood, AOE3Racer, Cannon Fodder, No Rush Maps, Observer Maps
More AoM/E3 Stuff: Fort Wars Ladder, Castle Blood Ladder, Advanced Triggers Set
<- - ( pq - a pftq production ) - - >
Widget
Skirmisher
posted 09-06-07 00:42 AM EDT (US)     4 / 39  
same happend i got OOS and hade to change map into a FFA due to the team issue. ES really have done a bad job i think.
~#~#~ ESO: bacon~#~#~

Favorite Civs: China, Germans, Aztec

PR Rank: Master Sergeant.
Reinfire
Skirmisher
posted 09-06-07 06:55 AM EDT (US)     5 / 39  
hosted a cat and mice scanario
You played a Cat n Mice map, no wonder you were disappointed, those maps are disappointing even with all the triggers working properly

Plz for the sake of the people that still play this dont bring all the lame scenarios from AoM like Cat n Mice, Escape, Zelda and 3 Warchiefs are watching. Plz, the people on ESO2 are still pure, lets keep them that way

Anyway, by sounds of it ES rushed things through as usual
Reinfire
--Retired Scenario Designer--
Everybody needs to beleive in something. I beleive I will have another beer
gunner1
Scenario Expert
posted 09-06-07 10:55 AM EDT (US)     6 / 39  
Anyway, by sounds of it ES rushed things through as usual
i am glad they did, otherwise we would be waiting years for the patch
Scenarios I have made
Single Player-: CAMPAIGN - Christmas - Forest River RPG - Total Freedom
MultiPlayer-: Castle Blood Automatic - Mafia Hitman - Warrior Defence
ESO = sandstorm....................................................................................."I won the bet on 1.04!"
Mephiles
Skirmisher
(id: Titan602)
posted 09-06-07 11:04 AM EDT (US)     7 / 39  
You played a Cat n Mice map, no wonder you were disappointed, those maps are disappointing even with all the triggers working properly
I just said that I was the one who made the map It only had 2 triggers, containing a timer, a counter:timer, 4 player won's and a player lost.
MEPH
[Insert amazingly witty signature here.]

Me and Yeebaagooon's scenarios | Download The Corruptor
RiderOfEternity
Skirmisher
posted 09-06-07 11:39 AM EDT (US)     8 / 39  
Making a Cat and Mice map is even more shameful than playing one

Anyway,
It looks like it may be that most triggers will cause OOS. Remember on the patch notes it says "Certain conditions and effects will be usable online"
Leader of Liquid Fire. Animator Seb C.

One does not simply leave HG
MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 09-06-07 11:44 AM EDT (US)     9 / 39  
It looks like it may be that most triggers will cause OOS. Remember on the patch notes it says "Certain conditions and effects will be usable online"
Triggers are not the cause for the OOS, or at least the problem is not consistent.

Read the Custom Scenarios Online Issues thread for more information.
My AOE3 Scenarios:
Strategic Objectives: Death Valley / Strategic Objectives: Russo-Turkish Wars
The Tapir Witch Chronicles: Immortal Cows – Single Player / Multiplayer
“Annihilation” 2V2 (Supremacy) Multiplayer / Tribe Wars (2V2/FFA) Multiplayer
Strategic Objectives: Islands / Forest Domination II Multiplayer / Geronimo’s Revenge
More Scenarios / http://www.moshelevi.com

[This message has been edited by MosheLevi (edited 09-06-2007 @ 11:45 AM).]

Mephiles
Skirmisher
(id: Titan602)
posted 09-06-07 04:32 PM EDT (US)     10 / 39  
Usually, OOSs are caused by triggers. I am an expert on these things. I know more than all of you about it! I'm a multiplayer scenario designer for AoMTT and online scenarios are exactly the same except yours are more buggy and randomly OoS for no reason.
MEPH
[Insert amazingly witty signature here.]

Me and Yeebaagooon's scenarios | Download The Corruptor
MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 09-06-07 04:45 PM EDT (US)     11 / 39  
Usually, OOSs are caused by triggers. I am an expert on these things. I know more than all of you about it! I'm a multiplayer scenario designer for AoMTT and online scenarios are exactly the same except yours are more buggy and randomly OoS for no reason.
I am curious to know – how do you explain the fact that the same scenario sometimes get OOS and sometimes it works just fine.
Things like that happen for a reason and just because it seems to be random doesn’t mean that it is random.

It also always happens in the first 10 seconds and never after that – why?
My AOE3 Scenarios:
Strategic Objectives: Death Valley / Strategic Objectives: Russo-Turkish Wars
The Tapir Witch Chronicles: Immortal Cows – Single Player / Multiplayer
“Annihilation” 2V2 (Supremacy) Multiplayer / Tribe Wars (2V2/FFA) Multiplayer
Strategic Objectives: Islands / Forest Domination II Multiplayer / Geronimo’s Revenge
More Scenarios / http://www.moshelevi.com

[This message has been edited by MosheLevi (edited 09-06-2007 @ 04:47 PM).]

TartarianCerberus
Skirmisher
(id: Cerberus_001)
posted 09-06-07 07:57 PM EDT (US)     12 / 39  
Because AoM is better than AoEIII?
Cerberus- The three headed guard dog who guards the entrance to Hades; son of Typhon.
pftq
Skirmisher
posted 09-06-07 08:08 PM EDT (US)     13 / 39  
It looks like it may be that most triggers will cause OOS. Remember on the patch notes it says "Certain conditions and effects will be usable online"
Fort Wars uses thousands of triggers - no OOS. It even has custom made triggers coded into the script.

You guys forget that triggers and custom maps have been here since Day 1. It is only now that maps made in the editor can be played. If scenarios are to cause OOS, it would not be simply from the use of triggers, which have been in use in custom maps all this time. It would be something wrong with the scenario itself.

Now there are certain effects/conditions that cause OOS, namely those that do not specify a player, but they are a minority... certainly not most.
AOE3 Maps: Fort Wars, Castle Blood, AOE3Racer, Cannon Fodder, No Rush Maps, Observer Maps
More AoM/E3 Stuff: Fort Wars Ladder, Castle Blood Ladder, Advanced Triggers Set
<- - ( pq - a pftq production ) - - >
Elpea
Hal
(id: lp_usa)
posted 09-06-07 08:48 PM EDT (US)     14 / 39  
You must likely ran across one of the triggers that cause OOS. They're not consistent as they depend on the player's previous and future games. Some triggers may affect future games, some may be affected by past games.

IIRC the game loads the XML files into memory before the game starts, some triggers affect loaded objects and don't reset them back (for memory saving reasons perhaps). Then those changes get passed on to future games you play, and since you're running on a different object set, you'll go out of sync.

I may be completely wrong, but from my studies/guesses that's the problem.
MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 09-06-07 09:16 PM EDT (US)     15 / 39  
IIRC the game loads the XML files into memory before the game starts, some triggers affect loaded objects and don't reset them back (for memory saving reasons perhaps). Then those changes get passed on to future games you play, and since you're running on a different object set, you'll go out of sync.
I think Elpea is on to something.

Last night when I tested my scenarios online they loaded fine the first 5 or 6 times.
Then later on I got the OOS every single time.

I also noticed that the first time the scenario was loaded was the longest.
Later on I updated my scenario before trying it again and it loaded the scenario faster.
Then after a few times of repeating this process I got the OOS.

After several tries I exited AOE3 and restarted it.
The load time was longer again but this time there was no OOS.

Another point to mention is that the first time I got the OOS was when I added 30 Convert effects to 300-400 units at the start of the scenario.
I am not sure about this but it is possible that high number of effects being executed at the start of the scenario can cause OOS.

All my OOS were at the first 10 seconds.

So it may be a good idea to spread out the initial triggers and not to execute too many at the start of the scenario.
My AOE3 Scenarios:
Strategic Objectives: Death Valley / Strategic Objectives: Russo-Turkish Wars
The Tapir Witch Chronicles: Immortal Cows – Single Player / Multiplayer
“Annihilation” 2V2 (Supremacy) Multiplayer / Tribe Wars (2V2/FFA) Multiplayer
Strategic Objectives: Islands / Forest Domination II Multiplayer / Geronimo’s Revenge
More Scenarios / http://www.moshelevi.com
pftq
Skirmisher
posted 09-07-07 01:34 AM EDT (US)     16 / 39  
That is old news...

We figured out that out a long while ago. The only trigger I know of that does that is the config type trigger (usermade) - which used to be popular because people used it to disable autoformations (autogrouping of units).

No one should be using that anymore though... many better alternatives and it's been stated numerous times to cause OOS.
AOE3 Maps: Fort Wars, Castle Blood, AOE3Racer, Cannon Fodder, No Rush Maps, Observer Maps
More AoM/E3 Stuff: Fort Wars Ladder, Castle Blood Ladder, Advanced Triggers Set
<- - ( pq - a pftq production ) - - >

[This message has been edited by pftq (edited 09-07-2007 @ 01:35 AM).]

MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 09-07-07 02:46 AM EDT (US)     17 / 39  
That is old news...
Which part is old news?

Many of us here know nothing of this “old news”.
Maybe you can tell us a little bit more about OOS, what causes it, and how to avoid it?
My AOE3 Scenarios:
Strategic Objectives: Death Valley / Strategic Objectives: Russo-Turkish Wars
The Tapir Witch Chronicles: Immortal Cows – Single Player / Multiplayer
“Annihilation” 2V2 (Supremacy) Multiplayer / Tribe Wars (2V2/FFA) Multiplayer
Strategic Objectives: Islands / Forest Domination II Multiplayer / Geronimo’s Revenge
More Scenarios / http://www.moshelevi.com
Paperfriend
Skirmisher
posted 09-07-07 09:21 AM EDT (US)     18 / 39  
Well, it probaly is similair to AoM, so you might as well read this:
http://aom.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=13,25329,0,all
http://aom.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=13,16850,,all

Of course, AoE3 does seem to be less stable , Mephiles can most certainly trigger a map correctly.

Good luck.
Yes, periods and smileys are the same for me
No matter what you say
MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 09-07-07 09:31 AM EDT (US)     19 / 39  

Thank you Paperfriend for the links.

This is very good information.

I think that the “Run Immediately” triggers at the beginning of the scenario are a major contributors to the OOS.
It’s best to avoid them as much as possible.
My AOE3 Scenarios:
Strategic Objectives: Death Valley / Strategic Objectives: Russo-Turkish Wars
The Tapir Witch Chronicles: Immortal Cows – Single Player / Multiplayer
“Annihilation” 2V2 (Supremacy) Multiplayer / Tribe Wars (2V2/FFA) Multiplayer
Strategic Objectives: Islands / Forest Domination II Multiplayer / Geronimo’s Revenge
More Scenarios / http://www.moshelevi.com
Mephiles
Skirmisher
(id: Titan602)
posted 09-07-07 11:15 AM EDT (US)     20 / 39  
Wow, you guys have a lot to learn about scenario designing in multiplayer. It might take about a year for you to figure it out but until then, you must suffer and learn.
It also always happens in the first 10 seconds and never after that – why?
Because the game is being gay. ES have released an unstable patch and now we must wait till patch 13.
MEPH
[Insert amazingly witty signature here.]

Me and Yeebaagooon's scenarios | Download The Corruptor
Elpea
Hal
(id: lp_usa)
posted 09-07-07 03:40 PM EDT (US)     21 / 39  
I believe if Moshelevi keeps up his good work we'll be done in a month or two .

I'd try restarting the game every time after/before a game and see if you still get OoS errors.
We figured out that out a long while ago. The only trigger I know of that does that is the config type trigger (usermade) - which used to be popular because people used it to disable autoformations (autogrouping of units).
I didn't remember what effect was causing that when we found it, but I thought since this has the same symptoms it would be the same cause.

[This message has been edited by Elpea (edited 09-07-2007 @ 03:42 PM).]

pftq
Skirmisher
posted 09-07-07 09:53 PM EDT (US)     22 / 39  
The symptoms are exactly that. Config changes also reset after shutting down the game. Out of Sync occuring within the beginning of the game has always been a distinguishing characteristic of this kind of OOS.
I think that the “Run Immediately” triggers at the beginning of the scenario are a major contributors to the OOS.
It’s best to avoid them as much as possible.
Nonsense, every RM map I've made uses numerous Run Immediately effects. Of course, if you set every trigger you have to Active+ Run Immediately, something will break but that goes for anything you do. Put 9999 effects in one trigger and you'll probably OOS or crash your game as well.

Old news:
Why Move to Self is better than Auto Formations OFF
Warning: Disabling Autoformations Cause OOS

I've posted numerous times in other threads as well when OOS came up - unfortunately the search engine only checks the topic titles.
AOE3 Maps: Fort Wars, Castle Blood, AOE3Racer, Cannon Fodder, No Rush Maps, Observer Maps
More AoM/E3 Stuff: Fort Wars Ladder, Castle Blood Ladder, Advanced Triggers Set
<- - ( pq - a pftq production ) - - >

[This message has been edited by pftq (edited 09-07-2007 @ 09:55 PM).]

MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 09-08-07 08:20 AM EDT (US)     23 / 39  
Wow, you guys have a lot to learn about scenario designing in multiplayer. It might take about a year for you to figure it out but until then, you must suffer and learn.
If you have more information about OOS causes then please post them in this thread.
We can use your help.
Put 9999 effects in one trigger and you'll probably OOS or crash your game as well.
pftq, Yes, I was wondering about this one.
I do have several triggers with 30+ effects at the start of my scenarios (probably 100-200 effects) total.

If we split these triggers to several riggers where each one of them have a timer condition (e.g. 1 sec, 2 sec and so on), do you think this will help?
My AOE3 Scenarios:
Strategic Objectives: Death Valley / Strategic Objectives: Russo-Turkish Wars
The Tapir Witch Chronicles: Immortal Cows – Single Player / Multiplayer
“Annihilation” 2V2 (Supremacy) Multiplayer / Tribe Wars (2V2/FFA) Multiplayer
Strategic Objectives: Islands / Forest Domination II Multiplayer / Geronimo’s Revenge
More Scenarios / http://www.moshelevi.com

[This message has been edited by MosheLevi (edited 09-08-2007 @ 08:24 AM).]

Paperfriend
Skirmisher
posted 09-08-07 01:51 PM EDT (US)     24 / 39  
It would, good for ordering your effects also

For example, I always put Set Tech Status, Modify Protounit and Change Name in seperate sections, which helps a lot if you need to delete/change one.
If you have more information about OOS causes then please post them in this thread.
We can use your help.
I doubt it will take as long as Mephiles says, but it will be frustrating, many AoM designers are great singleplayer scenario designers, but struggle at multiplayer because they don't know what does and does not work.

It really are different worlds, and you only got the chance to try one so far.
It is just a matter of time and will, also be sure to get a nice playtest buddy, and playtest your scenarios online once in a while, don't finish it and then test

It just gives a mess and a lot of extra work.
Yes, periods and smileys are the same for me
No matter what you say
MosheLevi
Scenario Contest Winner
posted 09-08-07 09:19 PM EDT (US)     25 / 39  
also be sure to get a nice playtest buddy
Yes, online scenarios are harder to test because you need one more person to help you test.

I was unable to find someone to help me test for several hours, so I ended up testing my online scenarios with my two accounts from both of my computers.
It worked out pretty well.
playtest your scenarios online once in a while, don't finish it and then test
That is a good advice.
This will also help to identify triggers that cause OOS.
My AOE3 Scenarios:
Strategic Objectives: Death Valley / Strategic Objectives: Russo-Turkish Wars
The Tapir Witch Chronicles: Immortal Cows – Single Player / Multiplayer
“Annihilation” 2V2 (Supremacy) Multiplayer / Tribe Wars (2V2/FFA) Multiplayer
Strategic Objectives: Islands / Forest Domination II Multiplayer / Geronimo’s Revenge
More Scenarios / http://www.moshelevi.com

[This message has been edited by MosheLevi (edited 09-08-2007 @ 09:21 PM).]

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